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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted March 04, 2004 09:30 PM |
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Aren´t they called "freedom" fries now...after dispute with france?...
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Vadskye91
Promising
Supreme Hero
Back again
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posted March 04, 2004 10:10 PM |
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Eh... good point. I prefer football over footpointyoval anyway.
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Knowledge is power...
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted March 04, 2004 10:58 PM |
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Quote:
American football does involve feet -- there is a kickoff and such. The real problem is whether the object being kicked qualifies as a "ball."
Contrast the amount of kicking in American Rugby and the amount of times the hands are used. Then work out that in football, with the exception of the goalkeeper and throw-ins, realise that Football consists of almost all "feet" work. American rugby however does not
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Aquaman333
Famous Hero
of the seven seas
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posted March 04, 2004 11:47 PM |
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Why is everyone so hooked up on this? It's a friggin' name! You act like it's a subject for international debate. Are you guys looking for things to whine about?
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"Brian, look! There's a message in my Alphabits! It says,
"OOOOOOO!"."
"Peter, those are Cheerios."-Family Guy
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted March 05, 2004 12:43 AM |
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Aquaman:
LOL DITTO
Maybe people are just bored or something....(I will refrain from comment about how much more the female skeletal structure lends itself to place-kicking than does the male skeletal structure, at least for the moment...)
But, isn't the point that America stole the name?
I think that falls under the purview of "appropriation..." Now this might be a paltry example, but there's much to be said about resentments over Americans engaging in appropriation of other cultures' symbols...
Just thought I'd throw that out there and see how far it brings everybody back on track in this debate.
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I have menopause and a handgun. Any questions?
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted March 05, 2004 12:43 AM |
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We're not the ones who stole the name! 
I believe it's what's known as a JOKE Aquaman, nice to see you taking comments lightly again
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted March 05, 2004 12:47 AM |
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PH: LOL again! (You and I must have been posting at the same time)
Now which of us is it exactly who is suffering from PMS???
Love you dear. Just joking. BTW you guys didn't steal the name, we did. 
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I have menopause and a handgun. Any questions?
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted March 05, 2004 03:07 AM |
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OK, everybody. Back to topic. Sorry to spoil all the fun, but i don't like to read any more about damn football. 
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That is with the uncontrollable power – you do not have to fear it directly, but it does not satisfy you either. Dissatisfaction on its turn is a major contributor of all bad feelings.
I agree. However, I didn’t agree when you compared USA to N Korea, or when you located all the decision-making power in the hands of only one man. This reason, which you name “uncontrollable power”, is something I would call imperialism. It’s a constant tendency of American foreign policy, more or less independent of the current leaders. And true, you cannot control it. That’s why imperialism has always been a trait of world superpowers.
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..[democracy]…But for the rest (either misguided by anti-American propaganda or not) it may be a reason.
Democracy, the way it is, functions solidly well in the States. At least much better than most countries (including ours). And I think nobody suspects this. I can understand why some people feel dissatisfied, but the reason is the fact that not always (or very often) democratic government reflects the opinions of the majority. It’s the case all over the world.
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I agree that there are many more weird cultures, but I do not agree that spreadness makes it feel close to people. At least do not count me in! No more than one cowboy movie per life . The problem is that from US it is more difficult to look pass if you dislike its “weirdnesses”.
Spreadness of American show-business culture makes itself much more known to a wider range of people. Some like it and try to imitate it, while others (like you and me, for eg) despise it and want it out of their countries. In either case, its “weirdness” is not the reason for those feelings. Because how can it be weird, strange, when all people know it and get accustomed, even take some of its elements and try to incorporate them in their own cultures.
That’s why I think the examples you provided (football and metric system) are out of place. All in all, I think you and I believe in the same things, but you picked the wrong words to describe them.
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A truly superior country should not get nervous if an “arrogant pupil” behaves bad.
But any normal person would, if the arrogant, less-talented pupil is at the same time the strongest in the class and bullies smaller people all the time.
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I have lived in California for a year and must say that I did not enjoy it very much…. Btw I am from Estonia.
