|
|
Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
|
posted February 12, 2004 08:02 AM |
|
Edited By: Consis on 6 Sep 2004
|
Gay People Have My Respect
Martin Luther King jr. said it best,
"I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal." I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slaveowners will be able to sit down together at a table of brotherhood. I have a dream that one day even the state of Mississippi, a desert state, sweltering with the heat of injustice and oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice. I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. I have a dream today.
I have a dream that one day the state of Alabama, whose governor's lips are presently dripping with the words of interposition and nullification, will be transformed into a situation where little black boys and black girls will be able to join hands with little white boys and white girls and walk together as sisters and brothers. I have a dream today. I have a dream that one day every valley shall be exalted, every hill and mountain shall be made low, the rough places will be made plain, and the crooked places will be made straight, and the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together. This is our hope. This is the faith with which I return to the South. With this faith we will be able to hew out of the mountain of despair a stone of hope. With this faith we will be able to transform the jangling discords of our nation into a beautiful symphony of brotherhood. With this faith we will be able to work together, to pray together, to struggle together, to go to jail together, to stand up for freedom together, knowing that we will be free one day."
And he ended saying, "Free at last, Great God Almighty, Free at last!"
This is how I feel about homosexual people. They're just another human being to me. I don't understand how they think or what they do in their sexual habits but I'll be damned before I let them be harassed, threatened, tortured, or killed for who they are. I don't necessarily agree with the direction of a certain legislative action that took place in Boston but civil rights is what this country is all about.
That's the answer to this question. Civility of our fellow american human beings is at the top of my list. I've been looking but have not found the name of a particular individual on board Flight 91. There was a "Gay-American" on board that flight and if you ask me everyone who fought those monsters in that plane is a hero. I have a book describing the events as told by Lisa Beamer(wife of Todd) but it doesn't mention who the gay american was. It only tells the names of the passengers. Every person on that flight gave their lives to stop the terrorists and force the plane down over Pennsylvania. If they hadn't stopped them then the plane might have hit the capitol in Washigton D.C. If a gay-american thinks he or she has`the right to a civil union then I support their decision 100%. They deserve the same rights as any other american who has fought to keep this country safe.
____________
Roses Are Red And So Am I
|
|
redhawk
Known Hero
Gaurdian Supreme
|
posted February 18, 2004 02:22 AM |
|
|
I don't like homosexuality nor do respect gays, but I will defend there right to chose there own path in life. Just as I have chosen mine. Treat others as you would like to be treated, HONOR, DIGNITY, and FREEDOM of CHOICE.
____________
It's better to burn out, Than fade away !!!!!!!!
|
|
Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
|
|
posted February 18, 2004 03:06 AM |
|
|
Redhawk, I know it is a lot of material, but if you would read the thread Same Sex Marriage in concert with this one (also found in Other Side of the Monitor), it has been discussed rather extensivly that homosexuality occurs virtually cross-culturally, despite societal or religious tenets and taboos, at the approximate rate of 10.5%. Further, the widespread occurrence of homosexuality among several species of mammals suggests the phenomenon is not limited to humans, even further lending support to the notion that such occurrence is a "natural phenomenon."
There is no data (that I know of) to suggest that homosexuals suffer from any kind of chemical "imbalance" other than variant levels of male versus female hormones, or that intelligence bears any correlation whatsoever to homosexuality.
Please correct me folks if these statements are incorrect.
BTW, I for one applaud your statement that, despite your self-admitted less-than-glowing opinion of homosexuals, you believe in peoples' rights to be free. Separating those two issues is something that many people seem to have trouble doing. They are, in fact, separate issues. You make a very important point here.
____________
I have menopause and a handgun. Any questions?
|
|
redhawk
Known Hero
Gaurdian Supreme
|
|
posted February 18, 2004 03:34 AM |
|
|
The post about chemical imbalance or retardation, was my vain attempt to get people back on topic, As for animals being gay, it is not homosexuality,it is in my opinion A dominance issue. I raise dogs and horses and both species mount the same sex to make the other submit I have yet to see any intercourse between same sex animals, of course it is not something that I am avidly watching for. I do watch the discovery channel and Animal planet If there was an issue of it being true I have yet to here or see it, I am not saying It doesn't exist, I just don't believe that it does, at least not for the same reasons that humans are homosexual.
