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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Defence Specialists
Thread: Defence Specialists [ This thread is 4 pages long: (1) 2 3 4 ]
Zud
Zud


Promising
Famous Hero
box worshipper
posted March 04, 2002 09:57 AM
Edited By: Zud on 4 Mar 2002

Defense Specialists

Just an opinion, and I would like others, but I have to think that Tazzy and others get a lot better help from their specialty than is published.  I mean when I get Tazar up to lvl 20 he should take 40% less damage for attacks.  

Don't you think he does a lot better than that? I do!!!

I mean it's like hitting a rock with a flyswatter once he gets built up a bit.  
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sos
sos


Known Hero
posted March 04, 2002 10:31 AM

actually, its 30% reduction at level 20. I think what you say comes also from the fact that he usually has very high defence, which together with armorer leads to very low damage taken. I dont think the armorer itself gives him more reduction. You can easilly test this with 2 AA

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hamsi128
hamsi128


Promising
Supreme Hero
tosser tavern owner
posted March 04, 2002 10:39 AM

in my opinion offence heroes are better... because the bonus is %30 not % 15.. and level20 crag is better then tazar... or am i wrong?
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Motorschaaf
Motorschaaf


Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
posted March 04, 2002 11:02 AM

i think both , offense and armorer rock. and the % difference between  offense and armorer isnt very important.

you are right hamsi offense is 30 % but creatures are only able to attack 1 x per round. The armorer bonus helps every time (up to 7 times,more with morale) the creature is beeing attacked .

Ufretinschaaf


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Sir_Stiven
Sir_Stiven


Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
posted March 04, 2002 12:12 PM

Quote:
you are right hamsi offense is 30 % but creatures are only able to attack 1 x per round. The armorer bonus helps every time (up to 7 times,more with morale) the creature is beeing attacked .

Ufretinschaaf




I have never actually thought about it that way, but still: In a fight u have the possibility to attack 7 times and opponent has the possibility to attack 7 times which means. 7 attacks given&taken/round. (moral bonus not included)
I know it can help when for example fighting comp tho but i still prefer offence. Havent u guys heard that offense is the best defence? oh wait thats football

/Stefan
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sos
sos


Known Hero
posted March 04, 2002 07:07 PM

offense vs armorer

I dont think offense is better than armorer.

first of all, offense applies only to the hand to hand attacks, it doesnt apply to range attacks, but armorer will reduce damage from all attacks.

second, offense bonus is a percentage of the BASE creature damage (reduced by negative A/D, but not increased by positive A/D). What it means is that if your attack skill is very high the offense bonus doesnt help you much. For instance, 1 AA with +20 A/D will do 100 damage, with expert offense same AA will do 100 + 0.30 * 50 = 115 damage, i.e. the effective offense bonus is only 15% in this case. In other words offense is more usefull for heroes with lower attack skill, because then you will get the full benefit out of it, the higher the attack skill the less usefull offense is.
On the other hand, armorer will reduce the TOTAL damage taken. That means damage modified by A/D, luck, double blow, hatred and so on. Take the same AA, he will do now only 115 * 0.85 = 98 damage if the other hero had expert armorer (compare this to the 100 damage if neither of armorer and offense are present). You see that even though offense percentage is higher in many cases armorer will be more usefull.

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RedSoxFan3
RedSoxFan3


Admirable
Legendary Hero
Fan of Red Sox
posted March 04, 2002 07:22 PM
Edited By: RedSoxFan3 on 4 Mar 2002

but you were using an example of armor bonus with a person with low defense. I bet if you used high defense it would have the same halfing effect that happened with the high attack rating.

Your math is wrong too.
It should be like this. If the attack starts with the base damage, then first you have:

50 * 1.30 = 65
65 with + 20 A/D is 65 * 2 = 130

so attack skill is still the same percentage wise. But in the total amount of increase is greater with the higher attack.

But armor is better with low defense, because you reduce more total damage.
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sos
sos


Known Hero
posted March 04, 2002 07:46 PM

you are wrong

Quote:
but you were using an example of armor bonus with a person with low defense. I bet if you used high defense it would have the same halfing effect that happened with the high attack rating.



