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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Sumoning magic needs some changes
Thread: Sumoning magic needs some changes This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
Mystic_Genie
Mystic_Genie


Adventuring Hero
posted August 19, 2007 01:36 PM

Poll Question:
Sumoning magic needs some changes

I thinck evrione agrees that sumoning magick is mest up,and some of the skills are no bether so I'm ascking what changes would you make.These are my changes for the spells
L1:Fist of Wrath (alwais helpful versus black dragon)
  Sumone ilusion(H4 version and worcks on enemy)
L2:Conjure earth or air elemental(sumones air or earth elem)
  rase dead
L3:Conjure fire or water elemental(sumones fire or water elem)
  eart quake  
L4:Wasp swarm(still do damage, skips turns and reduce the atb value)(at master skips 2 turns)
  Spiritual revenge(all creatures receves damage depending on nr of dead creatures)(enemy dead stack will not atack enemy creatures)(does not worck on elem and mec,but does worck on undead)
L5:Sumone fenix
  Arcane armor
And I also want to change 4 skills.Instead of the 3 masters I would now put:
 master of elementals(I thinck you know witch spells);
 master of life (for sumone fenix and wasp swarm);
 master of death(for rase dead andspiritual revenge);
The last change is for elemental balance wich actuly alows you to chose wich elem you sumon.

P.S.I didn't read all the threads and I apologise if this isn't an original idea.

Responses:
I licke sumoning magic
I hate sumoning magic(what would you change)
 View Results!

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xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 19, 2007 01:46 PM

Agreed. I only choose summoning for the phoenix...

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GenieLord
GenieLord


Honorable
Legendary Hero
posted August 19, 2007 01:53 PM
Edited by GenieLord at 13:53, 19 Aug 2007.

I don't think there's a need to change them. If you do think they should be changed, please explain exactly why, becuase I didn't understand it from your explanation. Anyway, can please you explain what is your direction? To make them stronger or weaker? Do they think they are overpowered or underpowered?

Quote:
L1:Fist of Wrath (alwais helpful versus black dragon)
 Sumone ilusion(H4 version and worcks on enemy)
I actually think that Fire Trap is a very useful spell in the creeping. I use it a lot.
Quote:
L2:Conjure earth or air elemental(sumones air or earth elem)
 rase dead
L3:Conjure fire or water elemental(sumones fire or water elem)
 eart quake

Might be a very good idea to split the Elementals, though they are on the same level, so both need to be 4th level spells.
Quote:
L4:Wasp swarm(still do damage, skips turns and reduce the atb value)(at master skips 2 turns)
 Spiritual revenge(all creatures receves damage depending on nr of dead creatures)(enemy dead stack will not atack enemy creatures)(does not worck on elem and mec,but does worck on undead)

Why do we need Wasp Swarm on 4th level?

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted August 19, 2007 02:25 PM

I agree that Summoning could do with some buffing, but some of these suggestions would probably not work very well. Summon Illusion was wickedly overpowered and would not do at level 1. Firetrap is an excellent level 1 spell, so don't let go of that. Summon Elementals should probably remain as one spell, but maybe at level 3 - Phantom Forces could be pushed to level 4. Wasp Swarm sits fine at level 2, and I like the idea of ATB reduction rather than skipping turn, goes well with the H5 system. Moving it to level 4 would probably not do with the low damage.
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Tenaka
Tenaka


Famous Hero
Makes sense
posted August 19, 2007 04:09 PM

Summoning isn't that bad...People just need to learn to appreciate and use it better...
The only buffing that necessary is maybe a slight buff to Wasp Swarm, and some fixes with the 'Master of' abilities...That's what I think, at least.
____________
Houseism of the week:
As fascinating as our bodies are, they're also stupid.

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Daystar
Daystar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
posted August 19, 2007 05:46 PM
Edited by Daystar at 23:36, 19 Aug 2007.

Lvl 1:
Fist of Wrath
Fire Trap
Summon Mana: Summons Mana for a Hero.  Mana summoned = SP.  Cost = 1/3 of SP.
Summon Health: Heals a creature.  

Lvl 2:
Wasp Swarm
Raise Dead
Call to Arms: During town seige, the player can summon deffenders from the town to help the army.  They will be level 1.
Portal: Creates 2 portals on the feild.  Any creature that passes through one will be teleported to the other one.  If multiple portals exist, creatures go to any location at random.  Portals must be at least 2 tiles away from objects or the side of the battlefeild.  Expert summoning magic required to make portals over castle walls.

Lvl 3:
Phantom Forces
Earthquake
Grab Weapon: Hero steals one random artifact from the enemy.
Bench: Creates an Astral Bench that pushes a creature backwards (SP tiles) This can mean they go off the Battlefield.  If they hit creatures, they will push them over (left or right) and will take extra damage if they hit obstacles (which stops the benching)

Lvl 4:
Firewall
Summon Elementals
Grave: Direct oposite of Raise Dead, works on enemy creatures.
Summon Obstacles: Creates obstacles on the Battlefeild.