____________
It's better to burn out, Than fade away !!!!!!!!
|
|
Nimrod_The_D...
Known Hero
PoStEr Of BaBeS
|
|
posted March 10, 2004 04:15 PM |
|
|
uhmm... theres one thing i dont like, and that is all the publisity Gay Couples are getting. What if our Children get the idea that being gay is normal?
i meen, it really is not! is it?
____________
[naked Girl]
|
|
Vadskye91
Promising
Supreme Hero
Back again
|
|
posted March 10, 2004 04:24 PM |
|
|
No, it's not normal. Definitely not normal.
____________
Knowledge is power...
|
|
Nimrod_The_D...
Known Hero
PoStEr Of BaBeS
|
|
posted March 10, 2004 08:20 PM |
|
|
i agree.
____________
[naked Girl]
|
|
regnus_khan
Responsible
Supreme Hero
[ Peacekeeper of Equilibris ]
|
|
posted March 10, 2004 08:28 PM |
|
|
everyone has its right to choose its destiny. If that's what's going to happen to your child, I presume it is his own destiny.
I'm not gay and I won't become one. But if someone wants to be a gay, let it be.
BTW, it may look that gay people are not normal. I do not think it's as normal as relationship between two different sexes, though I have nothing against the gay people.
I think this opinion should be in some of your minds too.
____________
|
|
Nimrod_The_D...
Known Hero
PoStEr Of BaBeS
|
|
posted March 10, 2004 08:48 PM |
|
|
yes it is. But, it is not normal to be gay! and latly, more and more people are gay. i wonder if that is because it is more accepted, or because they are brainwashed by the media...
____________
[naked Girl]
|
|
Asmodean
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Heroine at the weekend.
|
|
posted March 11, 2004 02:20 AM |
|
|
You can't be brainwashed into being gay silly . If this was true, governments would have long ago developed a brainwashing technique that made gay people straight.
It's not about 'becoming' gay. That is a wrong belief that many people seem to hold. I think it's because people generally don't tell their friends/family until their late teens/twenties. Then it seems as if they've 'become' gay. But actually they were gay all along, but just hiding it.
No one knows why some of us are gay. All the research into it has been totally inconclusive. It affects all cultures, which makes it seem like it's not environmental in cause, but there have been instances of identical twins where one is straight and one is gay, which rules out the genetic causes as well. This is just a simplistic view of the research, but it should give you gius the basic gist.
Never assume that someone has 'chosen' to be gay. If you think that, ask yourself - Could YOU choose to be gay?
I think you'll find the answer is no.
____________
To err is human, to arr is pirate.
|
|
Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
|
posted March 11, 2004 05:46 AM |
|
Edited By: Consis on 6 Sep 2004
|
Based On Merits
Asmodean, I'm going to tell you right now that I like you. This is only after reading your posts and determining the great things about you as a person. That's how I think gay people should be approached. I think they should be reacted to based on their merits.
What have they done as a person? If they have done great things then that would warrant applause. If they have done terrible things then that would warrant an arms-length relationship so to speak.
But what if you don't know a person's merits? What if you find yourself stuck in an elevator with a bunch of people and one guy says he is gay. What do you do? What do you say? First of all why start a conversation with such a phrase? I'll tell you what I would say to him. I'd say, "Excuse me but you can keep your sexual preferences to yourself thankyou!" I'd continue with, "Further more it's very nice to meet you sir. My name is Consis and we all seem to be in quite a spot here wouldn't you say? How do you think we should approach escaping this elevator?"
This is how I think lots of people at home are feeling. They sit there, watch the news, and see people saying nothing more than they are gay. What am I supposed to say to that? That tells me nothing about the person except that they are sexually driven to the same sex. The thing is, it's the kissing scenes that really bother me. I'm one of those people that would laugh and laugh at Bugs Bunny when he dressed up like a girl and went around kissing Elmer Fudd. I thought it was hilarious. Then I see shows on t.v. where two guys are kissing! That really bothers me! I can barely even look to tell you the truth! Contrary to that I feel just fine watching a love story that shows men kissing women and so forth. Am I hypocrit for feeling that way? It all seems so confusing to me.
