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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: HOMM3 AI question -- does it cheat in a minor way?
Thread: HOMM3 AI question -- does it cheat in a minor way? This thread is 7 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · NEXT»
elkston
elkston

Tavern Dweller
posted November 13, 2001 09:27 PM bonus applied.
Edited By: Hexa on 26 Jan 2002

HOMM3 AI question -- does it cheat in a minor way?

Do you think the AI ever cheats?  Now I'm not talking about the egregious type of cheating such as giving yourself extra money, stats, or stacks of Black Dragons.  I'm talking about subtle advantages  it may have that could sway perhaps a close game in its favor.  What I mean is taking advantage of internal data structures or objects
that human users of the game do not have access to.

For example, consider this situation:

Suppose you have a minor hero on the map with a single stack of 28 Royal  Griffins.  You see an AI hero close by (within 1 turn of him) with  "Lots" of Royal Griffins.  You don't have the Visions spell, so all you  know is that he's got "Lots" of Royal Griffins.  In the best case, he's
got 20 and you may beat him.  In the worst case, 49 and you're  outmatched.  For the purposes of simplicity, let's say the hero stats
are equal.  

Okay, now lets see this from the AI point of view.  The acutal number of  Griffins that the AI has is 32.  He also doesn't have visions, but when  he examines you...does he peek into the internal object or structure  used to represent your hero and get the actual number of your stack?  Or  does the game engine play fair and only let the AI hero see "Lots"  instead of the exact number of "28"???

This might not have been the best example, but you see what I am getting at.

Edit: revived!@

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Gravdragon
Gravdragon


Known Hero
Barbarian
posted November 13, 2001 10:54 PM

I think the AI knows exactly what you have, anyway, I KNOW that he can see the entire map from the beginning.
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L´ombre fatal - The shadow of death

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elkston
elkston

Tavern Dweller
posted November 13, 2001 11:18 PM

Quote:
I think the AI knows exactly what you have, anyway, I KNOW that he can see the entire map from the beginning.


Really? The entire map?  I would say that that's a bit unfair, but with reservations.  If you are playing a map that you've done before, then you would have the advantage over your opponent too.


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wiggy_wam
wiggy_wam


Promising
Famous Hero
local pirate
posted November 14, 2001 11:28 AM

this happened only once ...

but one time, the AI cast a spell on me, and I resisted it  

therefore, the AI doesn't know if you'll already resist spells.

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DonGio
DonGio


Promising
Famous Hero
of Clear Water Mountain Clan
posted November 14, 2001 11:52 AM

Wiggy Wam: No, but he'll know exactly how big a chance there is of that happening. I hate that little caniving AI!
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Lith-Maethor
Lith-Maethor


Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
posted November 14, 2001 12:17 PM

actually...

...the AI "knows" everything... it just "acts" as if it is another player... sometimes, it can "cheat" as well...
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Dreams of Darkness nWoD IRC Chronicle, set in Edinburgh

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grythandril
grythandril


Famous Hero
who is a Chaotic Wizard
posted November 14, 2001 02:34 PM

cheat

Here is something i have found out about the computer cheating at heroes.

If the computer has town portal for it heroes it uses them when on cursed ground.

If one of humans use the spell while were on cursed ground it will not allows us whether we have expert Earth Magic or not.

But it ok for the computer to do this.

The computer does this alot on my maps and it is annoying.

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darkspirit
darkspirit


Famous Hero
aka Zutus
posted November 14, 2001 03:40 PM

I do believe the AI sees the entire map from the beginning. As it happens in lots of games. e.g. Command and conquer (you probably know that one), the AI will always perfectly use it's 'ion cannon', A-bomb, or whatever, on your buildings, eventhough he had never came near your camp and decovered the buildings. I think you get the point of what I'm saying, not?
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Shae_Trielle
Shae_Trielle


Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
posted November 14, 2001 04:05 PM

Well seeing as the AI is actually inseparable from the GAME that you're playing, of course it knows everything! It doesn't have a mind of it's own you silly! It KNOWS, whether it likes to or not because the game IS the AI!

God I can't believe people sometimes. Does the computer cheat? Of course not! It doesn't know how to cheat, cheating is a human concept, it just KNOWS stuff that you don't know! You can't hide your pawns on a chessboard.

So wierd that people think about the computer cheating. LOL. Like you're complaining that you can't beat the computer at it's own game. That's the whole idea of AI, the only artificial intelligence it has is being able to know everything and act accordingly. If it didn't, then it would be a hell of a lot more stupid than it is now!

*smile*

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haile73
haile73


Promising
Famous Hero
posted November 14, 2001 04:27 PM

I have to disagree, Shae

Every professional software is implemented in a certain modular structure. Most likely, this applies to HoMM too. There is something like a "Management Module" which keeps record of the internal data structures (position of heroes, movement rules etc.) and a (seperated) "AI Module" which plays the turns of the AI.

In a perfect (game-)world, the AI Module should only take the data objects of "its" player into account (which is of course possible to implement) and still give you an interesting game. Well, obviously it can't, so I have to admit I'm happy that the AI cheats a bit

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Sha_Men
Sha_Men


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jack-Of-No-Trades
posted November 14, 2001 04:33 PM

Haile got it right...

I think there was some discussion in Altar about AI thing...
It isn't easy to do for game like HoMM...

Don't really have example how AI cheats in HoMM3 as I haven't played so lot that single player game but...I remember someone from 3DO saying that AI doesn't know the whole map like in HoMM2...don't know is it true.

