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| Thread: Red and Yellow Star Guide |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · «PREV |
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted March 09, 2006 10:33 PM |
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I replied to LegendMaker on HCM about this, and thought I'd copy my response here so people know that Moderator Pan is paying attention 
Quote:
I generally opt away with "what Val can do" solutions in preference of what "we can do ourselves" solutions. What I mean by this, is that generally when there is a problem in any situation people find it easiest to figure a fix that someone else can do for them (Val can change the system) and generally these ideas are quite possible however I believe that to make anything worth doing truly work, we have to care enough about it to fix it ourselves (We can help to make the system work)
So that's basically it. I don't think its a bad idea really. I do prefer the idea of losing Red Stars myself - but i think that would just be a matter of idividual preference as opposed to which setup is actually "better"
I do appreciate that you're throwing ideas in to try to improve things though 
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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LegendMaker
Promising
Famous Hero
The Metal Specialist
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posted March 10, 2006 12:33 AM |
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Let's Agree To Disagree ?
Hi Val, hi Pan, hi all.
First off thank you both for paying attention to my efforts trying to help this community. 
Now, a few points I think I either didn't make clear enough in my original proposal or simply don't see the way you do (in which case, let's refer to the title of this here post and move on, folks.) 
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people like accumulating stars, whatever the stars represent. Introduction of black stars will result in people who try to accumulate them within allowable range and display them proudly in their profile.
That by all means is already true for -QPs with the current system, Val. I could quote quite a few (mostly newer) members of HC who actually seems to have some kind of pride in accumulating penalties. Such people / behaviour existed, exist and WILL always exist in any human-based system / society / forum. Depending on the context and pov, they might be seen as sometimes "Rebels", other times "Dissidents" or even just "Bad Guys" (do the initials G.W.B. ring any bell ? [evil witty grin])...
Put in a more practical way, they are simply people having trouble with the system (for various and yet often similar reasons over the ages).
If such people didn't (or hardly) exist, no "penalty system" at all would ever be needed, now, would it ?
This might be an Internet forum and hence deemed as "virtual reality" by some, but the people who join here are no less REAL people. With ALL that implies. It's some particular prism reflection of the reality, yet it reflects reality all the same.
There are many different kind of people with various range of values, qualities, flaws, capabilities and ways of living. In HC as in reality (and that will only keep amplifying with the "rise of the new members" we're currently experiencing here).
If you adopt the Black Stars in your penalty system, and even IF some foolish dissidents actually go on a Black Stars CONTEST in their own way... What would happen any worse than with the current system in a similar situation ?
Not a thing (imho).
Say Member xxxx likes Black Stars to the point that he will take the risk of being banned to get as many of them as possible in his profile... So what ? You'll BAN him ! Simple as that. JUST like it would be the case if someone hunted down -QPs right now (and I seriously suspect some actually might be). Quote:
Black stars system labels people for life and invites future discrimination.
And if people ASK for them, how could it be "discrimination" that they get them ? 
Furthermore, did I EVER suggest that those Black Stars would stick forever to the penalized members ? I hope I didn't, because I never meant that. Of course there would be a system of say, after that many posts / time passed without causing any more trouble, people would get the chance to have one of their Black Star erased (and so on). I never suggested them as the Black version of the "original" (not yours, if you see where I'm coming from) Yellow Stars ! 
Just a penalty system that would be clear, fair and (most importantly) clearly SEPARATED from the "talent-o-meter" or even worse "value-o-meter" that Red Stars represent here. Quote:
the current system allows people to make up for, and to "erase" their penalties through earning quality points. It allows penalties to be forgotten and allows people to grow and change.
If you honestly see it that way (like 100% that way ONLY), then again, please refer to the title of this post.
Because there is no possible way I would ever agree that, Val. It is, in my most honest opinion, the main flaw of the current system : being WAY too far removed from the practical way in which things happen in people's lives. And relating to over-optimistic (at least in my eyes) idealist philosophy instead.
"Survival of the fittest", that seems to me.
Val, people DON'T come to your forum to "grow and change". They live their own life, for that ! 
People come to your forum to meet and enhoy some friendly or interesting discussions with fellow fans of a video game called Heroes of Might & Magic. Nothing less, nothing more.
IF they DO get to grow and change by coming here, that's fantastic. But if it does happen it's because of who they are and who they meet here. Certainly not because of the penalty system !
Maybe I'm too much versed in philosophy myself (in my own way)... But to me it actually makes the greatest of difference wether I'm considered as the AVERAGE of the best and the worst there is in me or like I REALLY am.
What's the exact value of a reward that can be taken away just because you said " **** " ?
In my eyes ? There is none. In my eyes, if just because I'm not well-mannered enough and/or not close enough to what you consider well-mannered (even once, and in one moment of weakness / anger) that would be enough in you(r system)'s eyes to take back the compliments you've previously made about what I truly am... Then the compliment was an illusion in the first place ! 
