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Heroes Community > Heroes 4 - Lands of Axeoth > Thread: Medusa Stonegaze tests REVEALED!!!
Thread: Medusa Stonegaze tests REVEALED!!! This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
brody
brody


Known Hero
Pathetic Loser
posted April 12, 2002 11:38 AM

Medusa Stonegaze tests REVEALED!!!

okay, so stonegazing isn't all that exciting, but I decided to do some testing to see exactly what makes these medusas seem so overpowering (to me at least)...

I created a scenario in the campaign editor with multiple stacks of medusas (blue player) and then 400 hydras and 2 heroes (red player).

Heroes:
1 - Level 40, 490 HP, Def 110, GM Combat, GM Tactics (all tactics sec. skills at GM too)

2 - Level 40, 490 HP, Def 110, GM Combat + GM Magic res

High Defense vs. Stonegazing

First I tested if defense helps out against medusae.  I put 100 hydras against them, with no hero.  The attack/defense ratio of medusa shooting hydra is 19/26 = 73%.  If attack and defense are factors, the medusas should stone 73% as often as they would an even opponent...

For the tests, I let 2 stacks of 50 medusas pummel my poor hydras for 15 rounds, for a total of 30 attacks.  There were 30 stonegazing deaths during those attacks.  So if 73% of the "potential" gazes got through (again, assuming gazing is affected by attack and defense), then the medusas had a total of 41 (30 / .73 = 41) attempts at gazing.

I put my tactics hero in with 100 hydra next, giving them a defense of 39.  New ratio: 19/39 = 49%.  In this run, only 25 gazes happened over 30 attacks.  If the ratio is checked, this means the medusas would have had 51 gazing attempts...

I then tried again vs. larger stacks, and without tactics my hydras lost an average of 11 per attack (vs. 200 medusas).  With tactics it was closer to 8.

Conclusion: Defense helps, but not in an obvious ratio like attack / defense.

High level heroes and Magic res vs. gazing

Next I tried to figure out if level affects the chance of being stoned.  I pitted my heroes against a stack of 25 medusas and found that no matter what, those medusas could not stone either hero.  When I moved up to a stack of 50, however, the medusas could stone the one without magic res no problem, but not the one with 100% magic res.

Then I pitted them against a stack of 200 medusas.  The one without magic res was stoned every time, no exceptions.  The one with magic res was never stoned, not once.

Conclusion: Hero level does affect their ability to be stoned, and I suspect it's as simple as this: # of medusas needed to stone = hero level.  Also, magic res is a BIG factor.  No amount of medusas could stone my 100% magic res hero.

How powerful is the gaze attack?

I think stonegazing is still too powerful, as even a powerful hero without 100% magic res can get stoned without too much trouble - as I said, my level 40 hero (110 def) was stoned by 50 medusas.  A hydra has 26 ranged defense, meaning the medusa would only do 73% damage in a normal attack.  Since the average attack of 50 medusas stoned 1 hydra, the medusas were essentially hitting for 250 damage (not counting their real attack).  Figuring the 73% modifier, this means each medusa did about 6 damage, and that 6 damage was not reduce by range.  Essentially, medusas can do 9-12 damage (3-6 normal + 6 from gaze), and 6 of it isn't modified by range.

I don't know the growth rate of medusas compared to other level 2 shooters, but I put 50 ballistas and 50 elves against my hydras, and neither came close to the damage a medusa could do... (close range, elves were about 200, ballista were 150; long range, elves were only 80) and both lose damage in melee attacks, and neither have unlimited shots.
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Scorpius
Scorpius


Hired Hero
posted April 12, 2002 12:13 PM

thanks, that saves me the time

i think its like i said in the other thread, the magic resistance applies as an independent factor giving a % chance to negage a succesfull gaze.

Still, its overpowered imo, i mean you could get MUCH easier 200 Medusa's than a lvl 40 hero...
But its nice that resistance has some effect on it (although you have to go all the way up to GM to be 100% safe), it makes the combat skill in all aspects more vital if you want to preserve a hero.


