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| Thread: Minimum Wage |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · NEXT» |
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RedSoxFan3
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posted March 06, 2004 05:37 AM |
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Minimum Wage
Recently I have heard lots of talk about how the minimum wage should be raised. I don't agree with this at all. I think the minimum wage should be kept where it is.
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The_Gootch
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posted March 06, 2004 06:21 AM |
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Your powers of persuasion are simply incredible.
I'm convinced.
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Lews_Therin
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posted March 06, 2004 06:46 AM |
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I agree. 20 Cent/hour is too much already for those kiddies who make Nike shoes.
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Aculias
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posted March 06, 2004 07:11 AM |
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You know how much money we owe, you know we owe millions of dollars & when Clinton was president he was able to balance the debts that is owed, now that Bush Jr is president, now we owe Trillions of dollars.
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hamsi128
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posted March 06, 2004 09:52 AM |
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LOL
enough said 
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Dingo
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posted March 06, 2004 06:55 PM |
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Minimum wage is fine where it is, don't raise it. It would just speed up the rate of inflation.
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RedSoxFan3
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posted March 06, 2004 10:00 PM |
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Thanks for all the spam. But I felt like making my points as a rebuttal, so I will cover my theories on this topic now instead.
Dingo, you are absolutely correct.
Aculias. Slamming Bush has nothing to do with this thread. How soon do you forget about 9/11? And during a recession, you must spend money to get out of the recession. The economy has picked up already and jobs are coming very soon. The only problem with our economy right now is California. The rest of the country is in good shape. I believe that the debt will soon be payed off. Bush will do a great job in these next four years of his presidency. The problem is that you cannot be so short-sighted. Many Americans do this all the time. They always look at what is happening now. They are in love with the quick fix and cannot see down the road.
Now to get back to the minimum wage issue. First of all, the most important part about keeping good jobs, is to have good businesses. By raising the minimum wage, it costs more money for the businesses. Nowadays, most businesses already have a hard enough time, just making a profit. Many local businesses pay teenagers minimum wage. If you were to raise the minimum wage, then you would basically be putting more money into the pockets of teenagers and taking it away from the local businesses. Businesses now are having trouble breaking even or they cannot make as much of a profit.
Now let's look at how businesses operate. Where do their costs come from. They must pay employees. Let's say this is a restaurant. They must buy their food before they can cook it and sell it. So in order to make a profit, the business must either find lay off employees, because they can't pay them. They could buy cheaper food making the quality of the product go down. They could raise the prices of their product. So now let's look at the people who get money from these minimum wage jobs. Now it's harder to find a job and all the things they used to buy are not only more expensive, but the quality has also gone down. I personally don't think that this is in anyway good for the economy or the people working for minimum wage salary.
Why not look at what would happen if we don't raise the minimum wage. Businesses are able to make a greater profit. What things could the business do to be more successful? They could lower the cost of their product to have more competitive prices. They could raise the quality of the product, so that they get more regular customers. These things would increase their business and their profit. And what happens when a business is more active? They need more employees.
So in conclusion, raising the minimum wage, creates fewer jobs, causes an increase in the cost of a product, and takes away from the quality of the product.
Raising the minimum wage is bad.
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Aculias
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posted March 06, 2004 11:10 PM |
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I will never forget 9/11.
I dont think anyone will.
The true fact is that we owe so much money that, for about many yrs were going to be paying alot more then we did in the 90's on groceries,gas,taxes & alot more.
Minimum wage is going up because of those issues of owing so much money that they have to raise up the prices Red.
I mean if we like it or not it has to be that way from owing so much.
Personally i never agree with raising Minimum wage.
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Svarog
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posted March 07, 2004 03:40 AM |
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Edited By: Svarog on 6 Mar 2004
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I’m not surprised to hear this from people who protect big business and multinational companies, without taking care for the common man. While you do have some points, you are not making any connection between the effects you are suggesting and the actions. Why you don’t give explanation for your theories, I cannot say. It is either because you just repeat what you’ve heard form Republican economists, but don’t understand it yourself, or you just didn’t have enough time to elaborate it all, in which case I’m looking forward to, RSF. 
Now, let me analyze your logic a little closer, shall I. Let’s go one by one.
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How soon do you forget about 9/11?
What does 9/11 has to do with any of this? Recession? Because of 9/11? Give me a break.
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And during a recession, you must spend money to get out of the recession.
