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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Minimum Wage
Thread: Minimum Wage This thread is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT»
Svarog
Svarog


Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
posted February 03, 2005 02:24 AM

Well, I think that proffessor is totally off track. To argue that the reasons for the 1848 revolutions and the french revolution were liberal tendencies on national (or even global, if u like) scale, would mean ignoring all the other political, economical and cultural circumstances. I'm not familiar with those laws promoting free trade that were brought around then, but it seems stupid to me to suppose that those limited events could have had such impact on history. Unless I see some kind of logical explanation for that, i reject it as a complete nonesense.
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RedSoxFan3
RedSoxFan3


Admirable
Legendary Hero
Fan of Red Sox
posted February 03, 2005 03:44 AM

Terje:
Quote:

Quote:

Many local businesses pay teenagers minimum wage. If you were to raise the minimum wage, then you would basically be putting more money into the pockets of teenagers and taking it away from the local businesses.


I said I would get back to the issue of what came first of high wages and economical growth.
In RSF's example, the teenager, being paid more money, will be able to but himself more stuff. This stuff has to be made by someone, and when the teenager increases his consumption, the manufacturers of the products the stuff teenagers buy can increase their production, and hire more people, which in turn will increase consuption, and so on... What the "local businesses" lose in increased wage costs, they gain in incom with the increased consumption (directly or indirectly).

FDR understood this. During the Great Depression, he worked to increase the purchasing power of the middle and working classes through large public projects. In this way he managed to lift the US, and through that the world, out of the Great Depression. And all thanks to John Maynard Keynes, the great social democrat and economist


No Terje. Because the minimum wage is lower than what the average person supporting a household makes, it allows there to be room to supply a surplus of jobs for teenagers, because companies will pay teenagers the low minimum wage there is now. If you were to raise the minimum wage, companies wouldn't hire teenagers anymore, because they wouldn't want to pay them that much money, thus you would be taking a lot of spending power out of the market, because teenagers wouldn't be making money anymore.

Umm.. as for the Great Depression reference. They lowered minimum wage down to the bone. An old saying says basically that no wage is too low during a depression. So if you make sure everyone has a little money, then the economy will be better off. Raising the minimum wage does the opposite. It forces companies to lay off employees and choose who they deem as the better employees. This effectively takes money out of the hands of one person and puts it into someone who already has money.

Let's make an example. Why don't we double minimum wage? Okay that means that now every company has to pay their employees twice as much. Most of the time companies, especially small businesses barely break even every year. Maybe get a little bit of profit if they are lucky. Small businesses cannot afford to pay employees this much and will have to lay off half their employees. Now you have half as many people with money. This means you have half as many people buying things. You might say that they will buy twice as much. Nope, people usually tend to save up their money and horde it away for things like college etc...

This only slows down the cash flow of the market place. Two people can spend the same amount of money much faster than one person simply out of necessity.

I can regive my other example of what happens when you raise the minimum wage. The small business has the other option of raising the prices of their product and now we are back to the whole inflation thing. High amounts of inflation has been proven to be a bad thing in just about any economy. Raising the minimum wage definitely causes inflation.

Terje:
Quote:

Quote:

However it's been proven time and time again that lowering the minimum wage creates jobs, so then obviously raising it will do the opposite.


The way I've learned this, it's been proven time and again that raising the minimum wages increases a country's total production (see my examples above for more indepth stuff on this...).
Also, when they are paid properly (and this is true; Taylorism died in the '30s, at least in the rest of the world) the workers can consentrate on just one job, and will thus become more focused at this one, and doing a better job. Also, social security makes workers relax, stopping to concern too much about the future, and so they are able to concentrate more on the job at hand.


Well I don't know anyone who has more than one job at minimum wage pay. I think this is a problem that is a special situation that doesn't happen very often. Just about everyone I know, middle class, lower class, they work one job and it's above minimum wage.

The first job I ever had. I started out .25 cents above minimum wage. After I had the job for a while got a 50 cent raise, and then they raised minimum wage .75 cents and now I was making minimum wage. I certainly don't think that's fair that other people get a raise for doing nothing.
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terje_the_ma...
terje_the_mad_wizard


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
posted February 07, 2005 09:33 PM

Svarog:
Quote:
Well, I think that proffessor is totally off track. To argue that the reasons for the 1848 revolutions and the french revolution were liberal tendencies on national (or even global, if u like) scale, would mean ignoring all the other political, economical and cultural circumstances.

