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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted November 16, 2003 08:52 PM |
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How exactly does it further anything toward your future, big guy? Did you read that incredably long post? It spells it out for you.
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Dingo
Responsible
Legendary Hero
God of Dark SPAM
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posted November 16, 2003 09:01 PM |
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I did read that incredibly long post that Deserves a Qp.
I don't understand how it is a waste of time though. Having a good time, is not a waste of time. If you smoke quite a bit, very freqeuntly then you will probably become stupid. The people that commited Suicide didn't die just because of Marijuana. There had to be other things involved.
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The Above Post/Thread/Idea Is CopyRighted by, The Dingo Corp.
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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted November 16, 2003 09:08 PM |
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Yes, it does deserve a QP.
Having a good time at the expense of others is not right. People around you can get hurt if you do any kind of drug.
Having a good time itself is not a waste of time, sleeping is a waste of time. In the words of the late Waren Zevon, "I'll sleep when I'm dead", pleasent dreams, Waren.
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Dingo
Responsible
Legendary Hero
God of Dark SPAM
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posted November 16, 2003 09:28 PM |
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haha, nice sig.
Mines better tho.
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The Above Post/Thread/Idea Is CopyRighted by, The Dingo Corp.
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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted November 16, 2003 09:32 PM |
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Oh no, because I added to yours, so, if yours is so goos, mine should be better right?
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morgan_le_fey
Famous Hero
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posted November 16, 2003 09:48 PM |
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ok having fun is important i admit that...but marijuana causes one to become lethargic(whether you admit it or not), introspective, and lifeless. your most trivial thoughts take on a kind of grand importance in your mind.
do you know the one word pot smokers says more than any other??...........here
and i know all this because i smoked and by god i DID inhale
morgan
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binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted November 17, 2003 07:57 AM |
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Quote:
The people that commited Suicide didn't die just because of Marijuana. There had to be other things involved.
I can't give a definitive response to that. I don't understand everything involved. I know pot did not "directly" kill them. But I'm also firmly convinced they would not have done it otherwise.
My mother died from diabetes last year. I did not say diabetes killed her, I said she died "from" it. I'm not an expert, but my understanding is that diabetes doesn't usually directly kill people, but it's considered one of the leading causes of death in this country. Diabetes causes various reactions in the body. It's the problems associated with those reactions that do the killing.
One of the reasons I made that post was because most of the arguments centered around physical aspects and health aspects of pot. Pot is in the head. That's where it's causing some sort of reaction. Medicine and science don't understand much about the way the mind works. Pot affects people very differently. If science were more advanced, maybe we could predict who will react severely to pot.
Those three people were three completely different people. Doug was the only one I knew before he smoked, he seemed OK to me mentally. He was also the only one them who actually went "insane". In his case, the pot was a trigger to some mental illness lurking inside him. If it weren't for the pot maybe it would have manifested itself anyway. But not at the time it did and maybe not at all.
I don't know what to say about Dan. Other than being burned out there was nothing obviousely wrong with him. He simply smoked pot to the point of no longer thinking clearly or rationally and he killed himself.
I knew Vickie the most and liked her the best. On the surface she didn't seem like a suicide candidate. She was upbeat, liked to have fun and laugh. It brings a smile to my face remembering how every year she would get stoned and watch the Wizard of Oz. She'd be dancing and singing all the munchkin songs and generally having a good ol' time.
The problem was that getting stoned became the ONLY thing she liked to do. She no longer cared about anything else. And she knew it. We had several deep and personal conversations. She knew she didn't care about anything and that she was in a freefall. The subject of pot even came up, but back then it was like "nah, that has nothing to do with it". Apparently she fell too far and killed herself. I was out of state at the time and hadn't seen her in a while. I really liked Vickie, not as a boy/girl thing, but we were good friends.
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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted November 17, 2003 10:39 PM |
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Dingo, how can you truthfuly say that pot is not bad for you after you have heard these personal accounts?
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted November 17, 2003 11:18 PM |
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Binibik.. You firmly belive in one thing what about the others existence? Sure, pot is a contributor to some suicides.. A majority of suicides are commited by pot heads? You really think and belive, that if someone who killed themselves as a pot head, wouldn't have if they werent pot heads?