It depends how you spend it. Plus, there are other more important ways in order to get out of recession.
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The only problem with our economy right now is California.
What? You really think one state is the whole problem the US economy has? How?
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I believe that the debt will soon be payed off.
How? Is there a strong basis to believe this? Explain!
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Bush will do a great job in these next four years of his presidency.
If he gets elected, that is.
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Minimum wage is fine where it is, don't raise it. It would just speed up the rate of inflation.
Not necessarily. By increasing the spending power of low-level consumers one might expect an increase in the demand, pulling also an increase in the production. This surely cannot cause inflation. In addition, the possibility for the potential of the business to be lowered is insubstantional. We cannot surely expect a dramatic shift of minimum wage, meaning no dramatic effects can be expected also. Even so, those potentially negative effects can and should be annihilated by leveling the overall income level in companies.
You mustn’t also forget the fact that the increase of minimum income, will also increase the living standard of many American families. And people will be generally happier.
Let’s take a look at you’re a bit naïve example with the restaurant. (but I understand that you made it simple, in order others to get the idea) As I said, not likely that there will be workers lay-offs. On the contrary, you should expect an increased demand, because now many poorer people can afford to eat in your restaurant. This will even expand your business.
And no smart businessman will lower his quality, if he knows that that will bring him only lower profit than selling high-quality goods.
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They could buy cheaper food making the quality of the product go down. They could raise the prices of their product.
No matter how bad the business goes, these things very rarely happen simultaneously. Anyway, no need for either of these things to happen in our case, because of the increased demand and the redistribution of incomes in between you and your employees.
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What things could the business do to be more successful? They could lower the cost of their product to have more competitive prices.
If so, why this hasn’t happened so far? In fact, if it does happen, that will mean that they don’t make as much profit as they used to, because of the diminished spending power of the consumers. That’s exactly what I’m trying to prevent here.
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They could raise the quality of the product, so that they get more regular customers.
So, according to your economical logic, raising the quality of goods, brings regular customers?! I’d like to see that explained. Also what would motivate anybody “to increase the quality of the product”, as you say, and why haven’t they done it until now? Manipulating quality of goods is not as simple as you may think. It requires complex conditions, in order to happen. If it was all that easy, the world economy would have flourished.
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Minimum wage is going up because of those issues of owing so much money that they have to raise up the prices Red.
This sentence is more absurd than anything I read so far. I’d like the speaker of these words to explain what he means.
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So in conclusion, raising the minimum wage is bad.
In conclusion, raising the minimum wage is NOT bad, because of all the reasons I explained.
PS: Any proffesional economists out there to give me some expert feedback?!
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Khaelo
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posted March 07, 2004 05:04 AM |
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Edited By: Khaelo on 7 Mar 2004
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disclaimer: economics NOT my forte!
...but I'm taking a shot at this anyway.
First, Sept. 11 has nothing to do with this (and I don't think many people, Michael Moore aside, Bush-bash on the basis of 9-11 anyway). What Aculias brings up isn't 9-11 -- it's the deficit. That's relevant insofar as part of the reason we have a deficit of this magnitude now is because Bush lowered taxes. Taxes cuts can only boost the economy if people spend and/or invest the money! Bush's tax cuts went disproportionatly to the wealthy, who are more able to place their cash in "safe" places like bank accounts. Statistically, people with less wealth spend a larger portion of what they have. Also, there are more of them than wealthy people. If there had to be a tax cut, it should have hit the lower economic strata, maybe raising the bar of people who don't have to pay taxes at all and lowering the percentage for those just above the bar. That would have increased the purchasing power of a lot more people.
Raising the minimum wage isn't about teenagers working for spending money (what's your problem with that, anyway? consumerism = economic boost!). The issue's really about the working poor, who have to hold two or three minimum wage jobs just to pay the rent. Their purchasing power right now is pathetic. They are the ones who need help, and some politicians seek to do that by raising the minimum wage.
That said, I'm not convinced raising the minimum wage is the best way to address the problem. In a recession, businesses will chop employees rather than see their own profit hurt.
The $0.20/hour sweatshop workers are the victims of Capitalism Gone Wild in the global market, not domestic issues, correct? Any Third World country that even thought about implementing minimum wage laws would be abandoned by the multinational corporations in a heartbeat...and even $0.20/hour is better than nothing. It's a vicious cycle. 