I just had about the revolutions in the mid 1800s today, and I can from what the lecturer said, conclude that the professor had some things right, and some things wrong (to the extent I'm able to judge after having had about this stuff for 45minx2 ).
The 1848 revolution can, to a certain extent, be said to have indirectly been a result of free trade. This is because the 1830 revolution was coup d'etat'ed by the bourgeouise, and thus wrought dramatically towards free trade. The working classes weren't too happy about this, and it's been said that the French stability between 1830 and 1848 was a "wooden plank floor resting on a volcano". This because the workers didn't get their demands through.
So, indirectly...

But I agree that this is a little too thin to base such a theory on. But I guess he, as a professor had done his research on that stuff, being a respected scientist and all...
So I'm still open for this theory being accurate.

RSF:
Quote:
No Terje. Because the minimum wage is lower than what the average person supporting a household makes, it allows there to be room to supply a surplus of jobs for teenagers, because companies will pay teenagers the low minimum wage there is now. If you were to raise the minimum wage, companies wouldn't hire teenagers anymore, because they wouldn't want to pay them that much money, thus you would be taking a lot of spending power out of the market, because teenagers wouldn't be making money anymore.

This is just a matter of perspective. I could argue that this is all because the companies fail to plan forward; prefering short run profit over long run gains. But this isn't my strong point, so I think I'll leave it at this...

Quote:
Umm.. as for the Great Depression reference. They lowered minimum wage down to the bone. An old saying says basically that no wage is too low during a depression. So if you make sure everyone has a little money, then the economy will be better off. Raising the minimum wage does the opposite. It forces companies to lay off employees and choose who they deem as the better employees. This effectively takes money out of the hands of one person and puts it into someone who already has money.

Ah, thanks for clearing this up for me. What I technically meant to say, was that he realized that to get his country on its feet again, they'd need to get the spending power of the lower/middle classes up again (at least, this is the way I've understood it). So, he arranged all those large public projects to raise the spending power of the people.
Now, when I see this in retrospect, it might not have been the best argument. But if we transfer this to this discussion, we could in a way say that as FDR created jobs to increase the spending power, we could raise minimum wages. The situations aren't too similar, of course, but there are at least some similarities.

Quote:
The first job I ever had. I started out .25 cents above minimum wage. After I had the job for a while got a 50 cent raise, and then they raised minimum wage .75 cents and now I was making minimum wage. I certainly don't think that's fair that other people get a raise for doing nothing.

They hardly did nothing, did they? At least some of the people who benefitted from that minimum wage raise must have been hard working people too?

Just a minor point: To fight inflation when raising minimum wages, wouldn't it be possible to lower the wages of the people further up in the system? Surly, no person needs to make $10 million a year?

Oh well. I think I will leave this thread alone in the futrue; it has reminded me how much I hate economics...
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Svarog
Svarog


Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
posted February 09, 2005 02:54 AM

Quote:
Umm.. as for the Great Depression reference. They lowered minimum wage down to the bone.

Not really. As far as I’m familiar, Roosevelt actually implemented minimum wage on a federal level for the first time, thus giving a cash influx to the consumerist economy, which increased the demand (exactly what was needed) and saved the US (along with the other measures).
Quote:
Small businesses cannot afford to pay employees this much and will have to lay off half their employees. Now you have half as many people with money. This means you have half as many people buying things. You might say that they will buy twice as much. Nope, people usually tend to save up their money and horde it away for things like college etc...

First, you ignore the possibility that the companies don’t have to lay off their employees, but need just to respond to the increased demand with increased production, meaning increased profit to pay the employees and even invest more. Second, you are suggesting that the companies should pay their employees only the necessary minimum for survival (and prevent saving). Third, you discourage saving money for college and stimulating an educated workforce. Forth, you forget that if they cut the workforce in half, they have halved production also, meaning they have halved profit, meaning they cant pay their reduced workforce, which leads them to reduce it again (until infinity). Fifth (and most important): imagine that the minimum wage is lower than it is now. There are currently immigrants and unemployed in America that would take up such a low-paid job. Would you then advocate an increase of minimum wage, or do you support lowering minimum wage to the bare minimum until there’s no one willing to work for even less and all workplaces are full?
Quote:
But I agree that this is a little too thin to base such a theory on. But I guess he, as a professor had done his research on that stuff, being a respected scientist and all...
So I'm still open for this theory being accurate.