It's probably that computer gets its fair share of information though...and some abilities that human doesn't have too...

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elkston
elkston

Tavern Dweller
posted November 14, 2001 08:20 PM

Quote:
Every professional software is implemented in a certain modular structure. Most likely, this applies to HoMM too. There is something like a "Management Module" which keeps record of the internal data structures (position of heroes, movement rules etc.) and a (seperated) "AI Module" which plays the turns of the AI.

In a perfect (game-)world, the AI Module should only take the data objects of "its" player into account (which is of course possible to implement) and still give you an interesting game. Well, obviously it can't, so I have to admit I'm happy that the AI cheats a bit


Exactly, Haile. Are you involved in the software industry like myself?  

Anyway, the whole AI subject fascinates me and I am very much interested in the internals of HOMM3/Homm2 and how it is architecthed.    I sort of have an idea in my mind about how it would be done in an object-oriented type of way.  
I would love to see a detailed document that describes how the AI makes its choices during each game turn.  I mean, sure, there are a lot of things I've figured out just by playing, but I'd like to see the gory details about why it makes certain decisions and also if it does any "long term" strategy.  I.e., are decisions made on turn-to-turn basis or does it really think about long term implications of its decisions?


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The_Gootch
The_Gootch


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
posted November 14, 2001 08:54 PM

As far as I'm concerned the computer needs to AI needs to cheat.  If it didn't the game would be even less of a challenge.  Think about it...it took IBM years and millions of dollars to develop Deep-Blue--whose sole purpose was to beat Gary Kasparov at chess.  Its computing power was rated at something like 200 million moves a second.  More importantly, it had every major chess match in the last 150 years in its memory, not to mention all of Kasparov's games.  Normal AIs can only crunch numbers and hard data.  They cannot make 'subjective' decisions.  The best AIs can crunch numbers the fastest and consider the most possibilities in the shortest amount of time.  3do doesn't have even a fraction of IBM's budget.  So, to equalize, it has to allow its AI to 'cheat'.

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haile73
haile73


Promising
Famous Hero
posted November 15, 2001 01:16 PM

LOL, elkston, you should write to NWC - maybe they will send you the source codes

P.S.
I've worked as a software developer beside my studies to pay some bills. Probably I will do such work again some time. Why not as a developer of HoMM5?

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LichKing
LichKing


Honorable
Known Hero
posted November 15, 2001 05:42 PM

2 things I've noticed

The first is morale.  I've had times when my hero with +3 or better morale has tried to take a mine and the guardians get morale bonuses almost every attack.  Conversely, I hardly ever get a morale bonus in the same battle.  This really scares me when it's day 2 or 3 in the game and the mine is guarded by eyes, grand elves, or marksmen.  In most cases, I'm too scared to go for the mine and I end up waiting until I'm sure I can get to them and take them out fast.

The second one, I'm not really sure about.  Has anyone ever waited a troop stack in order to use 'junk' troops to hit it first and soak up its retaliation and then had the monster retaliate a SECOND time anyway?  I'm not talkin about griffs, either.  Things like Behms, Hydras, etc?

I'm 60% sure this has happened to me at least twice, and 40% sure that I don't know if it did or not.
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Gixxer
Gixxer

Tavern Dweller
posted November 15, 2001 09:20 PM

does the AI know where the grail is from the start?
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I used to be concerned about my apathy, but now I don't care anymore.

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Gravdragon
Gravdragon


Known Hero
Barbarian
posted November 15, 2001 10:24 PM

No, it doesnt know where the grail is from the beginning, but can dig it up after finding just one obelisk.
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L´ombre fatal - The shadow of death

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Lith-Maethor
Lith-Maethor


Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
posted November 15, 2001 10:27 PM

again...

...the AI "knows" everything... even where the grail is... it just plays as if bound by player rules...
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Dreams of Darkness nWoD IRC Chronicle, set in Edinburgh

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wiggy_wam
wiggy_wam


Promising
Famous Hero
local pirate
posted November 16, 2001 02:12 AM

LOL

ooooooooooooooooo .... beeeewaaaaaarreeeeeee ... the AI is watching uuuuuuuuuuuu.  

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dragonsister
dragonsister

Hero of Order
MapHaven administrator
posted November 16, 2001 09:42 AM

Does the AI cheat?

Well, I'm pretty sure it doesn't generally know exactly how many creatures you have.  I came to this conclusion when playing the Mutare campaign in AB - Mutare was defending a castle.  She had three red dragons.  I left them in one stack, and the AI attacked (and won :-/ ).  I reloaded, and split the dragons into three stacks of one, whereupon the AI ran away.

It *does* know whether or not a given monster stack will join it, which lets it build up diplomatic armies a little better than a human can.  However, it *doesn't* know where ambushes are or whether or not it can win any given fight (even against monster stacks) - I've seen enough AI heroes die to be sure of that.

It does not generally see past fog of war (which makes building the cover of darkness in a newly captured Necropolis quite useful; and where the AI will normally send heroes towards undefended towns it knows about, a necropolis often *can* be left undefended.  It certainly un-covers and re-uncovers and re-uncovers the Cover of Darkness' shroud.  However, a known exception involves AI heroes when the AI has no town left - they *might* be able to see the entire map; they certainly head more directly for undefended towns in unexplored areas than normal.

The 'extra resources' cheat is there, at least in some sense - remember that on 'Expert' and 'Impossible' difficulty the AI gets higher income from the same sources.  Then again, on 'easy' difficulty it gets reduced income.

DragonSister
http://heroes.mycomport.com/maphaven.html

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