Next Thursday is the 60th birthday of Israel. The need of having a state for the Jews, the conflict between Israel and the Pelstinians, etc, flow to other topics here in the OSM all the time, I thought that opening a new thread which refers only to those matters may do good.
Celebrating 60 years commercial:
Now I would like to give you some background. Only facts, without any of my opinion. I put in the following only the most important events. I may add more later.
1947: The UN offers a partition plan, to devide the country between the Israelis and the Arabs. According to the plan, Jerusalem is an international area, the Jews get the sea shore, the Negev desert, Half of Jehuda desert, Izrael valley, the Kineret and the Finger of the Galil. The Arabs get Jehuda and Shomron area, Gaza strip, some parts of the Negev desert, half Jehuda desert, and the Galil.
The Jews agreed to the plan, but the arabs didn't. They attacked the Jews in the morning after this plan was announced, and that's how the War of Independence started.
1948: David Ben-Guryon declared independence in the areas that the UN gave it according to the partition plan (the declaration can be seen in the video, the first part). In the day after the declaration the armies of Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Jordan and Iraq attacked Israel.
1949: Israel wins the War of Independence. Its new borders are:
[The West Bank is in the control of Jordan, Gaza strip in the control of Egypt]
1967: Syria bombarded small Israeli towns from the Golan. Jordan, Syria and Egypt created alliance agaisnt Israel, blocked straits with battle ships, put soldiers on the borders, and Egypt brought its army to Sinai peninsula (against the agreement signed with Israel in 1957), and in reaction Israel attacked Egypt, Syria, and Jordan. This war is called the "Six-Days War", since Israel won in 6 days. Israel captured the Golan, the West Bank (including east Jerusalem) and Sinai peninsula.
Israel's size before the war: 20,000 km^2.
After the War: 62,000 km^2.
1973: Syria and Egypt attacked Israel together, surprisingly. The Israel intelligence failed to get information about this attack, and it was a total shock for Israel. Israel won the Syria and Egypt, and managed to keep its borders.
1979: Menachem Begin, the Prime Minister of Israel in those years, signed peace with Egypt. For the peace, Israel gave Egypt the Sinai peninsula back. Egypt insisted that Israel would take Gaza strip, and Israel agreed.
Israel's borders, from the peace treaty with Egypt until today:
1982: After the assassination of the Israel ambassador in UK, by Palestinians from Ashaf organization, that had a large force in Lebanon, Israel decided to go to a liminted operation in South Lebanon, "Galil's Peace Operation", but the operation developing into a long war that lasted 18 years, until 2000. The Israeli army captured all south lebanon (from the border with Israel to Beirut, Lebanon's capital), but after a while it went back down from there, and only in 2000, it got back to the international border.
1987: The first Intifada starts. Palestinian suicide bombers started attacking Israeli citizens. It ended in 1991, and in 1993, the leaders of both sides signed the Oslo agreement, which was dismissed in 2000, by the Palestinians.
2000: Al-Aktza Intifada (AKA the second Intifada) starts, by Yasser Arafat, the same person who signed the Oslo agreement. This Intifada also included shooting rockets on the towns around Gaza strip. Israel manages to foil almost all the suicide bombers' attacks already 2-4 years, so some say that the Intifada ended in 2004, some say that in 2006, when Hamas was chosen as the ruler party of the Palestinian Authority, but rockets are being shot on cities around Gaza srtip today also.
Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
posted May 02, 2008 04:51 PM
60 years only ?
Has anyone noticed how a tiny middle-eastern country had grown into a powerfull Nuclear power under the wings of the USA ? Forget China, Israel has had the largest economical Growth in the past 100 years. Luckily war with Israel in rather unlikely. It's a force to be reckoned with.
I am positively impressed
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
Has anyone noticed how a tiny middle-eastern country had grown into a powerfull Nuclear power under the wings of the USA ? Forget China, Israel has had the largest economical Growth in the past 100 years. Luckily war with Israel in rather unlikely. It's a force to be reckoned with.