I think his theory may be true but it is standing upside down. I’ve always associated nationalism with the bourgeoisie’s interests. Economic liberalism being one of them, could be one of the goals of the revolutions, but certainly not a reason. On the other hand, the socialist movement took part because they were revolted from the capitalist exploitation taking place. However, they didn’t form the ideological ground behind the revolutions, and were only (ab)used as force in numbers. Both ways, its simply not true that liberalism was the dominant system then, and consequently provoked the revolution, when it actually became more dominant later and to a degree thanks to the revolution.
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AzureMajesty
AzureMajesty


Promising
Adventuring Hero
Gaea Mother Earth
posted February 09, 2005 04:38 AM

National Average US Minimum Wage Since 1938
     
$US    Date Effective  
.25    1938 October    
.30    1939 October
.40    1945 October
.75    1950 January
1.00    1956 March
1.15    1961 September
1.25    1963 September
1.40    1967 February
1.60    1968 February
2.00    1974 May
2.10    1975 January
2.30    1976 January
2.65    1978 January
2.90    1979 January
3.10    1980 January
3.35    1981 January
3.80    1990 April
4.25    1991 April
4.75    1996 October
5.15    1997 September

Multiplying the minimum wage by a work year of 50, 40-hour weeks gives the annual earnings that can be expected from a minimum wage job. Minimum wages have never been sufficient to raise a family out of poverty, if only one member of the family works.


These are cold, hard facts. It's not just teenagers working for minimum wage. Many adults, even those with college educations are making only minimum wages as employers are wanting more for their $$ then they are wanting to pay.

Ever notice how the cost of living goes up and the quality goes down? The rich want too continue getting richer, while the poor get poorer. Slave labor at slave wages.

In the 20 years prior to the 1997 minimum wage increase, which was the last increase that the US had, the cost of living greatly increased more than 200% while the minimum labor wage didn't even increase that much. I don't know of any one person that can actually live on $10,712 US dollars a year (high school students not incuded as they aren't living on this wage as a general rule), let alone a family with only 1 member working.

Sorry for the long post but this has been something I've seen for some time and just had to post some facts and figures for those that feel that there is no need for a increase in the wages.
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tewilligar
tewilligar


Famous Hero
Just another willigar
posted February 09, 2005 06:19 AM

people who earn minimum wage usually brought it upon themselves.  think about it
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terje_the_ma...
terje_the_mad_wizard


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
posted February 09, 2005 08:19 PM

And would you like to explain this statement? How, exactly, is it you think they brought it on themselves?

This kind of applying a twisted form of quasi-Darwinism to social and economic behaviour is not only futile, but also ignorant. If it can be based on even such semi-scientific things; I seem to remember reading an article (oh no! Not again! ) about this way of looking on human behaviour/faith being a remnant of the ideology of 17th century English upper class puritans or some such, and these people made these kinds of statements out of sheer ignorance.

And a last note to Svarog:
Well, the period betwen the revolution of 1830 (the "Bourgoisie Revolution") and the one of 1848 is said to be the golen age of the French Bourgeoisie... They even had a Bourgoisie king, and removed lots of protectionist laws and stuff. In fact, on of the most important demands from the 1848 revolution, was that of the right to work, and the right to a payment they could live on...
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.

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tewilligar
tewilligar


Famous Hero
Just another willigar
posted February 10, 2005 04:36 AM

ignorant?  please lol.

wake up.  are you trying to tell me there is no such thing as survival of the fittest in our society?   which rock are you buried under?



my proof?  the real world...maybe you should take a look sometime
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Svarog
Svarog


Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
posted February 10, 2005 04:47 AM

Hey, I've got an idea. It involves ur mom. How about we kill her when she turns 70? I mean, it's nature, u know, unfit should be eaten by the predators and stuff.
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tewilligar
tewilligar


Famous Hero
Just another willigar
posted February 12, 2005 05:15 AM

  go for it....you wont get past me you piece of crap
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Aculias
Aculias


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
posted February 12, 2005 06:25 AM

Just show him your Tweili
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terje_the_ma...
terje_the_mad_wizard


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
posted February 12, 2005 07:57 PM

Quote:
  go for it....you wont get past me you piece of crap

So, technically, what you're saying is that the word of the strongest is law, and that what the strongest dictates is always right?

Well, excuse me for opposing such a point of view, man...
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.