No, it wont have the same halfing effect, because armorer works on the effective damage, i.e. it will ALWAYS reduce the damage that you would otherwise take by 15% (expert).

Quote:

Your math is wrong too.
It should be like this. If the attack starts with the base damage, then first you have:

50 * 1.30 = 65
65 with + 20 A/D is 65 * 2 = 130



Can't you read? I said that offense bonus is calculated as a percentage of the creature base damage. AA base damage is 50. 30% of 50 is 15. This will be your maximum gain by offence no matter what (even if your attack skill is 100 higher than my defense). If the A/D is negative than this bonus is reduced accordingly (will be 11 for -10 A/D for instance), but so is reduced your total damage. That means that for high attack skill you wll get the maximum offence bonus (15 in this case), but it may be only a small portion of your total damage, but for 0 or negative A/D you will get the full 30% damage increase (even tho the absolute bonus may be lower).

And please read carefully and check your facts before posting here, ok?

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Mocara
Mocara


Famous Hero
what?
posted March 05, 2002 01:03 AM

I read a revision from 3do that said offense and defense are still both 5% per extra # and that originally it was a misprint saying that offense was 2x defense.

This was a long time back and it seems to me to be true.

I find it funny that people who would rule out certain magic tactics because "there is no defense against it" don't rule out heroes like Tazar and Crag.

If there is anything that is nearly impossible to stop it is an armorer or offense specialist on a closed map.

Basically they become invincible except to spells.

I wouldn't make a rule against it but it IS the exact same thing.

-Mocara
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Destro23
Destro23


Promising
Famous Hero
Keeper of GrongGrong
posted March 05, 2002 01:10 AM

I have to agree 100% with mocara here...

Armorers are INSANE..

Hack, Gundula... they can be killed if the right tactics are used aganist them.. And by saying that off course so can taz, meph, or neela...

However on a closed map were it is almost a certainty that Taz will have exp sheild/stone skin.. probably resistance (if I am playing with him) there really is nothing you can do with say... Serena.. or cyra, or solmyr...

THey will just be massacared...

I remember one instance were level 23 Tazar and 109 Iron Golems + exp resistance and Polarity boots were taking 34 damage from a stack of 7 black drags, and 300 odd damage from the 3K?? implo being thrown at them..

Anyway I agree totally...


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malkia
malkia


Promising
Famous Hero
posted March 05, 2002 01:13 AM

I've used with Tazar and some shooters once or twice Expert-Frenzy - I think I got some titans - and they got Attack Level after frenzy to about 120 or 140 or somewhere near that... Those were just bad titans!

But it's rarely hapening good situation to use Frenzy - and you have to be very careful - very careful!
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Tristan
Tristan


Promising
Known Hero
illegally insane
posted March 05, 2002 01:34 AM

Regardless of whether you use base damage, at a certain point (in levels) Taz will absorb more damage than Hack will add.  If you add in the other advantages (effective against missile attacks, only adds to base damage, etc) a defense specialist at high levels will work better.

Taz vs Hack, each level 80, Taz will take only 40% of damage?  and Hack will do 250% damage?  I know that is extreme, but if you do the math Taz will only take a net 100% of the original damage.  

Reducing damage by a percentage will eventually gain over adding damage by the same percentage, which is why offence is twice armourer.  If both skills at expert were 30% with no specialty offence expert would do 91% damage to armourer expert.  As it stands now, Off exp does 110.5% to arm exp or an additional 10.5% damage, so the skills are more balanced than they appear at first look. (Noting the extra advantages of armourer)

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thunderknight
thunderknight


Promising
Famous Hero
posted March 05, 2002 01:38 AM

Some may say that armorer specialists
are insanely good. Well, that depends on
several things.

It seems to me that spells are DISCOURAGED or
sometimes evern DISALLOWED in multi-player games.
No lv4, no hit& run are quite common during games
between human players. On the other hand, has
anyone here ever play a game with the rule: no
armorer specialist ???? I doubt so.