Hey, great! I’ve got a T-shirt an Estonian friend of mine gave me as a present, and I’m currently wearing it. It says: “Eesti Vaitlusselte”. I thought you could translate this 4 me. And I believe it would be VERY interesting for all of us here to hear (sorry – read) why you didn’t enjoy much living in the “greatest country in the world”. Please provide us with that info.
“Americans are being called many things like greedy, imperialistic, and arrogant.”
Yeah. Actually, it’s pretty simple, Consis. Money (“greedy”) brings power and power (“imperialistic”) brings arrogance (therefore – arrogant). Forgive my provincial logic, but if you take it a bit more seriously, you’ll see it’s the truth.
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Consis: The old, "If you are so powerful then help me with my country's problems" – belief.
PH: It has less to do with anti-american attitudes and more to do with people being pissed that they don't get help in some people's mindsets.
PH, my friend! I didn’t expect to hear this from you. Nobody would ask for help for their own problems, if the problems themselves weren’t caused by those who are now asked, in the first place. And are still being caused, btw! 200 years of ruthless colonization and exploitation – ring a bell?!
“The english are made to look unjustified nazis basically. Nothing was said about the reason why the English were in Scotland in the first place, ie the Scots had been raiding and pillaging Northern England for centuries, the English finally decided to do something about it. By extension, the English become unjustified murderers and rapists, the scots, the innocent avenging angels. Scots action is justified or washed over. English is made on par with Hitler.”
It’s called propaganda, something Western medias/ American directors are very good at. It was the same case when these medias are/were “reporting” for Iraq, Iran, Cuba, NATO intervention in Yugoslavia, even the conflict in Macedonia, and don’t let me go too far in the Cold War period. It’s not very pleasant when you are the victim now, is it.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted March 05, 2004 06:01 AM |
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Quote:
...why you didn’t enjoy much living in the “greatest country in the world”.
He was in California right? Enough said...
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted March 05, 2004 02:17 PM |
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PH, my friend! I didn’t expect to hear this from you. Nobody would ask for help for their own problems, if the problems themselves weren’t caused by those who are now asked, in the first place. And are still being caused, btw! 200 years of ruthless colonization and exploitation – ring a bell?!
Well firstly, the actions of the past (which were then considered quite normal) and specifically the British Empire were not my doing or my responsibility to recompense. Secondly, the Colonial period was more than ruthless exploitation and colonization, some of what happened back then was for the better, and the world would be much different today if not for it. Even so, you can't expect the British (for example) to have to continually bail out the world only because of the actions it took 100 years ago. You might as well demand the Italians solve the problems of the balkan area because of the actions of the Romans...
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It’s called propaganda, something Western medias/ American directors are very good at. It was the same case when these medias are/were “reporting” for Iraq, Iran, Cuba, NATO intervention in Yugoslavia, even the conflict in Macedonia, and don’t let me go too far in the Cold War period. It’s not very pleasant when you are the victim now, is it.
That's why anyone with a modicum of sense takes the average news reports with a pinch of salt. However, when dealing with history I tend to try to look from more than one side, so I'm fully aware of the way that western/american/british bias affects our view of history. I however see no reason to justify altering known history just because the British films did so in the past. The old "two wrongs" theory applies here.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted March 09, 2004 11:10 PM |
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Even so, you can't expect the British (for example) to have to continually bail out the world only because of the actions it took 100 years ago.
But, you do pretend you didn’t notice the words I wrote there “[problems of poor countries] And are still being caused, btw!”
And nobody is asking you to “bail out the world”, as you say. Just leave it alone!
What rich countries are doing (especially USA) is using the cheap work force in poor countries, using their resources and selling the finished good to gain the profit all for themselves. They keep their markets closed for foreign goods, in spite the fact they claim they advocate “free market”; and force pressure on poor countries to open wide their markets for their own products. I do think you are aware of this, that’s why I didn’t go into details.
