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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Going out on a limb...
Thread: Going out on a limb...
bort
bort


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
posted July 11, 2001 04:06 PM

Going out on a limb...

Well, I'll probably be flamed into oblivion for my first post on this esteemed community, (long time reader, first time poster, blah, blah) but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I really like the changes that they claim to have made.
Why?
1 - The heroes can fight now.  As far as I'm concerned, this is the trump card.  Plus, since all of the heroes are (allegedly) unique, that should relieve some of the not-enough creatures problems.
2 - From what it sounds like, all of the different creatures (the few that there are...) are ACTUALLY different from eachother.  Let's face it, in homm3, there's not a whole lot of difference between say, the goblin, the trog, the pikemen, the swordsman, the dwarf, the demon, the ogre, etc.  Some have an axe, some have a spear, but they're all basically the same creature.  The cool creatures are the ones with special abilities, and didn't Maranthea say that they all have a special ability somewhere in one of her interviews?
3 - I like the multiple building tree idea
4 - I, for one, didn't like upgrades.  It took me two days instead of one to get any creatures worth getting.

I look forward to the flames.

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Gravdragon
Gravdragon


Known Hero
Barbarian
posted July 11, 2001 06:14 PM

I actually agree with you. Its better with -enter number of creature in homm 4 here- that are very different than just a bunch of upgradable creatures that are the same.

The heroes figthin is very cool but I dont like the idea of having to rescue him if he should go "unconscius". Having to take over his main with a less powerful hero when his main hero closes in on you, its very risky I think.
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arachnid
arachnid


Promising
Famous Hero
posted July 11, 2001 07:14 PM

Yeah alot of the creatures in heroes 3 dont seem to have much thought behind them and could be improved or replaced (zombies, nagas , demons ,orcs, dwarfs) I mean alot of these could have really unique specials and skills in AND out of combat. So maybe getting rid of some and really working on the ones that left is what should happen in heroes 4.

But...... i dont really think there going to do this; i think they will not improve them from what they are like in heroes 3 enough. So it will end up very similar to homm3 but with less creatures/options (hope im wrong about this).

I also hope they dont have only four levels in h4 i mean what would this add ??


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bort
bort


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
posted July 11, 2001 07:41 PM

Well, I admit that 4 levels is a bit low...  I don't think that the suggestions for 10 or 11 levels would work very well though.  I also don't really see how allowing both 1st level dwellings is much good.  I normally leave even centaurs (in my opinion, the king of 1st levels) behind before long.
It probably will get really annoying having to trudge across  the map to rescue your hero.  I think it will be worth it, though.  I started my wargaming experience playing Warhammer, and I always loved the way that heroes and generals could so dramatically affect the battle.  It would also be like Romance of the Three Kingdoms (the book, not the game) where so many of the battles are determined by champions.  Or like T*****n, (because I know that's a touchy topic on these boards) where Legolas and Gimli (do I have the names right) hack through a whole bunch of the orcs on their own.

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arachnid
arachnid


Promising
Famous Hero
posted July 11, 2001 07:53 PM

yeah i really like how heroes can fight as well (i dont think there was a stage where i did not anyway) this is a big step for heroes but one of the only ones there making. In many of the screenshots ive seen in one army they was many heroes if your able to do this i hope they have been made different enough for some variations.

Heroes fighting adds alot of strategy to the game i just hope we dont have to look after them too much and keep them out of combat alot of the time (whats the point in fighting if they are beaten easy?)
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Oldtimer
Oldtimer


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Please leave a message after..
posted July 11, 2001 08:05 PM

I love the idea of capturing heroes.  It totally changes game strategy.  If you spend alot of time creating a powerful hero and he is now a captive you now have a rescue mission to plan and execute.  Also you might be able to catch those powerful magicians that cast one spell and retreat for home.  Now your opponant must come into your territory or lose his best guy. This leads to ambush opportunities and hide and seek.
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bort
bort


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
posted July 12, 2001 05:18 PM

Actually, I hadn't even really thought about all the strategy that capturing heroes would add.  You're absolutely right about that ambush thing, especially since aren't they introducing some sort of "fog of war"?  You could go capture some mid level hero and set a trap for the bad-ass hero that comes and tries to rescue him!
I wonder if they're still allowing heroes to retreat like they used to.  I hope not.  That always annoyed me.