Being gay won't cause me to lean in favor nor against the person telling me that so they might as well simply keep it to themselves. I don't go flaunting the details of my sex life to people I've just met, i.e. this community. All I had to say was that I have a beautiful wife. From there people can figure out the rest if I tell them I have three kids.
____________
Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
|
|
Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
|
|
posted March 11, 2004 05:22 PM |
|
|
Consis --
First of all, I think if you are on an elevator and some stranger blurts out he is gay then this guy has a real problem, which by the way is not his being gay. An elevator is about the last place people even exchange greetings, let alone blurt out intimate life details when there is no means of escape -- at least for a few terribly awkward seconds...
Second of all, I don't really get your point, I mean about people blurting out their sexual preference. I understand what you are saying -- that an individual should be judged on the merits of their lives irrespective of sexual preference. But it seems like your are implicitly suggesting that people ought not to disclose about this.
I think the problem with this is that homosexuals have been forced to live in the "closet" for so long -- to basically put up a false front and hide an essential part of their nature -- that the recent freedom of disclosure has been quite liberating for them. I don't know this for sure, but it seems to make sense.
For instance, it might be a little like you being forced to walk around dressed as a woman, everyone thinking you're a woman, when in fact you are clearly not (to yourself) a woman and dislike being perpetually misperceived (sorry guys for the extremely loose reference to transvestitism -- I know there's a difference but I think Consis can get the general idea from the analogy). Wouldn't there be a deep-seated part of you that silently screamed out, BUT I"M REALLY A MAN!!!! Wouldn't you prefer -- even desperately want -- people to know that about you as an essential part of your nature???
Also, you might notice that usually the blurting process does not come out of the blue in a vacuum ("Hi, I'm gay, what's your name?") -- but rather more likely comes from someone who, a) is an acquaintence or friend of yours and wants you to know who they really are versus your inaccurate perception of who they are, and/or b) is discussing a socio-political issue involving homosexuality that affects them directly in some way.
Also, I for one appreciate your honesty about feelings of discomfort and confusion that arise when seeing two men kissing. I know that a lot of guys react that way, but you know it's funny, they are all American white men. Is it possible that this has been ingrained in you through years of programming by an insidiously homophobic society? That's just one possible theory. I invite other men to comment on how that makes you and others in your countries or communities feel when seeing two men kissing. (As for me, it is just wierd to see -- it just doesn't compute, but I'm not necessarily grossed out by it or anything and find myself sort-of silently applauding whenever I see it, thinking right on man...they're being themselves and the rest of the world who doesn't like it be damned).
Finally, I know this has been brought up before, but isn't it wierd how most of the negative feelings surround men kissing, and there seems to be much less furor over the notion of two women kissing? What's that all about anyways?
____________
I have menopause and a handgun. Any questions?
|
|
Vadskye91
Promising
Supreme Hero
Back again
|
|
posted March 11, 2004 06:04 PM |
|
|
Well we got all the shock of seeing women kissing out of our systems with Britney Spears. 
____________
Knowledge is power...
|
|
Wiseman
Known Hero
|
|
posted March 11, 2004 08:02 PM |
|
|
I often wonder why does it disturb me more to see two men
kiss than a man and a really ugly woman.
A man is disturbed by seeing two men kiss because he automatically puts himself in their place,and he likes
seeing two women kiss because it`s part of his fantasies.
|
|
Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
|
posted March 11, 2004 08:08 PM |
|
Edited By: Consis on 6 Sep 2004
|
Kissing
When I see a man and a woman kissing I ask myself some questions first.
1. Do I think they make a good couple?
2. Is one of them too old or too young?
3. What kind of kiss does it appear to be? Is it passionate, a peck, loving, soft, or aggressive?
4. A very rare question I ask myself is do they appear to be ethnically oriented. When I ask this I mean to say, does the issue of ethnicity influence their mate choosing decisions? If my answer seems to be yes from their appearance then I am led to wonder how influencial this detail is to their mate choosing decision. Some people only want a person of one race for some reason. I do not know why but it is true. As for myself I tend to stay away from very pale white-skinned women with red hair and freckles. It is an instant turn off for me. Sometimes I'll hear women talking about their dream date with a man who is tall, dark, and handsome.
