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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Money or Creatures
Thread: Money or Creatures [ This thread is 2 pages long: (1) 2 ]
DonGio
DonGio


Promising
Famous Hero
of Clear Water Mountain Clan
posted November 17, 2001 11:12 AM
Edited By: Hexa on 26 Jan 2002

Money or Creatures

I've been playing some HOMMIII lately (who hasn't?), and one question comes to mind that I just can't seem to figure out. It belongs to the story that I am in no way an exceptional HOMM player. My question is this:

Is there a generic rule for what you should build/buy in towns first out of creature dwellings and the halls/capitol, regardless of town type or map circumstances.

On one side, you get more available creatures by building dwellings first, but on the other hand, you probably don't have the money to buy (m)any creatures.

As mentioned, I'm not an outstanding player, so be gentle with me, but I'd still appreciate some help or views on this one.

Edit: revived!@
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wiggy_wam
wiggy_wam


Promising
Famous Hero
local pirate
posted November 17, 2001 11:27 AM

I don't think there is a general rule ...
it depends on the map, and starting resources (130%, 160%, etc).

- on MOST ToH maps which are rich ... and have many banks and chests, you'd want to get all the creature dwellings you can afford week one, then afterward rebuild your economy from the treasures.

- on random maps ... scout out the area, if you see treasures around, go for creatures, if not, then you'll need a capitol.

I usually build all the dwellings i can first week, and then i usually buy the lvl 6's (or 7's) week 2 day 1, while using those reinforcements to claim other treasures ... and during week 2, i build for the capitol.

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rogue
rogue


Promising
Famous Hero
Prosecutors Will Be Shoplifted
posted November 17, 2001 02:11 PM

I tend to try and get at least one income upgrade on day 1 or 2 (from 500 gold/day to 1000 gold/day) and a few creature dwellings and a citadel in week one.

sometimes I get the 2000 gold/day building in week one also.

However, I don't know if I'm any good at the game.

a lot of it depends on the map and the town I'm playing.
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Gimmickless
Gimmickless


Promising
Known Hero
Cannon Maker
posted November 17, 2001 05:16 PM

Playing Stronghold, it's almost always great to get behemoths 1st week (if you're starting on 100%), which will normally get you all the resources you need for a while.  But like everyone else is saying, it depends on the map usually.
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rogue
rogue


Promising
Famous Hero
Prosecutors Will Be Shoplifted
posted November 17, 2001 07:18 PM

yeah, it's pretty easy to get behemoths in week one with stronghold... I mean, you only have to build 2 or 3 creature dwellings, depending on whether or not you start with wolves or not.

Then you still have time to do a money upgrade, a citadel, a mage guild, and something else.
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Shae_Trielle
Shae_Trielle


Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
posted November 18, 2001 02:26 AM

Know the map

For ToH-ers the number one rule is build for creatures. Money is expendable, you are guaranteed to get some of it regardless. Creatures like Level 7's though are as precious as hens teeth, so to lose 1 or 3 or 5 (as each week progresses) is a bad thing and come time for large battles, you just may find yourself wishing that you had build your Level 7 building instead of that Capitol....

The logic goes of course that if you have a stronger army earlier than the opposition, you can use this might to fight for your money (chests, etc.) and break through into new territory quickly.

*smile*

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DonGio
DonGio


Promising
Famous Hero
of Clear Water Mountain Clan
posted November 18, 2001 05:32 AM

Okay, thanks for the help, guys!
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The_Gootch
The_Gootch


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
posted November 19, 2001 01:09 PM

These guys have been spoiled on rich toh maps for too long.  On Cd maps on L or XL go for Capitol.  Period.  Even if you are Stronghold.  In my experience, my friends who have gone for Behemoths 1st week have gotten stomped by me.  What am I saying?  I stomp them even if they don't go for Behemoths.  Get your Capitol going and then you can use about half of the treasure chests you come across to build up your main hero's level.  On M maps, you still go for Capitol.  If the computer somehow comes knocking on your door early on, you'll have your Castle to defend you.  Here's a trick to bait the computer to attack you in your Castle.  Take your main hero and put him into your town.  Next, take all of his creatures except for his fastet one into garrison.  The computer will read your hero for his one troop and attack you, not realizing the garrison troops will combine for your castle defense.  Note that this works about 95% of the time.  I don't play S maps, so I can't give any advice about them.  As for toh maps, build your creatures and Castle exclusively your first week.  Then go for the Capitol.  Then upgrade your mage guilds and creature dwellings.  

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Gimmickless
Gimmickless


Promising
Known Hero
Cannon Maker
posted November 20, 2001 03:13 AM

Are you out of your mind?

Try not going for behemoths week one on any map that has resources at all (read: 2000 gold, 10 chests and 10 of each mineral minimum). You can't progress near as quickly as you would otherwise.

Sounds to me like someone doesn't play Stronghold very often...check my Behemoths vs. Capitol poll a page or two down for that debate.
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wiggy_wam
wiggy_wam


Promising
Famous Hero
local pirate
posted November 20, 2001 08:46 AM

I don't know gimmickless ... 5 ancients ARE better than 7 regular behemoths...

different strategies, different advantages.  I believe it depends on map.