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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted April 12, 2002 01:48 PM

This also means you can save some of your creatures. There are some capes/cloaks that gives 30% resistance.

Also since magic resistance works, then the spell Antimagic (3rd level Nature) will work wonders on your hero or high level monsters. Also means Blackies have nothing to fear, and Dwarves and Golems are very good to bring in a fight against Medusa.

Btw. have anyone checked the Stone gaze versus Elementals, Undead, or Mechanichal creatures?

Both 200 Medusa and level 40 hero are difficult to get. Do note that your heroes will usually have mores skills than their levels imply due to all the tuition available. Too bad the advanced tuition doesn't give you choices in what to study.

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Pembleton
Pembleton


Hired Hero
posted April 12, 2002 03:46 PM

I thought capes/cloaks only gave *heroes* bonuses.  It says so explicitly in their description.

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted April 12, 2002 04:42 PM

Quote:
I thought capes/cloaks only gave *heroes* bonuses.  It says so explicitly in their description.


(At least) one of them gives creatures in the army magical protection. If I recall correctly it was 30% MR.

Perhaps you've not across that one?

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Flashman
Flashman


Adventuring Hero
posted April 12, 2002 04:57 PM

I've seen two, one is 30% and the other is 50%.

/Flash
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brody
brody


Known Hero
Pathetic Loser
posted April 12, 2002 10:25 PM

Quote:
This also means you can save some of your creatures. There are some capes/cloaks that gives 30% resistance.

Also since magic resistance works, then the spell Antimagic (3rd level Nature) will work wonders on your hero or high level monsters. Also means Blackies have nothing to fear, and Dwarves and Golems are very good to bring in a fight against Medusa.

Btw. have anyone checked the Stone gaze versus Elementals, Undead, or Mechanichal creatures?

Both 200 Medusa and level 40 hero are difficult to get. Do note that your heroes will usually have mores skills than their levels imply due to all the tuition available. Too bad the advanced tuition doesn't give you choices in what to study.



With one chaos town, 200 medusas is somewhat hard to get, but levelling up to 40 was something like 900,000 exp - you wouldn't do that in a single scenario very often.  In either case, the point of the level 40 hero was to illustrate that a mere 50 medusas could kill a level 40 hero without too much trouble.  200 will kill that hero no matter what, unless you have magic res.  And yes, with all the skills and such, you should be able to have either magic res, or some spells to impede the medusas... but they still have a very easy time against level 4 creatures.
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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted April 12, 2002 10:41 PM

"With one chaos town, 200 medusas is somewhat hard to get, but levelling up to 40 was something like 900,000 exp - you wouldn't do that in a single scenario very often."

No, not with the level up scheme they have. Too bad they kept the one from H3. At levels beyond 25 the only reasonable way to level up is finding another Tree of Knowledge, or you'll have to spend X number of hours tuning one particular hero.

"... but they still have a very easy time against level 4 creatures."

Anti-magic should protect your creatures also.

Medusa are not the only one who can do serious damage. Just look at faerie dragons, water elementals and genies. If you accumulate stack sizes Ice Bolt and other similar spells will have a devastating effect on heroes and creatures without magic resistance. 1 Water Elemental = 11 damage so fifty of these are guaranteed to kill a hero with no magic resistance at level 45. 10 Water Elementals can take out a level 2 hero, 20 Water Elementals a level 13 hero and this amount is not hard to get.

Asylum has better level 2s than other towns but perhaps that's compensation for other towns having better level 3s.
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brody
brody


Known Hero
Pathetic Loser
posted April 13, 2002 02:06 AM

Quote:
"... but they still have a very easy time against level 4 creatures."

Anti-magic should protect your creatures also.