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dark_hunter7
dark_hunter7


Known Hero
Order, mages, lords, the RULE
posted July 12, 2001 10:24 PM

Uve got the right Idea bort! Finally someone that speaks my thoughts.... and I like how each town will have it's own magic type and how stronghold i finally STRONGHOLD not abit of amgic and lots good creatures now its way better! no more same creatures different looks thing!
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thunderknight
thunderknight


Promising
Famous Hero
posted July 13, 2001 10:06 PM

Ya, I agree with most of ideas here.

Setting ambush is cool. How about bribe of heroes as suggested by ....... I think should be SirDunco....
I mean maybe you can pursuade the captured heroes to switch side especially when your opponent constantly abuse the hit&run tactic. You can talk to the captured "hit&run" hero:

"Look, your boss never like you and always make you doing this kind of sh** work. How about joining my side ? I would make you my main general, double salary, medical, housing allowance.....etc etc... "

BTW, it is "interesting" that you haven't got flamed....yet, bort.
But don't worry, I would be with you coz you know the book Romance of The Three Kingdoms. haha.

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Sha_Men
Sha_Men


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jack-Of-No-Trades
posted July 13, 2001 10:20 PM

Great first post...

I wholeheartedly agree with you...
I would like to see game as good as Homm3 in Homm4 and even better. Only time will tell are these changes really for good because Heroes series could lose their own flavor and come closer to Age of Heroes and Disciples. I don't care about these games, both have their own problems and I'm not going to go into details, but maybe 3do won't blew it and we will see HoMM4 as best game of the series...

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Coldfyrius
Coldfyrius


Promising
Famous Hero
Vice-God for Marketing
posted July 13, 2001 10:47 PM bonus applied.

I must respectfully disagree.

Quote:
1 - The heroes can fight now.  As far as I'm concerned, this is the trump card.  Plus, since all of the heroes are (allegedly) unique, that should relieve some of the not-enough creatures problems.

This thing will be a nightmare to balance.  And with the shoddy level of beta testing that's done these days, it won't work.  Either having a hero will make garrisons, wandering monsters, etc., pushovers, or safeguarding your hero from being taken out round 1 by a stack of Orcs will make heroes worthless.
Quote:
2 - From what it sounds like, all of the different creatures (the few that there are...) are ACTUALLY different from eachother.  Let's face it, in homm3, there's not a whole lot of difference between say, the goblin, the trog, the pikemen, the swordsman, the dwarf, the demon, the ogre, etc.  Some have an axe, some have a spear, but they're all basically the same creature.  The cool creatures are the ones with special abilities, and didn't Maranthea say that they all have a special ability somewhere in one of her interviews?

I think vanilla units were a big part of the game.  Every town had a few universal unit types, and so learning how to play two types of towns isn't impossibly hard.
Quote:
3 - I like the multiple building tree idea.

I dislike it.  Think of how hard it'll be to balance.  Take Asylum, for instance.  After about a month, everybody will figure out what units are beter than their parallels.  For instance, everybody will know that Medusa is better than Minotaur, that Efreeti will kick Venom Spawn's ass, and that Dragon will be much better than Hydra.
Quote:
4 - I, for one, didn't like upgrades.  It took me two days instead of one to get any creatures worth getting.

I say the base creatures are "worth getting."

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Sha_Men
Sha_Men


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jack-Of-No-Trades
posted July 13, 2001 11:02 PM

Hmm...

This is all about if 3do will make it happen and make it good or not, is it not, dear Coldfyrious?

1. Heroes fighting themselves.
This can be strong point because now you don't have to rely on so heavily into those creatures and even high level creatures may have found they match from heroes.

2. Each unit are unique
This is a must be (my opinion only and entirely) and should have been in HoMM3. Now you have to study the game really to play it well, not just to take the best unit of level x and start beating creatures up.