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AndiAngelsla...
AndiAngelslayer


Disgraceful
Famous Hero
posted November 20, 2001 10:17 AM

what kinda question is that...with stronghold i always make behemots first week if its possible somehow (yaya im not talking about 200% ), doesnt matter what map

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rogue
rogue


Promising
Famous Hero
Prosecutors Will Be Shoplifted
posted November 20, 2001 11:29 AM

Quote:
I don't know gimmickless ... 5 ancients ARE better than 7 regular behemoths...

different strategies, different advantages.  I believe it depends on map.


but would you rather have the ability to upgrade your 7 regulars to 7 Ancients, or just have the 5 Ancients?


I just played a game on a relatively resource-poor map - one that came with the game in fact - Unexpected Inheritance.

It was a great game that I narrowly won by foiling my opponent's Armageddon/Black Dragon combo, and quite honestly, I think the fact that resources were scarce is what made the map so good. I haven't played many TOH maps yet, but it sounds like there are so many resources on those maps that building creature dwellings first is the only good strategy. That in effect takes a lot of strategy out of the game because the balance of the map limits the amount of effective choices you can make.

Overly high-resource maps also make Stronghold and Fortress weaker. Those two towns have disadvantages, especially the smaller mage guilds, that are offset by their easy build trees that lets you get level 7 creatures earlier in the game. If a map has so many resources that everybody can get level 7 creatures right away, it unbalances the map in favor of not using Stronghold or Fortress.

On a moderate or low resource map, there are more things to think about when building, and essentially more strategy because of this, while a high resource map takes many of those decisions and makes them infeasible.
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Wyvern
Wyvern


Promising
Famous Hero
posted November 20, 2001 03:03 PM

As I have said many times, I'm an extremely bad player and here is a strategy that you may not like at all:
I play with Fortress almost all the time. And here is what I do: Build all the buildings needed for Capitol. Then I build the Capitol itself. Then I build the Resource Silo. Then I don't build the creature dwellings but continue with building Glyphs of Fear, Blood Obelisk, Cage of Warlords, Captain's Quarters and THEN start building dwellings and upgrades... You may laugh, you may say that this is stupid and I can easily lose if I play this way... But I don't care, what is important is that I enjoy my strategy and will always use it. The point of playing is having fun, isn't it?

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AndiAngelsla...
AndiAngelslayer


Disgraceful
Famous Hero
posted November 20, 2001 06:08 PM

and wheres your point, you enjoy havingno army but useless building liek glyph of fear lol?

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Shae_Trielle
Shae_Trielle


Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
posted November 21, 2001 03:27 AM

Wyvern is one of those players who likes top to bottom building, lol!

Wyvern, either you are incredibly stubborn or you are incredibly silly. I'm not sure if you play ToH or not or even online at all, but I would really really like to show you the huge hole you have in that logic.

I think building Capitol straight away is madness, unless on 160% or higher. Even on pathetic maps, I still find it's better to have an army to fight with than no army at all. Hell do I care if I have no gold, I'll just STEAL IT FROM YOU!!

LMAO!

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Wyvern
Wyvern


Promising
Famous Hero
posted November 21, 2001 05:38 AM

I really like top to bottom buildings and I'm really stubborn... And I don't like your hypothesis that you should always get creatures at first... Even if it is so, this is not good because the game should allow different strategies. If the only way to win is to get creatures first, the game is not balanced!

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Shae_Trielle
Shae_Trielle


Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
posted November 21, 2001 05:56 AM

Yes, well if you get Fly before the other person does well then there's an imbalance right there isn't it?

The difficulty level of the game dictates what order things should be built in. And building has nothing to do with balance, it's about managing resources correctly so that you can build a town which will give you the greatest possible advantage. it's not really a matter of who has the most money wins in HoMM, it's a matter of who has the biggest army. And the sooner you build that army, the greater your chances are of defeating your opponent. If it takes you too long to build, then an enemy with a stronger army will come right in and take your town fairly easily, castle or not.

And once you're at the mercy of a larger, more powerful army, then you've near lost the game I'm afraid. You stay holed up in your castle with nowhere to go while the opponent waltzes about collecting whatever he can find and growing in strength all the time.

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Gimmickless
Gimmickless


Promising
Known Hero
Cannon Maker
posted November 21, 2001 06:02 AM

Quote:
I really like top to bottom buildings and I'm really stubborn... And I don't like your hypothesis that you should always get creatures at first... Even if it is so, this is not good because the game should allow different strategies. If the only way to win is to get creatures first, the game is not balanced!


Sorry dude, but this is a war game, not SimCity. Either you build to create creatures or to ensure the survival of your creatures in the most effective way possible.  The way you play is definitely not the way to win in any competitive setting.  But if you're having fun like you said, more power to you...

BTW, there are some maps that require other situations to win, like flagging all mines/dwellings, getting X amount of gold, etc. But normally, you fight to win.  That's the game for you...
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Legolas
Legolas

Tavern Dweller
The Elven Archer of the Forest
posted November 21, 2001 07:58 AM

Both

To suceed in a long game or any game a smart player needs both a nice amount of creatures and a nice amount of money.

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Dajek
Dajek


Known Hero
Psychedelic Knight
posted November 21, 2001 02:13 PM

What harder difficulty skill You play, that more money is important.

When I play with "easy" (only in multiplay, sp maps I only play with impossible) my strategy is next:

1. Build castle (2 days)
2. build as much creature generators as I can in the first  week.

...but I don`t think it works with impossible...
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