If I see a girl or woman kissing another girl or woman then my list of questions is dramatically changed.
1. Are the two attractive to me?
2. Is one of them too old or too young?
If I see a man kissing a man there arise no questions, only disgust. I reel and turn from the sight immediately.
Let me try using an analogy for myself to try and understand why this might be. If I think on it and choose an item of symbolic representation then perhaps I can better understand this occurence. As I think about it, if I take two knight's shields and bang them together then it only makes me think of an offensive defense to which there is no end and no beginning.  Immovable yet sturdy and strong causing a few dents here and there while maintaining the flag painted on each of their outter hulls. If I take a sword and clash it against the shield then it may cause me to look objectively with a sense of logic to it. Eventually either the sword or the shield will prevail. The sword may penetrate the shield's defense or the shield may simply deflect the volley of powerful blows by the sword. Even if the sword is succesfully deflected that leaves the sword with its respect intact and honorable making it no less cappable for the next encounter. In fact it was respect in the first place that caused the shield to raise against the sword to defend itself knowing fully well what the sword is capable of. If we see two swords clashing together  then just about everyone may agree with it. Some think it to be daring and edgy with a sense of adventure. Some might say that the two swords would fare better had they each a shield to block unweildy blows.
You see my analogy there seems to paint a picture of logical respect and understanding as opposed to confusing stubborness and lacking inclination to start. i.e. who wants to simply bash shields all day?
Analyzing The Analogy
When looking at the analogy let's say that the sword represents females and the shield represents males. Now let's apply the descriptions and remove the symbols.
Two males together = offensive defense to which there is no end and no beginning. Immovable yet sturdy and strong giving a few explanations here and there while maintaining what they represent on each of their outter persons. Confusing stubborness and lacking inclination to start.
Two females together = just about everyone may agree with it. Some think it to be daring and edgy with a sense of adventure. Some might say that the two females would fare better had they each a male to live life to the fullest.
 Male and Female together = Logical respect and understanding. Eventually either the female or the male will prevail. The female may reach through the male's rigid insensitivity or the male may bluntly deflect the exquisite beauty of the female. Even if the female is succesfully rejected then that leaves the female with her dignity intact and honorable making her no less capable for the next encounter. In fact it was respect in the first place that caused the male to raise his attention towards the female to engage her knowing fully well what she is capable of.
--------------------------------------------
Why do I behave this way and react in that fashion? I honestly do not know. It is, however, quite instinctive and happens without a necessary thought.
All comments are welcome.
____________
Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
|
|
Nimrod_The_D...
Known Hero
PoStEr Of BaBeS
|
|
posted March 11, 2004 08:41 PM |
|
|
one Q:
i react with vomiting look and a feeling of disgrace when i see male gays kissing, but i do no react in that way with lesbians. why??
____________
[naked Girl]
|
|
Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
|
|
posted March 12, 2004 12:13 AM |
|
|
Wow Consis.
I know a lot of people find you verbose and confusing. But the more I read of your stuff, I find you really very bluntly honest and revealing in your disclosures and I really, really respect that.
But this analogy of swords and shields -- and of one of the "combatents" in a sexual relationship always being a prevailing party (implying a zero-sum game = one winner one loser) -- we need to talk, man. There's some pretty serious symbolism going on there, not to mention eons of programming about sexual dominance/submission, conquest-type thinking. I hope that doesn't sound offensive, but your analogy invites a certan analysis and I think we should probably talk on the side a bit before I go on.
Interesting dialogue. Thanks, man.
|
|
Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
|
posted March 12, 2004 02:50 AM |
|
Edited By: Consis on 6 Sep 2004
|
It Is Worldly Historic As You Say
Peacemaker thanks for the compliments. I like you too.
Quote:
There's some pretty serious symbolism going on there
A most serious nature indeed.