I am positively impressed
Thank you. Indeed, Israel started from nothing and has become a modern state. There are many people that we can thank to, but I think was their cooperation. About the nuclear power of Israel, I wrote a post here that I want you to read. It was given to us by France, by the way, not by USA.
I want to add that in 1949, after we had won the Independence war, David Ben-Goryon invited all the arabs to stay in Israel, and to get citizenship like every Jew. Many (not the most, but many) stayed here, and as I said, there is a large community of Israeli Arabs today in Israel. More than a 1.7 million of them.
This is the evening of the Memorial day for Israel's fallen (what means that the Memorial day is tommorow). The day after is the independence day. One day of sadness, and celebrating on the day after... A bit weird.
Anyway, 22,437 people were killed in Israel wars. 1,634 of them are innocent civillians that were killed in terrorist attacks. There was the siren, on 8:00 PM exactly, and will be another one tomorrow on 11:00 AM. On the siren, everyone stands silent for two minutes and think about the fallen. There's a similar siren in the Memorial day for the Holocaust and the bravery, which was a week ago.
Has anyone noticed how a tiny middle-eastern country had grown into a powerfull Nuclear power under the wings of the USA ? Forget China, Israel has had the largest economical Growth in the past 100 years. Luckily war with Israel in rather unlikely. It's a force to be reckoned with.
I am positively impressed
Id just like to mention Israel keeps a policy of nuclear ambiguity.
That is, If you ask about it you get a lot of mumbling. To be honest theres probably nuclear missiles there but they intentionally inflated the numbers in the rumors without officially confirming it.Not like its hard to become a nuclear power though. If you have the uranium its a very simply matter. People woudlnt be so afraid of Iran if it was difficult.
Also, Many Israeli politicians vocally said that Israel would choke on the west bank and the gaza strip, So dont think irs something everyone wanted at the time.
____________
"Am i a demon? No im a priest of the light! THE BLOODY RED LIGHT"
- Saddam, I've been hearing rumors that you're secretly building weapons of mass destruction up here.
- Weapons of mass destruction? No! This is a chocolate chip factory. See?
- It looks like a chemical weapons plant.
- Look, God, if I was gonna secretly build a chemical weapons plant, I wouldn't make it look like a chemical weapons plant, would I? I'd make it look like a chocolate chip factory or something.
- ...Well, alright, carry on then...
- Stupid arsehole.
There's so much to learn from South Park. ____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
Happy birthday Israel. You're officially 60 years old! I celebrated the all night.
Today I went to the battlefield of the independence war. My mother, my sister, my grandfather and I went to the places where my grandfather fought 60 years ago, in the war of independence. Back then, we had no organized army, only few weapons, which were pretty weak, and we won the armies of 7 arab states, which were together 20 times bigger than our army, only by smart tactics (if I start describe them here, it will take a few pages). We met soldiers who serve in the same brigade that my gradfather served back then, and he was seriously their hero, and mostly our hero.
Israel now has a border with Iran. The Hizballa, an Iranian extention, started a revolution and captured Lebanon. They have taken over the government buildings and the sunic neighborhoods.
Quote:Israel now has a border with Iran. The Hizballa, an Iranian extention, started a revolution and captured Lebanon. They have taken over the government buildings and the sunic neighborhoods.
You reap what you sow.
Hezbollah was founded in 1982 in response to the Israeli invasion of Lebanon. Which continued for nearly 20 years.
Quote:Israel now has a border with Iran. The Hizballa, an Iranian extention, started a revolution and captured Lebanon. They have taken over the government buildings and the sunic neighborhoods.
You reap what you sow.
Hezbollah was founded in 1982 in response to the Israeli invasion of Lebanon. Which continued for nearly 20 years.
They were shooting rockets on us!
If Mexican terror organizations would shoot rockets on the South states of USA, wouldn't the American army put an end to that?