And ps: I do think a compensation to some extent should be given for the atrocities of the past.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted March 09, 2004 11:29 PM |
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But, you do pretend you didn’t notice the words I wrote there “[problems of poor countries] And are still being caused, btw!”
And nobody is asking you to “bail out the world”, as you say. Just leave it alone!
Problems which are totally our fault then I take it? Excuse me, but we DO try and help were we can, we raise money, send aid, bail out countries in problems, tried to raise the issue of 3rd world debt and so on. Don't pretend for a moment that the issue is only one of the western world exploiting the 3rd world, there is some things done by the US and the UK which are good. Therefore, if we "left it alone" as you so desire, Israel would collapse sooner or later, famine strikes in Africa would kill many times their actual level, Russia's economy would fall apart, China's would struggle and so on. Don't kid yourself that all the west does is bankrupt small countries and bully their people.
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What rich countries are doing (especially USA) is using the cheap work force in poor countries, using their resources and selling the finished good to gain the profit all for themselves. They keep their markets closed for foreign goods, in spite the fact they claim they advocate “free market”; and force pressure on poor countries to open wide their markets for their own products. I do think you are aware of this, that’s why I didn’t go into details.
More than aware of it, however it's hardly the one way street you make it. Then again some of this is done by huge multinationals which are at times hard to touch. And the British do not "keep their markets closed" you'd be very suprised just what does come into this country from abroad, especially the commonwealth. Just as, at this moment we struggle to sell some of our exports such as beef and steel. Unlike some former colonial powers, we have kept very close ties with our former empire and tried to ensure some stability were possible.
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And ps: I do think a compensation to some extent should be given for the atrocities of the past.
Really? Would YOU be prepared to pay much higher taxes in order to pay someone in another country that you have never wronged just because your country fought with them 100 years ago? (hypothetically of course) I assure you that something like that will do nothing but raise tension and racial distrust in the country.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted March 09, 2004 11:35 PM |
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I Agree With Svarog
Quote:
What rich countries are doing (especially USA) is using the cheap work force in poor countries, using their resources and selling the finished good to gain the profit all for themselves. They keep their markets closed for foreign goods, in spite the fact they claim they advocate “free market”; and force pressure on poor countries to open wide their markets for their own products.
This is devilishly true. It's like a stampede of Superpowers rushing through the global markets trampling out the smaller less fortunate nations trying to stabilize their own countries. How can we combat this? I do not know.
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I do think a compensation to some extent should be given for the atrocities of the past.
Yes, and Brittain should give back those priceless Egyptian relics taken during the war. I believe there are three of particular value to the Egyptian people. The bust of Nyfretiti(did I spell that right?), rosetta stone, and another that I can't remember at present.
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Roses Are Red And So Am I
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted March 09, 2004 11:55 PM |
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Just like the French should empty the Louvre, the Italians should empty much of their cathedrals, the Americans should return their art and so on? Come on! We're talking about something that everyone's country has been involved in, not just mine. The Elgin marbles I agree should be returned as they are part of a set, but to suggest what you do is to demand the return of virtually every piece of art not currently residing in it's original country.
On the other issue, I suppose you'll be paying compensation then to the Mexicans for taking some of their land, the indians for seizing all of the US and so on too then consis? Britain is not so rich that it can afford to compensate everywhere it took 100+ years ago. I can't wait to see how much Russia owes for the cold war, or Germany for WWII. At this rate, everyone will demand compensation from everyone!
It happened, get over it already
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted March 10, 2004 12:34 AM |
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Too True
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On the other issue, I suppose you'll be paying compensation then to the Mexicans for taking some of their land, the indians for seizing all of the US and so on too then consis?
Hey just ask Peacemaker. She can tell you of all the laws and benefits the u.s. has in accordance with compensating the the native american indians. As for Mexico, that area was not internationally recognized as part of their country.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted March 10, 2004 12:41 AM |
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Hey just ask Peacemaker. She can tell you of all the laws and benefits the u.s. has in accordance with compensating the the native american indians. As for Mexico, that area was not internationally recognized as part of their country.