Medusa are not the only one who can do serious damage. Just look at faerie dragons, water elementals and genies. If you accumulate stack sizes Ice Bolt and other similar spells will have a devastating effect on heroes and creatures without magic resistance. 1 Water Elemental = 11 damage so fifty of these are guaranteed to kill a hero with no magic resistance at level 45. 10 Water Elementals can take out a level 2 hero, 20 Water Elementals a level 13 hero and this amount is not hard to get.

Asylum has better level 2s than other towns but perhaps that's compensation for other towns having better level 3s.


Well, anti-magic shouldn't be that necessary.  I mean, medusas do huge damage (50 killing an average of 1 hydra per shot) for a level 2.  No other level 2 can do that kind of damage.  I have around 80 magi (level 2), and they are just now able to do 240 damage per ice bolt.  And they're much weaker than medusas physically, and have a limited number of spellpoints.

As for the other creatures you mentioned, they're all level 3 or 4.  A level 3 should be at least 2 times better than a level 2 IMO, so 50 water elementals should hit hydras and kill 2+ per shot.  Well, they can kill 2 per ice bolt (550 damage), but physically are still fairly weak, and again, they don't have unlimited ice bolts.  Once their spell points are gone, they're barely strong enough to hold themselves upright

The medusas should either not have ranged stoning, or else have a small limit (like 4) to ranged shots.  That change, small though it may seem, would make things much more balanced.
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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted April 13, 2002 11:41 AM

Well, anti-magic shouldn't be that necessary.  I mean, medusas do huge damage (50 killing an average of 1 hydra per shot) for a level 2.

=> Other towns have threats which will want you to cast Antimagic just to remove the threat. Why not Asylum?

=> Medusas are the Mighty Gorgons of H4, so just accept that. You can circument their special by either Magic Resistance or Antimagic. Prepare yourself for the encounter instead of saying it's broken. And you find it so good then play Asylum.

=> Magi grow 8 per week Medusa 6 per week. The Magi have Magic Fist (not Ice Bolt) and several other useful spells too.

=> On the other hand medusa are not good against other level 2s. If you pit the medusa against Gold Golems then the Golems would likely win.

 
As for the other creatures you mentioned, they're all level 3 or 4.  A level 3 should be at least 2 times better than a level 2 IMO, so 50 water elementals should hit hydras and kill 2+ per shot.

=> Well the Elementals are more like level 2s than level 3s. Their weekly growth and abilites are on par with the tank units of the level 2. The game chart lists them as level 2. Also how much stronger a level 3 is than a level 2 also depends on their weekly growth.

The medusas should either not have ranged stoning, or else have a small limit (like 4) to ranged shots.  That change, small though it may seem, would make things much more balanced.

=> Why would limiting the shots make them more balanced? You want them not to be able to shoot heroes, but in that case one shot is enough. I like the medusa like they are. Dangerous and you're thinking twice before you attack them. Most other stacks lack challenge.

=> Btw. what's wrong with casting Antimagic (when you have it). Any time the enemy has a spellcaster with a damage spell this is the first spell that comes to mind for a spell caster. The second being Wasp Swarm, Blind, Confusion.

=> The Medusa hord is vulnerable. If you put all of them in one stack, then losing their turn is very bad. If you put them in several, then you won't get the stoning effect all that often.

=> The game needs some lower level creatures that can deal with higher level creatures.

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DonGio
DonGio


Promising
Famous Hero
of Clear Water Mountain Clan
posted April 13, 2002 12:37 PM

Djive, what are you, working for 3DO?

Other towns have threats that will make you want to cast anti-magic, why not Asylum?

=> It's not a matter of wanting to cast anti-magic, it's a matter of having to unless you want your heroes slaughtered. I don't see any other L2's doing that to your heroes (in that quantity, at least).

=> Even in the Lysander campaign, my heroes didn't reach level 40, and there were a lot of trees in that campaign.

=> Heroes are weak enough as it is, the only way I can keep heroes without life magic alive during a combat with large creature stacks are potions of immortality, and often they just get killed a second time anyway.
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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted April 13, 2002 02:46 PM

=> It's not a matter of wanting to cast anti-magic, it's a matter of having to unless you want your heroes slaughtered. I don't see any other L2's doing that to your heroes (in that quantity, at least).