BTW: We stayed 18 years only 10 kilometeres from the international border of Israel-Lebanon. We didn't keep entire Lebanon in our hands (what we could have done, since we reached until Beirut, the capital). We kept only what's necessary to make sure they are not shooting rockets on our towns.
"And after mid-1981 the Lebanese-Israeli border was quiet," William Quandt -- a well-known Middle East expert and NSC staffer during the Nixon and Carter administrations -- writes in his history of the "peace process." Quandt's version is the standard one. The "border was quiet" in the sense that the PLO adhered to the cease-fire rigorously while Israel continued its violations: bombing and killing civilians, sinking fishing boats, violating Lebanese air space thousands of times, and carrying out other provocations designed to elicit some PLO reaction that could be used as a pretext for the planned invasion. The border was "quiet" because the crossborder terror was all Israeli, and only Arabs were being killed.
The occasional reports here reflected the common understanding. Thus in April 1982, Israel bombed alleged PLO centers south of Beirut, killing two dozen people, in retaliation for what it called a PLO "terrorist act": an Israeli soldier had been killed when his jeep struck a land-mine in illegally-occupied southern Lebanon. The Washington Post sagely observed that "this is not the moment for sermons to Israel. It is a moment for respect for Israel's anguish -- and for mourning the latest victims of Israeli-Palestinian hostility." Typically, it is Israel's anguish that we must respect when still more Arabs are murdered by Israeli terror, and are thus to be seen as victims of mutual hostility, no agent indicated.
The same attitudes prevail today. H.D.S. Greenway of the Boston Globe, who reported the 1978 invasion graphically, now writes that "If shelling Lebanese villages, even at the cost of lives, and driving civilian refugees north would secure Israel's border, weaken Hizbollah, and promote peace, I would say go to it, as would many Arabs and Israelis. But history has not been kind to Israeli adventures in Lebanon. They have solved very little and have almost always caused more problems," so the murder of civilians, expulsion of hundreds of thousand of refugees, and devastation of the south is a dubious proposition. Can one imagine an article recommending a murderous and destructive attack on Israel, if only it could secure Lebanon's border and promote peace?
Having failed to elicit the desired PLO reaction, Israel simply manufactured a pretext for its long-planned invasion of June 1982, claiming that it was in retaliation for an attempt to assassinate the Israeli Ambassador to London; the attempt, as Israel was aware, was carried out by the terrorist Abu Nidal organization that had been at war with the PLO for years and did not so much as have an office in Lebanon.
The actual reasons for the 1982 invasion have never been concealed in Israel, though they are rated "X" here. A few weeks after the invasion began, Israel's leading academic specialist on the Palestinians, Yehoshua Porath, pointed out that the decision to invade "flowed from the very fact that the cease-fire had been observed" by the PLO, a "veritable catastrophe" for the Israeli government because it endangered the policy of evading a political settlement. The PLO was gaining respectability thanks to its preference for negotiations over terror. The Israeli government's hope, therefore, was to compel "the stricken PLO" to "return to its earlier terrorism," thus "undercutting the danger" of negotiations. As Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir later stated, Israel went to war because there was "a terrible danger.... Not so much a military one as a political one." The invasion was intended to "undermine the position of the moderates within [the PLO] ranks" and thus to block" the PLO `peace offensive'" and "to halt [the PLO's] rise to political respectability" (strategic analyst Avner Yaniv); it should be called "the war to safeguard the occupation of the West Bank," having been motivated by Begin's "fear of the momentum of the peace process," according to Israeli Arabist and former head of military intelligence Gen. Yehoshaphat Harkabi.
The writings are not mine, but of Noam Chomsky. There is much more to the matter, but I don't want to flood the board. You can read more here
The border wasn't quiet a year before the war when Ashaf organization in south lebanon had shot rockets on Israeli towns.
The border wasn't quiet a year before the war two friends of my parents were killed in their livingroom, watching TV, by a rocket of Ashaf orgnization.