Funny how they saw it different and fought wars with you about them then I guess that excuse could cover the whole of the US if you wanted to be that pedantic
And by compensation I saw a case recently where we're talking payment of damages on the level of billions of dollars from just one small part of one of the lesser colonies we owned. I doubt the US is intending to award similar compensation to the Native Americans somehow Also the case demanded their entire former territory back from a certain country, something again I doubt would sit well in the states
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted March 10, 2004 11:47 AM |
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Edited By: Svarog on 10 Mar 2004
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Quote:
Excuse me, but we DO try and help were we can, we raise money, send aid, bail out countries in problems, tried to raise the issue of 3rd world debt and so on.
Oh please. It’s easy to display sympathy and compassion for Third World countries, after you suck them dry. Charity, aid and credits are just very effective ways to shut up the world public opinion. People get the idea that help is offered, but something completely different happens behind the scene. I’m not that horny anti-globalist myself, so i can’t give you the exact stats, but i ensure you that the amount of money that is sucked out of poor countries, compared to the cash flowing in through charity organizations is waaa……aaay bigger.
I understand that there are many individials in the West who give their best to stop this, like angelito here, and many others. But this is miniscule, compared with the harm done by their countries.
And raising the issue of Third World debt? This makes me laugh. You are the one that are against it, in the first place. So there’s no place for even mentioning this!
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Therefore, if we "left it alone" as you so desire, Israel would collapse sooner or later, famine strikes in Africa would kill many times their actual level, Russia's economy would fall apart, China's would struggle and so on.
Right, the West supports Russia’s and China’s econimies. Poor them, what would they do without their Western bretheren?!
And when I say “leave them alone”, i don’t mean to cease any contact with them, or anything. What I mean is to allow those countries to produce and sell for themselves, to open your countries for their goods, without selfishly protecting domestic producers (agriculture primarily), not exploiting their workforce and not influencing their political decisions.
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Then again some of this is done by huge multinationals which are at times hard to touch.
And whose fault is this? It’s a country’s duty to control their own companies, if they impose 20-hour work time, use child lagor, pay minimal wages, which they all clearly do.
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And the British do not "keep their markets closed" you'd be very suprised just what does come into this country from abroad, especially the commonwealth.
If I took your word for granted on your previous claims, I cant do it now, cause I live in a country which has troubles exporting our own goods, even though they are much cheaper and with reasonable well quality, compared to your domestic products. The subventions the European Union gives for agricultural producers and the customs on many kinds of goods, are a very difficult barrier for poor countries to pass, in order to sell their products. And believe me, the cost you see labeled on those products is many times bigger than the actual cost of the same product in the country of its origin.
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Would YOU be prepared to pay much higher taxes in order to pay someone in another country that you have never wronged just because your country fought with them 100 years ago?
I remember I said “to some extent” here. So, it’s not “MUCH higher taxes”, but I’m prepared to pay a symbolical sum, in order to compensate to countries, my country had done wrong in the past.
Anyway, I’m not talking about money, but more about laws and yes, you guessed yourself, returning of illegally taken artifacts form other countries, even if it means emptiing entire museums. Why? Because the “transactions” were done illegally, and that’s theft.
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We're talking about something that everyone's country has been involved in, not just mine.
An excuse? Oh come on. Just because most countries have made mistakes, it doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be corrected. And btw, it’s not everyone’s country, and not all countries have done it to the same extent. The UK, once the British Empire, surely has made more atrocities than Holland, for example. And you should accept the consequences of your actions now.
And another way of correcting the wrongs of the past, it just came up to my mind, is the case with Zimbabwe’s government, if i’m not mistaken, that adopted a program which takes the land form rich white landowners, and gives it back to the people, because it’s rightfully theirs. But now, the British in the first place, and the whole international community, put an enormous pressure on Zimbabwe to stop doing that. (I’m not well introduced with the details of this case, because I hear about it from BBC only)
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted March 10, 2004 02:30 PM |
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Oh please. It’s easy to display sympathy and compassion for Third World countries, after you suck them dry.