Quote:
eons of programming about sexual dominance/submission, conquest-type thinking
Quite true. Therein lies the question Peacemaker. How does modern society combat eons of programmed sexual dominance/submission in a conquested fashion?
I honestly cannot answer it because I don't know how. I suppose I can start to try and answer but who, then, could validate my thinking? Another male who agrees? Does that make it right because together we form a group of people that agrees? I say no. I say that the heart is the validation. There is more in a person's heart than meets the eye. To each their own heart and each their own desires.
I do agree with your analysis of my example. It is what you say. I suppose identification is the first step in admitting you have a problem. There I said it. Do I know how to rise above it? No. I will try but if I feel forced in any way such as the elevator story then that will only cause me to buckle down and reject suggestions. I don't like a person who is so blatently direct with their sexual preferences.
____________
Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
|
|
IRh
Famous Hero
Lizard
|
posted March 12, 2004 07:55 AM |
|
|
Shield? Sword? What do such metaphoras have to do with sex? Don't you have more to do than typing this pseudo-poetic crap?
____________
|
|
Khaelo
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Underwater
|
|
posted March 12, 2004 08:38 PM |
|
Edited By: Khaelo on 12 Mar 2004
|
First: 13 Thoughts against Gay Marriage (it's been expanded to 50ish Thoughts against Gay Marriage by now...all of them heavily dosed with sarcasm  )
Second: I was going to make a snarky comment to IRh about missing the masculine aspect of swords, until I read Consis's post more carefully and realized that he's attributed swords to women! Wow! Way to turn the symbolism on its head! Traditionally, men have been considered the dominant/aggressive partners, while women are supposed to meekly submit. Personally, since I believe in the power of symbols, I think reversing symbology is one of the most interesting ways to shift our thinking and look at things in new ways.
That said, I also have issues with imposing concepts of masculinity and femininity, whether traditional or new, onto real people. (connection to "Personality" thread in Tavern: ) My avatar is of ambiguous gender particularly because I don't want people slotting me into male or female stereotypes. Sometimes I go about things in a feminine way; sometimes I am more masculine. In the end, I am just a mutable, complex person like any other. That principle applies to people's behavior in relationships as well.
Third: Historically, the "authorities" have not reacted or even acknowledged female homosexuality. The Greeks and Romans weren't concerned with it because it did not endanger the legitimacy of children. They were very concerned with active/passive, though. Passivity was considered a feminine trait, and one who had submitted to penetration was ineligable for citizenship, since citizens were male. You had to qualify to be masculine, and any ambiguous behavior landed you in the inferior feminine category (there is perhaps a connection here with mixed-race; in the US, a person of mixed heritage has historically been classified according to their non-white parent -- again, the non-privileged identity becomes the default). Therefore, in the Greek/Roman context, two women kissing meant little because it had no social implications. Two men kissing meant endangering someone's status. I won't get into the roundabout behaviors they used to reconcile this with the idealized persuer/persued relationship with a male youth...
Victorians assumed the sex drive to be primarily male, so women left to their own devices wouldn't get into any trouble. Even today, some people think that lesbians can't have "real" sex with one another. For some reason, "real" sex must involve that particularly male bit. I don't know if this connects to the kissing paradox, but it's an interesting piece of the puzzle.
Fourth: Whenever people mention their partner, engage in public displays of affection, hit on someone, or display pictures of their family, they are announcing their sexuality, whatever orientation that may be. This is not flaunting! (okay, the public displays of affection might be, but that's a different issue) Gay Pride parades and the like are only necessary because the LGBT community, especially in 3rd World countries, suffers from a lack of visibility. Do we still need Gay Pride in San Franscisco? Probably not. People know gays exist there, so the parades have become social occasions and rallies for particular issues. But officials in other countries are still saying homosexuality is a Western phenomenon and does not occur in their nations! In these cases, there is a point to announcing one's orientation apart from the relationship context. I do agree that elevators are not the appropriate forums(fora?) for such announcements, but television is. After all, the goal is visibility.
Edit: restructured paragraphs
____________
 Cleverly
disguised as a responsible adult
|
| |
|
|
This thread is pages long: 