3. Multiple building tree
Game balance is hard to achieve, but if it works it makes game more challenging as you have to do strategic choices what units to produce. And this even more true if you look at number 2 reason. You just can't take the guy with better stats, you have to take the guy you need in that moment with his unique special and also the cost of the unit is essential. Will multiple building tree work or not, I think it's entirely gaming balance issue.

4. Upgrades
But you would pick the upgrades anyhow? I certainly don't remember time when I would have picked the base creatures when upgraded where available. Only problem is that you have fewer buildings to be build.


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bort
bort


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
posted July 14, 2001 03:51 AM

And I, in turn will respectfully disagree (partially) with you, Coldfyrius.  

You're absolutely right that most of the changes will be a pain to balance, but I think that will be a problem with or without the changes.  There is always a few "best" creatures and a few crap-tacular creatures, although that normally depends on strategy.  If the game is unbalanced, I don't think it will be because of the changes made.  If anything, I think the fewer towns and creatures will make it considerably easier to balance.  The only time a game can be completely balanced is if you have both sides exactly the same (ie - chess).

Wow, I just used the word "balance" 4 times in one paragraph.

As far as the heroes being particularly bad in this respect (note, I did not use the b word) I don't think it will be.  If anybody ever played Master of Magic, the heroes were not at all unb*****cing, unless they got all kinds of artifacts, but that's always a problem.

Some vanilla creatures are necessary, but not 3-4 per town.

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Oldtimer
Oldtimer


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Please leave a message after..
posted July 14, 2001 09:01 PM

Hypothetical:
    Player 1 develops a superhero and he gets captured by Player 2.  When Player 3 rescues the superhero does he swear loyalty to 3 and now fight against 1?  Can 1 recapture hero to use or must he wait until 2 recaptures hero and then try to rescue him to get him back?
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Sha_Men
Sha_Men


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jack-Of-No-Trades
posted July 15, 2001 12:52 AM

Can heroes change sides?

Quote:
Hypothetical:
    Player 1 develops a superhero and he gets captured by Player 2.  When Player 3 rescues the superhero does he swear loyalty to 3 and now fight against 1?  Can 1 recapture hero to use or must he wait until 2 recaptures hero and then try to rescue him to get him back?


I have got the impression that heroes can't change sides during the game now...
When you buy a hero it will stay as your hero to the end of game.
BTW this creates the problem of overcrowded prisons...
First a hero is captured by enemy, then second one goes to rescue him/her and this continues to the end of time...
Maybe some of them can be executed...

I think it wouldn't make any sense if heroes would be put into prison first, but they couldn't be taken into service by their imprisoners until someone tries to rescue them...

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Oldtimer
Oldtimer


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Please leave a message after..
posted July 15, 2001 05:02 AM

In HOMM3 the hero swears loyalty to whomever frees him.  If we can now capture heroes it makes sence that they will swear to the rescurer or maybe the rescuer can ransom him back to original Player.  We Play alot of hotseat games with four or five players, I can see rescuing A superhero as a new way to promote lively discussions and alliace deals.
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Sha_Men
Sha_Men


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jack-Of-No-Trades
posted July 15, 2001 03:41 PM

So who ever frees them gets them?...

That would really add something to some multiplayer maps.
It would be great idea to be able to get ransom from prisoned hero.
But what happens if somebody have more than one hero in the prison? Does one who frees them get them all?

You could get many heroes and their artifacts just freeing one town...

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Oldtimer
Oldtimer


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Please leave a message after..
posted July 15, 2001 10:19 PM
Edited by alcibiades at 16:28, 08 Jan 2008.

Can you hold more than one hero in a prison?

I really want to steal some guy's best hero who has been kicking my butt all day and send him against his former master.  Just so I can watch while he kills his favorite hero.




Moderator's note:This topic has been closed, as it refers to an older version of the game. To discuss Heroes 3, please go to Library Of Enlightenment, to discuss Heroes 4, please go to War Room Of Axeoth.
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