I take it that my point on the commenwealth failed to sink in then.
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Charity, aid and credits are just very effective ways to shut up the world public opinion.
Right, so I'll just quit doing all that voluntary work and fund raising then. I won't give money to famine relief anymore if it's such an obviously bad thing.
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And raising the issue of Third World debt? This makes me laugh. You are the one that are against it, in the first place. So there’s no place for even mentioning this!
Errr no, if you'd do some research you'd discover that the British government were in favour of removing the debt in time for the millenium, it was the US and world bank that blocked the issue, not the UK.
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Right, the West supports Russia’s and China’s econimies. Poor them, what would they do without their Western bretheren?!
Fall apart, I believe I made that point clear.
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And whose fault is this?
The entire international community.
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It’s a country’s duty to control their own companies,
Perhaps you don't understand, multi-national means it does not belong to, or reside in solely one country. This makes things harder to bring charges against them. Look at the US's problems when it tried to deal with Microsoft for example (though that was state/federal, the principle is similar)
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If I took your word for granted on your previous claims, I cant do it now, cause I live in a country which has troubles exporting our own goods, even though they are much cheaper and with reasonable well quality, compared to your domestic products.
So? I'm not responsible for your country's export system, however I do know that British goods do not sell that well abroad, and that the supermarkets here are filled with goods made abroad and imported here. Our livestock and farming industry and especially the fishing industry are in freefall.
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And believe me, the cost you see labeled on those products is many times bigger than the actual cost of the same product in the country of its origin.
The exact same as it is here. Farmers earn pittances for their lambs/cows for example compared to the cost of meat in supermarkets. Attempts to make it look like the situation only applies to imports into Britain just do not hold water sorry. You clearly have little idea of the cost of items in my country, or the industries here, therefore I find it a little interesting that you choose to criticise my ability to comment on them.
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I remember I said “to some extent” here. So, it’s not “MUCH higher taxes”, but I’m prepared to pay a symbolical sum, in order to compensate to countries, my country had done wrong in the past.
How marvelously niave of you, I however prefer to live in the real world.
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Anyway, I’m not talking about money, but more about laws and yes, you guessed yourself, returning of illegally taken artifacts form other countries, even if it means emptiing entire museums. Why? Because the “transactions” were done illegally, and that’s theft.
Problems happen here though, what is deemed illegal now was perfectly legal then. Therefore your point looses value, also your point lacks depth, emptying entire museums will do more harm than good.
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An excuse? Oh come on.
Nope, a logical point actually
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Just because most countries have made mistakes, it doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be corrected
So you're suggesting the already fragile russian economy should be further shattered by forcing them to repay their actions in the cold war and beyond? History is exactly that, gone, best left alone but from to learn. Part of that learning says forcing reperations on a people not responsible for the crimes results in angry reactions.
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And btw, it’s not everyone’s country, and not all countries have done it to the same extent
But they have done it.
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The UK, once the British Empire, surely has made more atrocities than Holland, for example.
You'd be suprised how big the Dutch empire was once, you're right, less than ours, but still the point you never fail to miss is that it has nothing to do with this generation who committed none of the crimes.
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And you should accept the consequences of your actions now.
That's the point, it's not "my" actions, it was the actions of my ancestors. Visiting another injustice on someone solves nothing and raises problems.
I strongly suggest btw that you pay more attention to the zimbabwe issue. Firstly they are removing farmers that have lived in the country for generations, ie they are as african as the black people. The land is as much "theirs" as it is anyone elses. Secondly, it is done through violent means, killings, rapes, intimidation. No compensation is offered, and Mugabe has no intention of doing it to be generous, but to keep quiet the murderous troops he used in his various wars. Throw in the fact that the farms are immensely wealthy ones, far improved from when they were occupied and the situation becomes much grayer than your first glance allows for.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Pitsu
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 11, 2004 11:53 AM |
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Edited By: Pitsu on 11 Mar 2004
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Have been very busy and cannot make a long post.
But in replay to Svarog:
I admit that some of my examples were could been better.