With the system adjustement I suggest, the two things would be clearly separated. Hence, they would (at LAST) BOTH MAKE SENSE !
Because, the way I see it, you CAN'T merge the two. IT's not even a question of wether it should or should not be taken into account.
1) You see things from Perfection downwards. I see the other way round. What is described in your Code Of Conduct as the way people SHOULD IDEALY always behave is just that, Val : It's an ideal. A great ideal, I'll give you that. And I DO understand and can relate to trying to TEND towards that ideal. THAT is healthy.
But if you actually confuse the ideal and what you should actually expect for real... I say no thanks.
2) One can be brilliant and admirable in many respects and yet NOT fit your Code Of Conduct's standards.
Reversly :
One can fit your Code Of Conduct in its tiniest details and still be nothing particular in any respect (expect respect for the CoC, that is).
How can it be fair that the bonuses are **** HARD to earn and the penalties can be given practically automatically, like a MECHANICAL PROCESS like you've previously stated yourself !
If there was more balance in the distribution of +QPs and -QPs, I guess I could still adapt to that system.
Meaning, if you don't want to adopt a separate count for these O-so-easily given penalties ; if you STILL think it makes sense and IS FAIR that they should match those O-so-HARDLY earned awards...
If you really want to achieve that, Val, in all due respect, there are only TWO ways to go (with your current MERGED HC values system) :
* Give them penalties MUCH less easily.
OR
* Give them awards MUCH more easily.
THAT would at least make sense and represent some kind of balance. Otherwise no, sorry. At least I would have tried. I did the BEST I could, believe it or not, to see it your way. But I just honestly can't.
It doesn't make sense. It's by no means fair nor balanced. It mixes two completely different aspects of one's personality (the best and the worst), PRETENDING that represents the AVERAGE of said personality. And I would never agree with it.
Now it's your forum. I'm a mere member, here. So, that will be it. Case closed. Thank you for your time. Keep the system as you see fit. I won't interfere any more.
Just please do acknowledge that I, LegendMaker, mere member here, DON'T AGREE.
Because, even if I'm not too sure you would understand why, it DOES make a hughe difference for me that you know it.
Let's agree to disagree.
I'll still be around as long as I'm welcomed.
Legend.
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LM   
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted March 10, 2006 01:02 AM |
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I'm a little bit confused by your post...my impression here is that you are of the mind that we penalize frequently and without warning? Am I correct there, or?
I personally haven't given a penalty in ages. And I certainly have never given one to a first time censor slipper.
Moderators will issue warnings when language censor has been missed, we all know that mistakes can be made. Penalties will follow when these warnings are ignored and the swearing continues.
I understand that this isn't really the point of what you're trying to say, but if it is how you think we moderate I felt I had to try to clear that misconception.
As for the rest of your post, I think its well thought out but will take my option to agree to disagree
You're certainly welcomed!
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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LegendMaker
Promising
Famous Hero
The Metal Specialist
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posted March 10, 2006 01:43 AM |
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Quote:
I understand that this isn't really the point of what you're trying to say, but if it is how you think we moderate I felt I had to try to clear that misconception.
No, Pan, it's not my point. I don't have a temporary problem or grudge against anyone in particular here, let alone the way they do their jobs. I have a problem with the SYSTEM itself.
Conan apparently felt bad enough about what he was forced to do on that fateful day to the point that he felt he had to make it real clear that he did it under his "mod's hat". Quote:
[modhat]Russ,
I've given you a warning in the Other Side about foul language. After a warning, I must apply a penalty.
I'm sorry it had to come to this.[/modhat]
I wasn't a member of HC when it happened. I would have been SHOCKED otherwise by the sheer inhumanity of this system ! I actually was when I heard about it, even if there was nothing I could do. It's not even the fact that the "-QP" are "deserved" or not, for me.
The "+QP = what makes you special / unique / particular" MATCHES "-QP = ANY possibly noticeable aspect of your NOT being a politically correct machine" SYSTEM itself I despise.
So, you see, it's been QUITE a long time what I posted in this here thread and other recent Tribunal threads wasn't AT ALL about the "Tigris incident". It's my GENERAL feelings about this system.
That's been my opinion for quite some time already. WAY before the recent flame wars. I'm not angry at anyone for it. It's NOT something I state to "get my buddy Tig his QPs back". I don't care about QPs at all in THIS system where they are considered as counterparts of any dispute / brawl you could happen to have with a fellow member while Val and/or a mod happened to have been there reading it as it was going.
It is my well thought out opinion and analyse of the system itself.
You don't have to actually give me a warning to get me concerned about the very POSSIBILITY of my Rewards being taken away IF and BECAUSE I lose my temper just once. That is a SCARY vision for me in itself. EVEN though I'm waaaay too smart to EVER actually break the CoC. Some others aren't. And they get disproportionned penalties. Just like Tigris recently or Russ on "that" fateful day.