DonGio: The solution is simple. If you don't want your heroes to be slaughtered then protect them with your troops or give them that 100% Magic Resistance. It's not just Medusa you're dead meat against without Magic resistance. Try Water Elementals, Genies or Faerie Dragons, even Magi if you're low level. So it's a matter of having the curtsey (as a player) to not to let your heroes fight against overwhelming odds. Pick your fights and don't fight until you're ready for the opponents.

I mean you KNOW when you attack the medusa that they HAVE stone gaze. (And considering the state of the Map Ai  I very much doubt that the eneemy will come knocking at your castle with some Medusa.)

=> Even in the Lysander campaign, my heroes didn't reach level 40, and there were a lot of trees in that campaign.

In this case I'd say they made a big mistake using the Xp-table from Heroes 3. Heroes levelling up so slow and finishing all games 20% developed (at good times) is disappointing. You should be able to level up spending less than 1 hour game play. without finding a new tree. Even in the campaigns with all tuition/altars etcetera Heroes are just about 50% developed (At least Elwyn was about that level in the Nature campaign.)

=> Heroes are weak enough as it is, the only way I can keep heroes without life magic alive during a combat with large creature stacks are potions of immortality, and often they just get killed a second time anyway.

Once heroes get to level 15 or so they get powerful enough to take on big stacks. At least my heroes generally survive their combat after they reach that point and even though at times the odds seems overwhelming.

I've barely had Life Magic at all with my heroes, and I have yet to use a single Immortality potion.

I'd say heroes are overall very strong.

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hellraiser
hellraiser

Tavern Dweller
posted April 13, 2002 03:23 PM

1. I think the game wasn't intended to be played only with a "one man (uber hero) army". Proper troops placement save yr dear hero from getting stoned or whatever too soon.
2. Indeed 100%MR makes yr hero immune to stoning.
3. U have a vast array of spells to counter such abilities.
(e.g. confusion/confusion cloud, forgetfulness....)
4. Remember there are only 4 creature levels!!!!! They had to power up those 2 and 3 lvl creatures!!!!!
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brody
brody


Known Hero
Pathetic Loser
posted April 14, 2002 03:03 PM
Edited By: brody on 14 Apr 2002

I TAKE IT ALL BACK!!

Well, not all, but most...

First, I noticed my stack of 80 magi actually does a TON of damage (somewhere over 300) with their magic fist.  Second, I noticed (while playing the order campaign) that there are more than just medusas that are very strong.  Ghosts (are they level 2's?  Can't remember) in large numbers (100 or so) can take out my heroes rather effectively, and they're weaklings!  That aging hurts bad.  Also, the level 2 might creatures (nomads and harpies) are very strong.  Nomads are fast and tough (45 hp) and have first strike.  Harpies are fast and unretaliatable.

Most importantly, as Djive pointed out, medusas only grow at 6 per week!!  I was unaware of that.  That's only 50% more than thunderbirds!

Granted, medusas will still kill a level 40 hero more easily than magi or nomads or harpies, but I no longer believe they're extremely overpowered.  If the map comes with 100 medusas guarding a mine, that's a problem.  But in regular situations, Djive is right, they grow very slowly.

Quick quote from Djive:
Quote:

Why would limiting the shots make them more balanced? You want them not to be able to shoot heroes, but in that case one shot is enough. I like the medusa like they are. Dangerous and you're thinking twice before you attack them. Most other stacks lack challenge.



Actually I wanted some challenge, just not such overpowering challenge.  I always thought they should be able to stone heroes, I just wanted less power.  I am, however, still uncertain about that unlimited shots thing...
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campfreddie
campfreddie

Tavern Dweller
posted April 15, 2002 03:33 PM

I'm doing the Queen Emilia (sp?) campaign.