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Make haste slowly.
If we want to change the future, I strongly belive it would be best to get rid of marijuana. But like the guy said pot heades are lethargic and introspective.. INtrospectives not all bad.
but we cant get rid of it until the government starts using his power/when the populous gives it to him. Right now, I bet most of you or your guardians can go to jail! Technicly.. If they wanted to enforce everything in the book.
Due to the extreme harshment of the punishment the society would fall apart if everyone was caught and prosocuted. They would have to reform everything.
So, all these laws our government want enforced arent getting enforced. How systematicly upto speed is that?
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binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted November 18, 2003 02:28 AM |
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Quote:
Binibik.. You firmly belive in one thing what about the others existence?
Not sure if I understand that question. Let me say this though. I am NOT some ex-smoker out on some crusade to banish marajuana or it's users. I don't do that in RL and that's not my intention here. I was even considering suggesting to Wolfman that he "lighten up" a little with Dingo (guess I just did). Dingo can smoke pot if he wants. I've seen a number of his posts here and elsewhere, and I've never seen a single indication he's some "burned out stoner". He admits there are hazards and chooses to smoke pot. Admitting there are hazards adds a layer of safety to it. Good for him! If he changes his mind (highly unlikely) good. If he doesn't, that's his choice to make. BUT, I think that choice should be an illegal choice and if he gets caught, given a slap on the wrist and sent on his way and NOT thrown in jail, potentially losing his job, dropping out of school, etc.
Quote:
Sure, pot is a contributor to some suicides.. A majority of suicides are commited by pot heads? You really think and belive, that if someone who killed themselves as a pot head, wouldn't have if they werent pot heads?
After my last post I realized I did a very poor job of making my point. I even tried to delete/edit it, but it didn't work. (I've read the threads on editing, proper login syntax etc, still didn't work)
From what you say, it sounds like that post was worse than I thought it was. Your statement "pot is a contributor to some suicides" sums up much of what I was trying to say. In the three cases mentioned, I truely believe pot was a major contributing factor...as in it wouldn't have happened if they hadn't been pot smokers. I'll try to be clear. Knowing these people and watching events leading up to it, I believe it to be true IN THESE CASES.
I do NOT believe that just because A) someone smokes pot, and B) they committed suicide, that C) pot caused, or even contributed, to the suicide.
You know, I almost wish I hadn't put that "in memory of" list at the end of my original post. I spent a long time writing that ILP (incredibly long post). Like 2-3 hours. I would like to think it had some substance in the rest of it.
I guess if I say things I should be prepared to defend them....but blowing pot smoke in a cop's face was a lot more fun  --- hey, even serious discusions need to lighten up now and then. Maybe some people don't think that's funny, but I sure do.
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Dingo
Responsible
Legendary Hero
God of Dark SPAM
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posted November 18, 2003 02:49 AM |
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Yeah its true that after you smoke alot it is difficult to have fun without it. But if you stop for a while things will fix themselves. If you smoke everyday, yes you will get more dumb; but if you slow down things will be ok. If you smoke Marijuana don't smoke it all the time because you will ruin it. Too much of a good thing is bad. If you use it moderately its good.
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted November 18, 2003 04:06 AM |
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Everyone has a point.
I just try to add a point that est 33% of our statistics include potusers and some users are good some are bad.
Like the other 66% of populous. Some are good some are bad.
You have consistency I'm just, adding.
Pot makes people hear voices after long use.
Dont smoke it to much.
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What are you up to
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binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted November 18, 2003 09:31 AM |
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Back in my day someone smoking every day, if that's interpreted as once a day, would have been considered a regular user, but not a heavy user. An ounce a week would have been in the heavy user range but still not at the extreme end.
But from what I've heard, the potency has increased quit a bit so it's hard to compare.
Question:
Are outright admissions or openly talking about using it considered inappropriate at HC? Or is it more like as long as it's serious discussion of an issue it's OK? At one time noone worried about it, but the social climate has changed since then.
