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| Thread: Chinese Rapid Ecomony? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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this_other_guy
Famous Hero
{0_o} heh...
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posted August 23, 2006 05:51 PM |
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by whom? if the so-called massacre were true, who can ¡±found¡± that? reporters must be restrained or killed. anyone who saw it must be put to death.
the fact is that the riotous mutineers slew many soldiers who were demanded not to hurt any people. in the year i was in school. many persons around me who were back from beijing know it. i saw the tv reports every day about it.
Don't push your luck. The 'facts' which you have stated lacks credibility as they are derived from a secondary source that of which promotes the interests of the Communist party that controls it. Have you seen the news footage show by the Chinese media covering the massacre back in 1989? It was almost entirely focused upon the images of a few dead soldiers hung from a bridge and yet it failed to mention the army opening fire upon the masses of demonstators with fragmentation rounds. Such is an example of the utility of the media in order to sway the masses to the interests of the government.
I personally know one woman lost her son who was shot while fleeing the streets and another man whose legs were crushed by a tank. Believe me when I say that their eye witness accounts completely differ from what you have heard in the news while you're in school.
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yubq
Hired Hero
rosesmasher
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posted August 24, 2006 03:58 PM |
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Edited by yubq at 16:26, 24 Aug 2006.
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I think he said he thinks you are over zealous
possible likelihood in half probability.
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you can be programmed and then sent unquestioning to do their bidding. I grew up around people like you, and I know you better than you know yourself.
dixit. don¡¯t push your luck ,too.
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History teaches us that no system of government is perfect. Improvements must constantly be made. We should all try and seek to improve upon what we have.
bonus! you hit the needle, man!
Chinese government has never claim itself perfect in int¡¯l community. and i am not satisfied with all their ¡°turnout¡±. Corruption, money-burning projects, expanding disparities between families and regions, etc, too many things make me discontented with them. whereas the authority has already been aware of importance of reforms and fights against corruption. ho¡¯ver, Rome was built in one day, namely one can¡¯t become fat overnight. China needs time to resolve them. and it is unimaginably knotty, with a population of over 1.2 billion living in more than 30 provinces, mostly junior educated, to executive reformation in such a great country.
nevertheless, China has gained great achievement within 28years that is a miracle comparing with what other capitalism nations have reached in hundreds of years.
China is reforming and studying. its a completely new road, a quite long distance ahead.
I think i arrive at conclusions grounded on my own observations. and the communist has been demonized by the western in a half century. people on capitalism tract cannot see the straight goods of the socialism.
don not know whether you discussed orally or in some threads.
i¡¯m not lack of questioning spirits. but i think too much questioning will lead to nothing. Things will turn around after going too far. you should question what you think BE the fact. nobody could survive if the ¡°massacre¡± be real.
if his headdress scarf touched off, a Muslim is surely outraged with the offender. and i note today that Consis and another one were angry when a poster asked about the fall of Roman empire. it is belief. i think there are father figures you must not insult, Chairman Mao, Premier Zhou ( i dislike Chow), Comrade Deng Xiaoping, 10 founding marshals, Comrade jiang, President Hu. this is my opinion. Chairman Mao is our belief.
don not transform criticsm into insult.
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Ecoris
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted August 26, 2006 08:37 PM |
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Edited by Ecoris at 20:39, 26 Aug 2006.
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nice to be called communist slave. thats my honor to be one.
That remark scares me...
Unfortunately it confirmed what I had suspected. I feel we need another Chinese member (living in China) in this discussion.
Have you got two eyes, yubq?
You look upon all Western countries and their foreign policies as one. Are you aware of that?
And you believe that you're always right. But remember that when two persons disagree one of them has to be mistaken and it may just as well be you.
Your view upon the West reminds me of that of the muslim islamists. I no longer think that this debate will become fruitful because you don't listen. You'll call any claim we make about China or its people a lie or at least remind us that you know better after all. And you will ignore any criticism of China and instead start listing the errors of our own countries doings.
A friend of mine studies Chinese and he'll do it in China the next half year. I shall remember to ask him about China when he comes back.