Edit: cleaned and clarified
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Dingo
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posted March 07, 2004 05:39 AM |
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You mustn’t also forget the fact that the increase of minimum income, will also increase the living standard of many American families. And people will be generally happier.
People will not be generally happier. The only people that will be happier and the ones that make minimum wage. The more wealthy people will not be happy because now there money is worth less.
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RedSoxFan3
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posted March 07, 2004 10:29 AM |
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In my opinion one major reason that the minimum wage is increased, is because of the labor unions. Many labor unions have their workers make a certain amount above the minimum wage. So when the minimum wage is increased the people in the union all get a raise for doing nothing. In my opinion, labor unions that deal with salaries are usually a bad thing. Because you are protected by the union, you are pretty much protected from being fired. A lot of times, workers get paid very well for doing little work. They don't have to do work really hard to keep their job and they get raises for doing nothing. The unions just also happen to support the people that raised the minimum wage.
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Nimrod_The_D...
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posted March 07, 2004 11:14 AM |
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BTW, what is the minimum wage??
In usa, i mean
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Consis
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posted March 07, 2004 11:20 AM |
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Hmm
I'm just listening. So far, each point that I have read is correct. I feel like the debate could go either way because no one here can predict the future. There are simply too many variables involved in economical inflation or deflation. One would have to write a book as thick as the bible to make any sort of closely accurate prediction. Thus far too little has been said. I shall continue to listen...
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Khaelo
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posted March 07, 2004 08:01 PM |
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Edited By: Khaelo on 6 May 2004
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RSF: You are aware of the conditions which prompted the rise of labor unions in the first place, aren't you?! Without anybody to stop them, many employers overwork and underpay their employees. In a tight labor market, there is nothing the workers can do about it. The sweatshop workers Lews mentions are unable to form unions. In the case of certain companies, attempts to form unions are met with armed resistance and assassination of the union leaders! Unions do abuse their power sometimes (human institution and all) -- but the workers need that protection.
Edit: Minimum wage in the States is around $6.25/hour, I believe.
Edit (6 May 2004): Oy! Since I am now applying for a minimum-wage internship, it has come to my attention that minimum wage is actually $5.15/hour. I'm delighted, since that is $5.15 more than most internships pay an hour ( ), but can you imagine trying to support a family on that? 
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angelito
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posted March 07, 2004 08:17 PM |
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People will not be generally happier. The only people that will be happier and the ones that make minimum wage. The more wealthy people will not be happy because now there money is worth less.
Wrong economic thinking Dingo...
If the poor people (and normaly they are the majority) have MORE money, the will spend MORE in buying stuff.
Conclusion: The stores will earn MORE money...
Conclusion: The stores have to pay MORE taxes....
Conclusion: The government will have MORE money..
Conclusion: The government is now able to decrease taxes..
Conclusion: The fee costs for the companies decrease...
....and now the circle is closed, cause first of all, the fee costs will raise coz of raising the minimum wage.
Well, very easy explained, not considered all things, but somehow like this it could/would work....
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Dingo
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posted March 07, 2004 10:34 PM |
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Well if the poor start to have more money, that will make them richer. This in a way makes the Rich more poor. And this just brings us closer to Communism.
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angelito
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posted March 07, 2004 10:52 PM |
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Well if the poor start to have more money, that will make them richer. This in a way makes the Rich more poor. And this just brings us closer to Communism.
If some unlucky people get luck, is the conclusion then, that some lucky people get unlucky?
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Aculias
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posted March 07, 2004 11:02 PM |
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I came in a bit late but Angelito pretty much sumed up what I was going to say in the thread before his last.
Sure Minimum wage is cool for people who work for minimum wage, then think of all other stuff that raises from increasing minimum wage.
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Dingo
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posted March 07, 2004 11:03 PM |
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Example: Say Richard gets paid 100 dollars a day, and Bob gets paid 5 dollars a day. Richard is 20 times more richer than Bob. Now lets give Bob a raise for no reason, Bob now gets paid 10 dollars a day. Richard is now only 10 times more richer than Bob. Richard isn't bothered by it too much. Then Bob gets another raise for no reason, and now he gets paid 20 dollars a day. Now Richard is only 5 times more rich than Bob. Richard can only get 5 times more things compared to his 20 times more. So if you think about it, Richard is now more poor.
Then the stores raise there prices and now the dollar is worth less aka Inflation.
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