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whinie_the_b...
Adventuring Hero
grrrrr!
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posted November 19, 2003 03:25 PM |
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As long as you don`t promote the use of it(oops, i said it`s fun in my post), it should be fine with HC.
I would say smoking it every day, even if it`s just one, is rather heavy use of it, and smoking like that will probably have unpleasant effects in the long term like you mentioned in your long post (and i failed to mention in mine). It`s true that being legal, it would be hard to control the abuse of it, like it`s now hard to control the abuse of nicotine and food, which lead to most deaths of the western world. And that`s my main argument on why it should be decriminalized. Legalizing is a step further, and while it sounds like legitimating I would have to disagree. Regular cigarettes are legal, but not legitimated by the governement, hence the "smoking seriously damages health" sign on cigarette packages (it`s in the us too right?). The issue would be how to control the abuse of it, not that there`s much control over it now. It would help if it was limited to private space, like it should be done with smoking in general out of respect to non smokers. Distribution can be limited too, so it`s not "available everywhere". Would it work? You argued that more people would smoke if it was legal, well, this is both true and untrue: statistics in holland showed that after legalazation pot use almost doubled, but went back to it`s former levels after a couple of years, so such measures can work in my opinion.
It`s still a gamble to legalise it, but it has the advantage of controlling the business around it instead of having someone illegaly earning money out of it. I don`t need to mention that advertising it shouldn`t be allowed at all.
Anyway, I don`t think it should be legalised all over the world just like that, but as long as it can be regulated, it has potential advantages. As for the hazards it hides, they are not greater than others which are caused by very legal and legitimate products.
I would like to comment on the long term mental effects it has and why they vary from person to person in another post.
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binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted November 19, 2003 10:59 PM |
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Quote:
I would say smoking it every day, even if it`s just one, is rather heavy use of it
Thanks, I already suspected as much.
Quote:
I would say smoking it every day, even if it`s just one, is rather heavy use
I was comparing people's attitudes and what would be considered "heavy use" in one time period vs another. And even back then I believe it varied from one part of the country to the next, and also from one person to the next.
I pointed out that (supposedly) the potentcy has increased. It may be like comparing a person who comes home from work every day and drinks a half liter of beer to someone who drinks a half liter of vodka.
But still, all things considered, people back then were much heavier users than they are now. (gee, who's running this country and it's corporations now anyway)
Definitions of terms may seem trivial, but many of my arguments are based on a large "case study" during that period of time. For the record, I don't want to imply that, if it were legalized, useage would return to that kind of heavy use. I don't think that would be the case.
Quote:
Regular cigarettes are legal, but not legitimated by the governement, hence the "smoking seriously damages health" sign on cigarette packages (it`s in the us too right?).
Yes, they do it here. And also warnings on alcohol.
As for legitimizing, it's a matter of direction. In the case of cigarettes they are already legal and the government is moving in the direction of de-legitmizing it. With pot, it's currently illegal, and legalizing is a move toward legimizing, even with warnings. That would effectively be saying "warning: this substance has health hazards, but we made it legal anyway, so it can't be THAT bad, right?"
Quote:
statistics in holland showed that after legalazation pot use almost doubled, but went back to it`s former levels after a couple of years
Good case study and a point for your side. (scramble, scramble, looking for refute...)
First, I'd be curious what effects there were during the transition period.
But that's not my refute. My refute is that the US isn't Holland.
I seem to recall a certain place where tulips got a bit out of hand. What's that got to do with anything? Well, just that cultures go through various stages and sometimes those stages are more rational than others. Things like apathy, happiness, prosperity, etc all vary in degrees throughout a culture's history. Personally I don't think this country is ready.
I'll take a clue from your last line about "another post" and shut up. I've never been very good with that brevity thing.
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Mad_Unicorn
Famous Hero
I am a mean person shame on me
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posted November 20, 2003 08:06 PM |
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i vote yes... having done it before and may do it again before i die (if for the only reason to get back my sleeping schedule)
to all those that say nay and never smoked a puff go smoke one now and give us your report.. (naughty me)
to all those that say nay and have smoked congratulations you have grown up.
to all those that say nay and are smoking it while typing go have a few more hits...