Quote:
As for the rest of your post, I think its well thought out but will take my option to agree to disagree
With all due respects, and no matter how much it can feel good to actually read a compliment, here, lately (adressed to ME, to boot ! hehehe Must be my lucky night)... I doubt you still had an option at the moment you were writing this post.
From "new users" (political correctness applied to its outter limits here ) to vets to mods to Val himself, it all seems more than clear that this place is "Val's home, period". No matter how many people may LIVE and / or WORK here, Val OWNS the House.
And Val don't like my suggestion. So it will never happened. So again Case Closed, please.
Quote:
You're certainly welcomed!
Always good to hear ! Ty, Pan.
Now, I'll forget about the Turban Tribunal, if you don't mind me to.
Legendarily Over.
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LM
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Guitarguy
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Rockoon.
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posted March 10, 2006 05:40 AM |
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Quote:
I wasn't a member of HC when it happened. I would have been SHOCKED otherwise by the sheer inhumanity of this system ! I actually was when I heard about it, even if there was nothing I could do. It's not even the fact that the "-QP" are "deserved" or not, for me.
Isn't "sheer inhumanity" a rather strong phrase to use for this incident? When I think in those terms, I can imagine the admin or mods banning members the instant they post their first uncensored bad word. Bam, done. It's not like that, fortunately, so you have to admit that life could be a lot worse in an alternate reality.
-Guitarguy
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted March 10, 2006 07:41 PM |
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The whole [modhat] blahblah [/modhat] is something we do to identify that we're speaking as mods... I've been doing it forever, and never because I was mortified at the thought that I might be posting something somehow against my will and wanted all to know that this was the case.
To give an example - if someone is making silly flirty comments at me and I feel that they are starting to cross the line, I'll tell them to watch it. Now in just saying that it's simply me as a member asking someone to back off - however if they were to do so in a way that violates CoC i would use the [modhat on/off] to show that member that I was now speaking to them as a moderator of this forum.
In reading your post I believe that you have made up your mind as to how things are, and nothing I could say might change that and I am fine with your thinking to just let that be all.
I am only posting now to clarify that Conan's use of [modhat] was not at all what you were trying to portray it as. In the future you might want to ask someone how they meant what they said before posting something like that. It was quite an unfair misrepresentation.
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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LegendMaker
Promising
Famous Hero
The Metal Specialist
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posted March 10, 2006 09:30 PM |
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[member's hat]Point Taken[/member's hat]
Quote:
Conan apparently felt bad enough...
I did say "apparently". I was totally unaware of the whole "[mod's hat on/off]" thing being a common practice (simply because I only saw that once here yet).
So it WASN'T an "unfair misrepresentation". I just lacked some information that I now have (thanks to you, Pan).
You seemed to suggest that I did that mistake on purpose, which would imply that I'm more interested in making things up so that what I say LOOKS right than actually searching for the truth.
When / If you get to know me better, Pan, you will NO DOUBT laugh at this "unfair misinterpretation" of who I am and how much I care for the truth, in retrospect.
As far as I know, Angelito for one never use that practice. Never saw it in the Library. And this is by far both the best part of this forum (in my eyes) and the one I do contribute to the most (usually).
Hence the confusion I made about that particular "mod's hat" point.
Legendary Mea culpa.
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LM
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FriendOfGunnar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
able to speed up time
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posted March 11, 2006 07:01 PM |
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I have an idea. Instead of handing out penalties, you ban letters. For example when the first penalty is applied the poster can no longer use the letters Z, J, and X, and Q. The next penalty bans the use of Y, V, D, and W. And so on and so forth until all that can be used are smileys and the letter K. And after that... it's all over.
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LegendMaker
Promising
Famous Hero
The Metal Specialist
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posted March 11, 2006 09:09 PM |
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Quote:
I have an idea. Instead of handing out penalties, you ban letters. For example when the first penalty is applied the poster can no longer use the letters Z, J, and X, and Q. The next penalty bans the use of Y, V, D, and W. And so on and so forth until all that can be used are smileys and the letter K. And after that... it's all over.
Hey that's actually a pretty good idea... It would sure make people change and grow (at least their way of talking) to be forced to use only vowels.
Besides, if you ban the "S", you ban the "H", you ban the "I" AND you ban the "T"... No **** could possibly ever happen again, now, could it ?
That said...
We will still take our option to not follow your advice. Mainly because, you see... it is YOUR advice. So, kinda, you know, well... How could I put it ? Well the thing IS... It's not OURS !
You'll still be welcomed as long as you do strictly as you're told, though !
Rejoice !
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LM
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted March 11, 2006 11:33 PM |
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Offtopic conversation and jokes are best suited to other forums. Thanks.
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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