The border wasn't quiet a year before the war when hundreds of other people were killed, by rockets of Ashaf, in their houses.
The border was quiet when Israel tried to avoid war and signed a cease-fire with Ahsaf.
The border was quiet when Ashaf decided that the cease-fire is valid only around the border, and attacked the Jews in Europe.
The border was quiet when Ashaf decided that the cease-fire is valid only around the border, and exploded a sungagoue full of people in Vina, Austria.
The border wasn't quiet anymore after the assassination of the Israeli ambassador in UK. That was the straw that broke the camel's back, and Israel attacked.
There was a nice rally here in montreal. Attracted some 16,000-20,000 people to celebrate Israels independence.
Well everyone cotnradicts each other on the subject, But the fact is that the PLO certainly wasnt always peaceful. Today the only reason its not commiting to serious attacks is that its a joke.
Oh. And Noam chomsky. He is not the most neutral (or even remotely neutral) source i could think of. There are people who make serious money or recieve political influence for critisizing Israel you know.
____________
"Am i a demon? No im a priest of the light! THE BLOODY RED LIGHT"
Quote:
Oh. And Noam chomsky. He is not the most neutral (or even remotely neutral) source i could think of. There are people who make serious money or recieve political influence for critisizing Israel you know.
Rather than attacking the writer, attack the claims.
Quote:
Oh. And Noam chomsky. He is not the most neutral (or even remotely neutral) source i could think of. There are people who make serious money or recieve political influence for critisizing Israel you know.
Rather than attacking the writer, attack the claims.
I showed it to my mother and she just started laughing. And yes, this is a woman whose doctorate is about this subject.
Quote:There was a nice rally here in montreal. Attracted some 16,000-20,000 people to celebrate Israels independence.
Quote:And after mid-1981 the Lebanese-Israeli border was quiet," William Quandt -- a well-known Middle East expert and NSC staffer during the Nixon and Carter administrations -- writes in his history of the "peace process." Quandt's version is the standard one. The "border was quiet" in the sense that the PLO adhered to the cease-fire rigorously while Israel continued its violations: bombing and killing civilians, sinking fishing boats, violating Lebanese air space thousands of times, and carrying out other provocations designed to elicit some PLO reaction that could be used as a pretext for the planned invasion. The border was "quiet" because the crossborder terror was all Israeli, and only Arabs were being killed.
I can only say i dont believe it one bit. Mentioning "countless atrocities" does not mean anything. Mention individual ones if you want but before that its not really valid. but more so the motive is ridicolous. And to say that only arabs were being killed. Is a rather extreme denial or twisting of facts.
Quote:The occasional reports here reflected the common understanding. Thus in April 1982, Israel bombed alleged PLO centers south of Beirut, killing two dozen people, in retaliation for what it called a PLO "terrorist act": an Israeli soldier had been killed when his jeep struck a land-mine in illegally-occupied southern Lebanon. The Washington Post sagely observed that "this is not the moment for sermons to Israel. It is a moment for respect for Israel's anguish -- and for mourning the latest victims of Israeli-Palestinian hostility." Typically, it is Israel's anguish that we must respect when still more Arabs are murdered by Israeli terror, and are thus to be seen as victims of mutual hostility, no agent indicated.
Why does Israel need a casus belii when a terrorist organization doesnt? If Israel feels its strategic value is in attacking a PLO center which its in a state of war in , it certainly can do it. remember that "alleged" doesnt mean NOT , Alleged is very often a twisting of words to make you think that its "not" when it in fact is.
Quote:The same attitudes prevail today. H.D.S. Greenway of the Boston Globe, who reported the 1978 invasion graphically, now writes that "If shelling Lebanese villages, even at the cost of lives, and driving civilian refugees north would secure Israel's border, weaken Hizbollah, and promote peace, I would say go to it, as would many Arabs and Israelis. But history has not been kind to Israeli adventures in Lebanon. They have solved very little and have almost always caused more problems," so the murder of civilians, expulsion of hundreds of thousand of refugees, and devastation of the south is a dubious proposition. Can one imagine an article recommending a murderous and destructive attack on Israel, if only it could secure Lebanon's border and promote peace?