I have had no serious real life experiences with pot other than my friend who decided to take some coke with his doses too and decided to jump off a 6 story building... but i can honestly say it wasn't the pot.
As far as reasons why i can think of non better than taxes set a fricken age say 18 put a label saying "Bad for Brain" and sell for whatever they go for now + 15% tax
Kids will still get it, moronic people will still get it, but now it can do some good rather than being a "bad" thing.
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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted November 20, 2003 10:44 PM |
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I don't need to smoke to know it's bad.
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Mad_Unicorn
Famous Hero
I am a mean person shame on me
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posted November 21, 2003 03:32 AM |
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how would you know? its bad sure studies say so... i think. To "KNOW" if its bad or good comes from experience however to "THINK" its bad then u can base your opinion on whatever people say to you.
Ignorance is bliss i guess the saying will always be
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Shadowcaster
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Shaded Scribe
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posted November 21, 2003 06:45 AM |
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Ignorance can also be harmful in certain situations, though, and sometimes discretion provides more benefits than taking a risk that others have gotten along just fine without, such as smoking marijuana. Some risks, IMO, are not worth taking, especially those as costly as smoking that provide short-term pleasure. Some think that risk is worth taking, others do not, it's all a matter of opinion.
Also, you don't have to be a smoker to know that fumes from smokers are harmful to nearby non-smokers. Many have died or fallen ill because of second-hand smoke, most of whom have probably never inhaled the harmful substance until that moment. True, I've never smoked, but I know it is harmful. If it was perfectly healthy to smoke, then it wouldn't be illegal to smoke a joint and this thread would have never been started.
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>_>
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whinie_the_b...
Adventuring Hero
grrrrr!
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posted November 21, 2003 02:20 PM |
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I think that many if not most of the people who smoke it are aware of it`s effects, so it`s rather a matter of choice. I studied some of it`s effects myself and figured out that while it can be harmful, I`d rather harm myself smoking pot than by abusing other stuff which however is legal. Many things in our modern life are more harmful, either in a direct physical or phychological way. Now I studied those effects in some library some time ago, but i don`t remember the books and authors to make any references. I found a useful link though, for those who want to inform themselves on the effects of marijuana. It`s a rather honest site, with valid information that matches both what i`ve read before and my experience.
Now, those effects in general are rather subtle but there are a few potential dangers. THC itself acts mainly on the brains, affecting: reward, memory, thought, concentration, sensory and time perception, and coordinated movement. It can last for a week, more after abuse (up to a month). Memory and concetration suffer the most: it`s hard for the user to focus and learn. The sense of reward(and pleasure) gets stimulated by pot. But this causes psychological complications: after the pleasant effect wears out, the user feels unsatisfied and lacks motivation (since the reward function of the brains cannot be easily stimulated now). This can cause psychological addiction(people only find pleasure in smoking it), distort someones judgement(with poor intelectual performance and finding no reward elsewhere, how can you know what`s wrong and what`s right) and cause depression.
Are those effects reversible? Does the brain get physicaly damaged? Fortunately they are rather reversible it seems, even after heavy abuse. As for damage to the brain, the brain cells destroyed get replaced by reserve ones, and new interconnections are built. Not all people recover as quickly though: the ones with regular mental activity(scientists, writers and the lot) have their brains renewed more quickly. On the contrary, students or kids who only have one chance of learning a few things, might get intellectually left behind, even after their mind recovers. Which I find is the biggest risk of consuming pot: being left behind in college, work and life in general. Another reason why different people react differently to it, is stress: the more stressed the more open our mind is to THC. Oh, and THC can cause some stress, so it`s a vicious cirle. Not a good idea to smoke when stressed it then.
Now people who haven`t smoked can make your own conclusions. Oh, and the link that sais it all better and in more detail: http://www.drugabuse.gov/drugpages/marijuana.html
Just hope that those of you concerned about health, try to inform(and let us peasants know) on other possible dangers as well, and not use pot(with it`s own dangers) as a scapegoat.
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