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Hey, great! I’ve got a T-shirt an Estonian friend of mine gave me as a present, and I’m currently wearing it. It says: “Eesti Vaitlusselte”. I thought you could translate this 4 me. And I believe it would be VERY interesting for all of us here to hear (sorry – read) why you didn’t enjoy much living in the “greatest country in the world”. Please provide us with that info.
I guess your T-shirt says [url=http://www.debate.ee/?keel=eng]"Eesti väitlusselts"[/url]. "Eesti" stands for Estonia(n), "väitlus" - debate or dicussion and "selts" means club or society.
Why I did not enjoy my time in CA mainly on personal reasons. Such as making no more money than enough for survival or the everlasting summer, when your biological clock needs four seasons. There where more reasons like the essentiality of car - whereever you go, you have to take car - ,which did not pleasure me. The summary effect anyway was that I never felt at home. I would happily go there again as a tourist, but not dreaming about living there.
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted March 16, 2004 09:48 PM |
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You are an interesting person, PH. While other people I communicate with, both here and in RL, try to get their opinions closer to one another, you put all your efforts into moving them further apart.
And basically, I noticed you agree with 90% of what I say, although you opposed all of them and moved them out of context. I mean no offence here, I’ll just try to straighten them and put them back in context.
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Right, so I'll just quit doing all that voluntary work and fund raising then. I won't give money to famine relief anymore if it's such an obviously bad thing.
You know well I didn’t say that. Charity is certainly welcome, when no other way to help poor countries exists. And btw, like you did all that until now
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Errr no, if you'd do some research you'd discover that the British government were in favour of removing the debt in time for the millenium, it was the US and world bank that blocked the issue, not the UK.
Why I find this hard to believe? Could you please provide me with a respectable link which proves that?
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Perhaps you don't understand, multi-national means it does not belong to, or reside in solely one country. This makes things harder to bring charges against them.
But companies are subject of laws, and the extent to which they are, depends on the government control of economical activity. You can legitimly disagree here, but I believe it’s neccessery in order to prevent capitalism going wild.
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So? I'm not responsible for your country's export system, however I do know that British goods do not sell that well abroad, and that the supermarkets here are filled with goods made abroad and imported here. Our livestock and farming industry and especially the fishing industry are in freefall.
It’s not our export system that is the problem. Just because you see imported goods in Britain, it doesn’t mean that the world trade system is fair and functioning. I already explained what’s the problem with it, so i’m not gonna do it again. However, you seem like a smart person, and i know it’s all clear to you, proven by the fact you didn’t quote those things (and you always quote everything )
Oh, and I perfectly understand that British economy also struggles for its success, but you miss a main point: It doesn’t struggle for survival, like Third World countries economies, and because of their failure to do so, people die there. A huge portion of that fault can be prescribed to rich countries policies.
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Problems happen here though, what is deemed illegal now was perfectly legal then. Therefore your point looses value, also your point lacks depth, emptying entire museums will do more harm than good.
It’s absolutely not the case that those artifact transactions were done legally then. If in some cases they were, fine with me – don’t give them back. But mostly, conquering armies, petty thieves selling them to foreign collectors, is not what I would call legal. And even though you say emptying museums would be “harmful”, I don’t agree. It’s harmful for your country maybe, but it’s justice (if the country of origin has the necessary conditions for keeping these jewels).
And, yes, I agree with you that financial reparations should be avoided, because of the complicated relations between countries. In most of the cases.
But the argument about, “this generation has nothing to do with it” holds no value, because relations are between countries, not generations.
Just as obligations and agreements remain when governments change, and entire generations also, the same way you cannot dodge responsibility. According to you, a 50-year term agreement can be legitimly broken because of the change of generations before it expires. This is not a principle in international law, you know.
And finally, about Zimbabwe. As I said, I’m not very familiar with the issue. But i did mention it as an example of giving back taken land to natives, a principle i believe should be followed, if done democratically. And might i remind you, in your own words, take the news about Zimbabwe with a pinch of salt.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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This thread is pages long: 