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tewilligar
tewilligar


Famous Hero
Just another willigar
posted February 13, 2005 03:21 AM

no,not always right...but is everything you see in real life right?  tell me when the last time you looked out the window and saw a perfect world.

i guess my point here is,if you want to make more than minimum wage,apply yourself instead of sitting in front of your comp whining about how little you make.  there is a world out there that is waiting for you to conquer it,and the only person stopping you from doing it is who you see in the mirror.


i didnt think i had to elaborate on this,but i was mistaken....my appologies
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Consis
Consis


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
posted February 13, 2005 03:43 AM

Tewilligar,

I am confused. Who is sitting here, at their computer, whining about how little they make?
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terje_the_ma...
terje_the_mad_wizard


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
posted February 13, 2005 03:15 PM

Quote:
no,not always right...but is everything you see in real life right?  tell me when the last time you looked out the window and saw a perfect world.

i guess my point here is,if you want to make more than minimum wage,apply yourself instead of sitting in front of your comp whining about how little you make.  there is a world out there that is waiting for you to conquer it,and the only person stopping you from doing it is who you see in the mirror.


i didnt think i had to elaborate on this,but i was mistaken....my appologies

Errm, I haven't been whining at all, have I? In fact, I don't make any money at all, but don't really care, since I'm just a student yet. And I'm not likely to get paid minimum wages once I finish my education, I think...

Anyway, I though my phrasing in my earlier post was a little awkward, so I have rephrased it:

You seem to be looking at society ("the real world" as you call it), see how the system operates, and say: "This is how it works; this is what's right."

I, on the other hand, look at society, see how the system operates, noticing all the flaws, injustices and cruelty, and I say: "This is how it works today, but it cannot be right! Can it be organized in another was, to increase the living conditions of the people?"

That, good Twiligar, seems to be the difference between the two of us. Sorry if I've misjudged you or something, but this is how I read your post...
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.

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tewilligar
tewilligar


Famous Hero
Just another willigar
posted February 20, 2005 04:04 AM

again trejjrerr, thats not what i'm saying.   but take it however you will, like i care.

consis,i'm the last one to whine as i'm on pace to make a comfortable 6 figures this year( on a shaky high school education).

i guess my point is,the world isnt going to change for us...we have to adapt for it. this might not be right,but its the way it is.
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Aculias
Aculias


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
posted February 20, 2005 05:03 AM

Seems it dont matter how good of a person you are.
I see both points but yea, you want to make somethang happen, you have to go up & do it, it wont just come to you.
I also think Tew that you make it sound so simple.
Called rejection & it seems the worst a person you are & the money you already have, the better chance you have to getting somethang better.

You have to have as many weapons as you can in this workd & take advantage of whatever you can because, this worlds too hard so if you get an oppurtunity, take it.

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tewilligar
tewilligar


Famous Hero
Just another willigar
posted February 20, 2005 06:06 AM

maybe i do make it sound simple...but does it also have to be so complicated?   if we all just put our best foot forward everyday,our chances of a favourable outcome increase.


kind of like homm....you want to take it to the game?  or let the game take you?   you are the only one who can decide!
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terje_the_ma...
terje_the_mad_wizard


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
posted February 21, 2005 12:11 AM

Quote:
again trejjrerr, thats not what i'm saying.   but take it however you will, like i care.

Ah, sorry about that. I don't like putting words into other people's mouths, but you know, sometimes it's just inevitable.
Quote:
i guess my point is,the world isnt going to change for us...we have to adapt for it.

Like I said, I believe it's possible to change the world (no, not have it change for you, but change it yourself). Sure, our ability to adapt is probably what has made the human race so successful in nature, but human society ain't nature; human society is a  cultural product.
And cultural products can be changed, imo. It may be hard, but, again imo, it will most likely be worth it.
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.

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Halanna
Halanna


Hired Hero
posted March 09, 2005 03:57 PM

I'm not sure how you make the division between human adaptibility being nature and human society being a cultural product and seperate from adaptation.  People who live in different countries develop different cultures.  With global communication booming, elements of different cultures are spreading.  Culture can be taught and learned.  It is only our ability to adapt that can change society, thereby changing culture. Society is a direct result of human beings being able to adapt to their surroundings.  It is because we have adapted to our surroundings that we need "society".  Not the other way around. I don't see them as being separate.
Just my 2 cents.
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