Except that lebanon is a cosntant time-bobm of civil war , If Israel didnt exist it would almost certainly create another one. But even then "murder" and "expulsion" are vast exxagarations. Many people where caught in a crossfire or under artillery shells, That is considered murder as much as the nuclear bomb dropped on Hiroshima and nagasaki is. Besides that , it still remains their own damn fault for supporting the PLO, When an organization is unhealthy for the country you should scrap it, Not use it as a proxy to atack another country and then hide behind it. And yes civilians die in war . Go figure. Its every countrys duty to make sure its civilians on the other side and its how it shall always remain.There is absoloutly no argument at this in my opinion, If you say in a conflict of interest that the enemy is mroe important then you are , you are blatantly lying or insane.
Quote:Having failed to elicit the desired PLO reaction, Israel simply manufactured a pretext for its long-planned invasion of June 1982, claiming that it was in retaliation for an attempt to assassinate the Israeli Ambassador to London; the attempt, as Israel was aware, was carried out by the terrorist Abu Nidal organization that had been at war with the PLO for years and did not so much as have an office in Lebanon.
Can he prove Israel was well aware? No it seems the standard today to assume Israelis are super-human and deserve all the blame for human mistakes while terrorist organizations can be let off the hook, Sometimes for reasons as trivial as inferior technology.
Quote:
The actual reasons for the 1982 invasion have never been concealed in Israel, though they are rated "X" here. A few weeks after the invasion began, Israel's leading academic specialist on the Palestinians, Yehoshua Porath, pointed out that the decision to invade "flowed from the very fact that the cease-fire had been observed" by the PLO, a "veritable catastrophe" for the Israeli government because it endangered the policy of evading a political settlement. The PLO was gaining respectability thanks to its preference for negotiations over terror. The Israeli government's hope, therefore, was to compel "the stricken PLO" to "return to its earlier terrorism," thus "undercutting the danger" of negotiations. As Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir later stated, Israel went to war because there was "a terrible danger.... Not so much a military one as a political one." The invasion was intended to "undermine the position of the moderates within [the PLO] ranks" and thus to block" the PLO `peace offensive'" and "to halt [the PLO's] rise to political respectability" (strategic analyst Avner Yaniv); it should be called "the war to safeguard the occupation of the West Bank," having been motivated by Begin's "fear of the momentum of the peace process," according to Israeli Arabist and former head of military intelligence Gen. Yehoshaphat Harkabi.
Why is it because its a Israeli "acedemic" it means that it must be legitimate? If hes an acedemic of palestenians its probably not because he hates them. theres certainly been people from Israel who fabricated stories for money or fame . Besides that the motive is ridicolous, You dont need much intellegence to realize that Israel is going to want to keep a organziation like this with a weakened military infastructure. The mass of text you wrote is mostly a mess of political jargon , It says its because Israel is afraid of peace but not why , Or legitimitize that its a bad thing that the PLO never acheives respectability to simply turn it on Israel later. In fact it never even mentions if the PLOs true desire at all is peace.
In fact its pretty much nonsense that the west bank has any strategic value to Israel, its a dump .The only reason it holds it is to prevent suicide bombers from appearing there and from hamas gaining a foothold. in other words, its a paradox that because hamas wants to use the power of the west bank , It cant be made to have a better existance like they claim they want it to have.
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"Am i a demon? No im a priest of the light! THE BLOODY RED LIGHT"
This thread is pages long: 1 
posted May 02, 2008 04:00 PM
The Hizballa, an Iranian extention, started a revolution and captured Lebanon. They have taken over the government buildings and the sunic neighborhoods.
I'll let people know.