Lvl 5:
Conjure Phoenix
Arcane Armor
Mass Raise Dead: Self Explanitory
Summon Hero: Summons the nearest Allied Hero.  They get added standing on the oposite side of the battlefeild to the hero (on the right), with all their creatures on the battlefeild.  After the battle they are summoned back.  Spell can only be used once per side.
____________
How exactly is luck a skill?

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted August 20, 2007 12:27 AM

Quote:
Mass Raise Dead: Self Explanitory




With that spell, I would certainly do an online game vs. Elvin as Necromancer, just to be able to write PWNED!!!!! to him when I used it.

This would be my suggestions:


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Daystar
Daystar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
posted August 20, 2007 12:54 AM

I remember that pic!

feels like the good old days.
____________
How exactly is luck a skill?

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dschingi
dschingi


Famous Hero
the guy with the dragon golem
posted August 20, 2007 02:13 AM

There are some good suggestions here. For the spells in the game I would suggest these changes:
-Fist of Wraith: Increase the damage a little bit
-Earthquake: add damage to creatures, stunning effect or replace the spell completely... Or let obstacles like fissures appear after casting it, that would be nice for creeping
-Summon Elementals: like suggested, let the player decide where they appear on the battlefield. Another possibility to buff it - Increasing the number of summoned units would be nice as well (like 3/sp at expert level)

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted August 20, 2007 09:31 AM
Edited by alcibiades at 09:33, 20 Aug 2007.

Quote:
I remember that pic!

feels like the good old days.


This is from a later revised model, but yes, a lot of it is the same.

Quote:
There are some good suggestions here. For the spells in the game I would suggest these changes:
-Fist of Wraith: Increase the damage a little bit


People often overlook the potential of this spell, imo. At Expert mastery, Fist of Wrath does 10 x Power + 50 damage. Eldritch Arrow does 8 x Power + 72. For anybody with Power > 11 (and w/o Empowered Spells), Fist Of Wrath will actually do more damage than Eldritch Arrow.

Quote:
-Earthquake: add damage to creatures, stunning effect or replace the spell completely... Or let obstacles like fissures appear after casting it, that would be nice for creeping.


Brilliant idea.

Quote:
-Summon Elementals: like suggested, let the player decide where they appear on the battlefield. Another possibility to buff it - Increasing the number of summoned units would be nice as well (like 3/sp at expert level)


Again, I really like this idea. Making it work like Gating would increase the potential of this spell by huge amounts. Suddenly, those Earth Elementals could be of great use!
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Daystar
Daystar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
posted August 20, 2007 01:06 PM

Agreed.  I also would like a skill that lets you keep your elementals after combat.
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How exactly is luck a skill?

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted August 20, 2007 01:28 PM

That would be imba. like **** ... You could go against neutrals and hoard massive amounts of Elementals in no time and then completely pawn opponents by the end of first month.
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Mystic_Genie
Mystic_Genie


Adventuring Hero
posted August 20, 2007 02:26 PM

To GenieLord :The ideea came wen I saw in some threads that plaiers don't licke sumoning because thei thinck it's underpowered,so I wonderd what they don't licke and how would they improve them

I do however hate some of the spels couse they are eiver hard to control or just pafetic:

Fire Trap:I would gladly have the cost doubled or even half the number of mines for the cance to actuly chose were to place it(limit would be the farthest square your creatures can walck),becaus this spell requires a lot of skill (wich I don't have)to briing it to its full potential
Sumone elemental is rarely used because you never now which elem will apear and can't make exact strategi
The reason why i put sumone air and earth at level 2 is because on a 1 on 1 fight fire and water wins every time(even against the earth elem for water)and also I find them more efective.
I had to put wasp swarm because if it was a level 2 then what would be the diference betwen it and slow besides a lite extra damage

To alcibiades:It is true tht sumone ilusion is owerpoverd but what about raise dead for necropolis
And seriosuly phantom force is pathetic an it costs to much
Nice skills but unfortunetuly you can only have 3 primary skills

And what I wrote there is how I would have expected sumoning to be (not that I don't licke it ).

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GenieLord
GenieLord


Honorable
Legendary Hero
posted August 20, 2007 02:41 PM
Edited by GenieLord at 14:47, 20 Aug 2007.

Quote:
To alcibiades:It is true tht sumone ilusion is owerpoverd but what about raise dead for necropolis
And seriosuly phantom force is pathetic an it costs to much
Nice skills but unfortunetuly you can only have 3 primary skill

1. Raise Dead spell with Necropolis isn't overpowered at all.
Actually, it is one of the things that make Necropolis balanced.
2. Phantom Force is a very powerful spell, if you know how to use it well.
Cast it on a shotter or a caster (no retalition, so no chance that it will be gone right after it attacked). If you cast it on a caster, you will be able to cast spells again, and you will have full mana, even if the creature you duplicated doesn't have. That's terrific. The best thing is the Incorporeal ability it has. It cannot get damage, it can only evade or begone. If the enemy misses, you can hit him swice (with both creatures), and if the duplication dies, the enemy wastes a turn (it might take more than 1, and untill then, the duplication can attack). So anyway, you have nothing to lose with this spell. Either you hit the enemy or he missed some turn (or both!)