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yubq
Hired Hero
rosesmasher
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posted August 29, 2006 06:28 PM |
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there is much to be criticized in China, but not the previous ones.
some are just misinformed. it is fact that most western states and media are hostile to China and socialism. it is also widespreaded that they invested billions of dollar to disunite the Soviet.
i must point out that most infromation incited is from western paper or web,not Communist's press
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Iris
Responsible
Supreme Hero
of Typos
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posted August 29, 2006 10:54 PM |
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yubq, if you're an ecomomics major, then you might have heard of an economist by the name of Mao Yushi. A number of his books were banned because his thoughts are not in line with those of the communist party. Do you consider that free press?
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Ecoris
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted August 30, 2006 11:08 AM |
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it is fact that most western states and media are hostile to China and socialism.
"Hostile" is a strong word. Perhaps "skeptical" or "critical".
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i must point out that most infromation incited is from western paper or web,not Communist's press
Communist's press?! So you admit that it's controlled by the government?
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there is much to be criticized in China, but not the previous ones.
Why don't you tell us about it then, yubq? We're eager to hear about it.
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drakemaster2
Adventuring Hero
known as goshimasta
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posted September 02, 2006 11:01 AM |
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ho boy, it's been a long time of absence,
but I didnt there would be lots of replies...
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drakemaster2
Adventuring Hero
known as goshimasta
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posted September 02, 2006 11:02 AM |
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ho boy, it's been a long time of absence,
but I didnt there would be lots of replies...
oops typo... know between there and would
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drakemaster2
Adventuring Hero
known as goshimasta
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posted September 02, 2006 11:28 AM |
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you say that communism is wrong ? if so, it suggests that you cannot form an objective view based on yourself. what¡¯s your source and how do you shape your point. where criterion ? u ever lived in communism? most countries will back Putin's comment on iraq democracy except "democratic nations".i support his stand on it...
Calm down man, you've got to admit that the theory of Communism is good, but the practice could result to negative effects(risks). Look at N. Korea. (4 those who want 2 know what I am.. by swearing to god I'm an American Citizen, whose parents are Korean). You call this a society? I don't think so. Though I hadn't lived in NK, NK's society and life is sort of like a trapped prison(due to dictation and communism). And since its economy is so poor, they are now requestiong supply aid.
However I do believe that communism that is "modified" to a better economic structure can provide lots of postive effect to people and the economy like China, I suppose. I think the reason of China has a great potential of rapid economy is that the government has great control towards the people of China. NK should follow like this, however they're not. Not even following U.S.'s Captialism. Not even trying to recieve any examples of advanced countries.
But like the book "ANimal Farm by G. Orwell" communism has many risks and side effects. This book shows that G. Orwell criticized communism.
I'm not a person who is a economic or politics major, and certainly I'm just stating my opinion. I'm sure there could be errors due to my lack of knowledge upon economics and politics
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yubq
Hired Hero
rosesmasher
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posted September 13, 2006 05:21 PM |
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Edited by yubq at 17:52, 13 Sep 2006.
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It¡¯s disappointing to find no progress with my English. I still can not comprehend some sentences. I have no idea who mao yushi is, while you can baidu him¡£ the result tells otherwise
I learn that questioning spirit is advanced thinking .but too much question will lead to zero. So I think China should introduce moderate questioning education, finitely.
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So you admit that it's controlled by the government?
it is not a secret. The press is owed by the state. It¡¯s needless to admit or deny something. We all own that both planned economy and market economy have defects. Neither socialism nor capitalism is perfect. Therefore, you cannot judge it wrong or right only by attributing it state-owed or privately owned. We must observe what it has done and is doing. we must know for sure whether there are still 400 Anderson CooperS hiding inside news arena with their probable episodes as CIA spies. Hey, take the advantage of questioning spirit to doubt it! ¡°At least 10 local journalists accepted U.S. government pay for programs on Radio Mart¨ª or TV Mart¨ª. El Nuevo Herald fired two of them Thursday for conflict of interest.¡±(maimiherald.com) hmmmm, legendary CNN anchorman! Pentagon sends aircrafts to donate ¡°freedom¡± to Cuba people, is that normal?