1st mission you have to kill >100 harpies in the final battle.  There are also >400 orcs, which can do a fair bit of damage from an arrow tower.

Fortunately - I have the beserk spell.  Those medusa went from being my worst enemy to my treasured ally.  Also - my genies were summoning >20 medusa each turn for my army.

And I had forgetfullness - which removed the medusa gaze threat when beserk was no longer appropriate.

Medusas are tough - but no more so than many others (Vampires, genies, water elementals).  And it's hard to get a large stack of them.

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Scorpius
Scorpius


Hired Hero
posted April 16, 2002 10:49 AM

ok, there is a point in telling that heroes are a bit weak in general (especially in  single scenario with not as much chance to advance), and they almost need Combat to survive a battle.

I however stay at my point that the Medusa special IS overpowered and should be redone. Especially in single scenarios you dont have high mastery in Resistance that soon and there isnt always such a handy cloak available.
And again 50% Magic resistance IS NOT 50% chance to ignore the gaze, that only works with 100% Magic resistance.

So i stay with my choice to make the gaze melee only, and compensate it with setting the damage range to 3-8.

But then again who are we talking about what 3do should chance?
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brody
brody


Known Hero
Pathetic Loser
posted April 16, 2002 11:39 AM

Scorpius, I don't know about that... yeah, they're very powerful, but after casting poison on an enemy hero (NOT in line-of-sight, mind you) from my magi, I've come to accept that some level 2's really can kick some serious a**!

Magi growth is 8/week (33% more than medusa) and their poison is 2 points of damage per mage.  For 67 of them, that's 134 damage per round.  It takes 4 rounds to kill a level 40 that way, assuming the magi don't cast magic fist ever (if they do, that's another 268 points per cast, double the poison damage!).  And 50 medusas weren't likely to kill a level 40 hero, so it usually took a few rounds to get the kill anyway... so with a more comparable example, 100 medusas could usually kill a level 40, and 133 magi, hitting with magic fist (133 * 4 = 532), will kill the level 40 with no MR.  If they use poison, it takes only 2 rounds.

And finally, the medusas seemed to respond (very slightly) to higher defense, whereas magic is only reduced by MR.  So in the end, I think that heroes are just easy to kill by many creatures if you aren't careful, skilled, and somewhat lucky.

But don't get me wrong - I still wouldn't mind seeing medusas (as well as most spellcasting creatures) toned back some.
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Crimson
Crimson

Tavern Dweller
posted April 17, 2002 02:05 AM

Or you could cast forgetfulness then slow and shoot them down.  I'm not sure if steal enchantment will take away their stone gaze.

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Scorpius
Scorpius


Hired Hero
posted April 17, 2002 11:35 AM

--
'Or you could cast forgetfulness then slow and shoot them down. I'm not sure if steal enchantment will take away their stone gaze.'
--

There are many ways to counter the Medusa gaze (song of peace, Berserk, protecting them with a unit in front etc), but this still doesnt change the fact that if they get the chance they can range kill a high lvl hero with a single shot. And if they get increased movement they might be on earlier than one of your spell casters, and the stack might even be splitted for the purpose. All the trouble to counter a way to easy chance of a lvl 2 to kill a hero or some lvl 4 creatures.

--
'But don't get me wrong - I still wouldn't mind seeing medusas (as well as most spellcasting creatures) toned back some.'
--

precisely: In addition, Mage and Genie growth could be a bit slower. But if this is to be done those vampires should be reconsidered again too, because at the moment only the genie has a chance against the vampire supremacy. Giving the vampires a lower attack and defence seems a fair messure to me. 30 each is ridiculous, those are lvl 4 stats!
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DonGio
DonGio


Promising
Famous Hero
of Clear Water Mountain Clan
posted April 17, 2002 11:43 AM

Yes, your right, Scorpius, hadn't noticed before now, the vamps have higher defense than Hydras, Phoenixes and Faerie Dragons!

They need to tone them down. No matter how impossible a map is, if you get necro, you know you're gonna win.
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