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Mystic_Genie
Mystic_Genie


Adventuring Hero
posted August 20, 2007 05:15 PM

Quote:
Phantom Force is a very powerful spell, if you know how to use it well.
Cast it on a shotter or a caster (no retalition, so no chance that it will be gone right after it attacked). If you cast it on a caster, you will be able to cast spells again, and you will have full mana, even if the creature you duplicated doesn't have. That's terrific. The best thing is the Incorporeal ability it has. It cannot get damage, it can only evade or begone. If the enemy misses, you can hit him swice (with both creatures), and if the duplication dies, the enemy wastes a turn (it might take more than 1, and untill then, the duplication can attack). So anyway, you have nothing to lose with this spell. Either you hit the enemy or he missed some turn (or both!)

True but there is one foll prof way to tacke doun a phantome force,a spell.here are the spell that you can use:all destructive magick,fists of rath,fire trap,fire wall,earthquacke with tremors and wasp swarm,most of them being almoast 3 times cheaper.And even if by some mirecale he has none of the spels it still ends by luck weater incorperal will worck or not and i don't licke to depend to much onluck.That's why i licke H4 sumone ilusion and phantome image more (even with out the mana).

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Tenaka
Tenaka


Famous Hero
Makes sense
posted August 20, 2007 05:44 PM

...So, basically, if you assume the enemy doesn't have any creatures that can cast destructive (Archmages, for instance), your enemy hero wastes a turn on a phantom? That's still pretty good...It's in fact just an expensive counterspell.
Oh, and can Firetraps appear under creatures? I don't think so, so that spell gets ruled out with shooters/casters...

As for the elementals, they all have different priorities. If you need a tank for covering your shooters, earth's the man. But against golems, sommunng a water elemental isn't a vey good choice. Same for gargoyles. Fire is of course a useful shooter, and air comes in handy for blocking neutral shooters. I'm pretty happy with the current situation and spell. I use it quite often when fighting neutrals. (With academy, so the 17 mana cost is nothing. )

The difference between slow and wasp swarm is that wasp swarm reduces the target's ATB value by 0.2,0.4,0.6 respectively with basic, advanced and expert mastery. (Immediate effect) While slow just lowers the initiative. (The rate at wich the ATB value increases. The only boost it should really have is possibly a small SP multiplier. Nothing big, Just so you maybe don't always have to have the mastery? Not sure though, it's still quite powerful.
Oh, and you can cast slow in 'mass' version.

And firetrap doesn't necessarily require a lot of skill. If your target's at the side of the battlefeld - slow neutrals that act after your hero, for instance - You can reduce the possible places by a lot. Somteimes even by so much that you're 100% sure of their postion! Not sure if you actually need any skill with it, if you remember that, and that they can't spawn under creatures...It's mostly luck, I think. Is there any pattern the mines follow?
____________
Houseism of the week:
As fascinating as our bodies are, they're also stupid.

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The_Gootch
The_Gootch


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
posted August 20, 2007 09:02 PM

How about a +50% damage artie for Magic Fist and Wasp Swarm?  It's minor but helpful and I certainly wouldn't curse the gods if my Academy or Necro hero started with it.

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Tenaka
Tenaka


Famous Hero
Makes sense
posted August 20, 2007 10:00 PM
Edited by Tenaka at 22:00, 20 Aug 2007.

Yes, Fist of wrath could use a bonus...The idea of breaking through magical immunity is good, but if I really want to kill those black dragons, I'll just buff my own troops, or attack them directly with my hero...The latter does actuall inflict more damage except with warlocks. (Who rarely get the spell...)
And a small damage bonus to Wasp swarm would be nice, too! So a thumbs up for the damage artie!

I've also thought of a formula for the wasp's ATB reduction:
ATB reduction=0.02 x spellpower + Mastery bonus*

*Basic: 0.2, Advanced: 0.4, Experts: 0.6


____________
Houseism of the week:
As fascinating as our bodies are, they're also stupid.

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Daystar
Daystar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
posted August 20, 2007 10:13 PM

Ring of Reinforcements: Combo artifact: Shackles/?/?

As well as other things, SP number of gated/summoned creatures stay in your army.
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How exactly is luck a skill?

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Tenaka
Tenaka


Famous Hero
Makes sense
posted August 20, 2007 10:18 PM

Quote:
That would be imba. like **** ... You could go against neutrals and hoard massive amounts of Elementals in no time and then completely pawn opponents by the end of first month.


I'm afraid I'll have to agree with alcibiades here. Well, he might give me QP for it.
No, jk, but it'd be definitely imba, Daystar. Unless you'd have to cut it down to such a low number that it'd be pretty useless...Imegine fighting against zombies...You could let them chase after a fast unit, and just keep summoning elementals. (And with academy and their sea of mana, that's possible...Especially with Nur, who just reloads during combat. )
____________
Houseism of the week:
As fascinating as our bodies are, they're also stupid.

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