Actually, there are counters to armorer specialist:

1). spells - but they are not welcome in multi-player
games, coupled with the "relatively high" possibilities
to get things like recanters, resistance arties etc.

2). diplo horde - ya, you can't inflict much damage, but
how about if I have much more troop than you ??? But, again,
no dip seems to be quite common in human games.

3). luck - I got that +6 helm while you got some suck artie.


4). rush - never let them develop, but again, rush is also not a very welcome tactic.

Of course, armorer specialists are "nearly" invincible in those large closed maps if they got resistance skill + artie as well, or may simply armorer + blackie provided both
sides have similar skills and similar luck. But it will be
another story if play "genuinely" no rule games (except cheating, of course)

Maybe next time, we will have "no armorer, no offense" rule in the games.

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meZoh
meZoh


Hired Hero
posted March 05, 2002 01:47 AM

Quote:

If there is anything that is nearly impossible to stop it is an armorer or offense specialist on a closed map.



=) Try to play on West-East against mage with Expert intelligence, knowledge near 15-20, resurrection and, maybe, implosion.
I tried, my hero has expert armorer and expert offence
and He was 18 20 3 8 against 7 5 12 20. It was impossible to win him in final battle. My anti-magic and defence from earth didn`t help me...

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thunderknight
thunderknight


Promising
Famous Hero
posted March 05, 2002 02:40 AM

Quote:
But my enemy after expert defence from earth used only ressurection and resistence couldn`t help me.

How about after an all-out attack, stand on the dead bodies
of enemy troops so that they can't be resurrected.

Don't tell me that your opponent got exp offense, exp armorer, exp earth, exp wisdom, exp intel and all the good stuff.

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Mocara
Mocara


Famous Hero
what?
posted March 05, 2002 02:45 AM

The only defense for armor hero on closed map is a magic hero and setting your troops on defense everytime.

There is no point in attacking.

Mass slow and start imploding.

It's the only way unless you have one yourself.

-Mocara
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meZoh
meZoh


Hired Hero
posted March 05, 2002 02:50 AM

Quote:

Don't tell me that your opponent got exp offense, exp armorer, exp earth, exp wisdom, exp intel and all the good stuff.


Of course not he has only magic talants intel, earth, wisdom, air, but my army wasn`t much stronger than his,
and He could kill my unit which stand on the death body, or resurrect non-dead units.
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thunderknight
thunderknight


Promising
Famous Hero
posted March 05, 2002 03:00 AM
Edited By: thunderknight on 5 Mar 2002

You mean you got a might hero with 18 20 3 8 and exp off/arm/res against your enemy with 7 5 12 20 and exp wis/earth/air/intel. It seems a typical might vs magic
battle. With equal army strength, it would be a tough game. Espeically with your low spell power, no real good spell casting you can do.

So maybe mass haste + all out attack + stand on the dead bodies will give you best chance to win otherwise your opponent may resort to Mocara's tactic.

Anyway, he can only resurrect one troop at a time.
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meZoh
meZoh


Hired Hero
posted March 05, 2002 03:06 AM

Quote:
The only defense for armor hero on closed map is a magic hero and setting your troops on defense everytime.

There is no point in attacking.

Mass slow and start imploding.

It's the only way unless you have one yourself.

-Mocara

Absolutly agree! And I think that Strong mage is much stronger than strong warrior if they have not too big army. (It`s unreal to have such big army on M maps)
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thunderknight
thunderknight


Promising
Famous Hero
posted March 05, 2002 03:21 AM

Quote:
To the most balance they were prohibited on the map

Really ???

And to the most balance, resistance arties are not disallowed I think.

As for ressurection, I think maybe exp tactic + exp offense + exp air = mass haste = massive damage on multiple units.
Or more simply, Crag with exp haste + exp resistance.

Anyway, I don't think there exist anything which is invincible in h3 (at least to my knowledge). That's why this game is so fun to play.

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