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We're eager to hear about it
,oh haliluya,thoughtprovoking.
Do not equal communism to dictation. That is politician¡¯s interpretation. It is a Whitehouse Dictionary entry, not the Oxford edition.
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You'll call any claim we make about China or its people a lie or at least remind us that you know better after all.
not that way.on the contrary,I am surprised why should you be interested in such issues as that, and why you talk about China and see China in that way.
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Ecoris
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted September 14, 2006 11:11 AM |
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I don't think you understand my question, yubq. This thread is becoming quite monotonous:
1. We critisize China
2. You tell us we don't know what we're speaking of.
3. You start mentioning the errors of the Western countries.
...
and so on.
We'll never make any progress like that. Therefore I'm asking you, yubq: Please tell us about China. What do you think of your country, your government, you freedom/lack of freedom?
This is meant as an honest request, not a provocation.
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yubq
Hired Hero
rosesmasher
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posted September 14, 2006 04:29 PM |
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Edited by yubq at 16:36, 14 Sep 2006.
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Why criticism-leaning? why always brickbat? why no praise ever? is there really nothing worthy of applause? is the press not pervert? are their daily lives flooded with censure? we can not understand it.one part might need to reflect on that.
Politically westerns are the whitehouse,the poodle and japan,not geographically occidental.
Nationalisation is a system.not a kind of behavior; and communism is a kind of thought,not a human being.hover, they often choose to confuse them intendedly.
No system or gov is consummate.China just stumbles at the place where other countries will also blunder.but none will stop her steps forward because of the rugged road.before blaming others,we shall ask ourselves how about us ourselves.cleaning our own backyards first.
As for China's shortcomings,many should be criticized.they are actually happenning here. but what you mentioned before are just not on the list.they are not true.I can not understand why you ignore the very ones and adhere to the forged ones.
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Ecoris
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted September 14, 2006 04:34 PM |
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Will you please answer my last question yubq?
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yubq
Hired Hero
rosesmasher
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posted September 14, 2006 04:59 PM |
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My answer can be abstracted out of my posts.this is:
sure,China is a developing country with many problems.she is questing on a completely brand-new road,which is neither the old socialism nor capitalism market economy,tripping and heading on.Then,she needs help and encourage,not discourage.
The government is not offensive on world stage.I won't criticize its diplomacy.but will do on its home administration.
freedom is relative.none country exists absolute freedom .
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Ecoris
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted September 14, 2006 05:05 PM |
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I won't criticize its diplomacy.but will do on its home administration.
What is bad about its home administration?
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yubq
Hired Hero
rosesmasher
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posted September 14, 2006 05:18 PM |
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Edited by yubq at 15:49, 20 Sep 2006.
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it can't be describes in one or two words.you can access some webs. http://www.chinaview.cn/, this is an official sites.i trust it firmly that what they reported is true. If a govt lies, it is terrible, the doomsday.
http://www.chinanews.cn/,this is the 2nd agency website,a nongovernmental news service.
both often denounce central and local gov.bamboo telegraph says that one provincial Secretary has a quarrel with the former agency,Xinhua, because the report exposed their breach of duty on flood coming.
i'll present more later
An appreciated RMB ,Good or Bad?
It is said Chinese CN Yuan is under foreign pressure to revalue. business leaders hold that this change will benefit their trade.is that so?
but the whitehouse's stand is mild.
Former German Federal Chancellor Helmut Schmidt,"the world would be peaceful if all nations mind diplomatically theri p's and q's as China does".
the disputing ¡°Bird-Nest¡± of Beijing 2008 Olympics main venue , the National Stadium, stand on its own feet with the supports of nest¡¯s steel skeleton unloaded successfully. I dislike this stadium, because it is a bird's nest built against much opposition. Another controversy is stirred by an ¡°egg¡±, the Grand National Theatre. The history has not witnessed so extended criticism of projects as that, nationwidely involved.
4 academicians from CSA and CEA¡ªChina engineering academy¡ª wrote Premier Wen to ¡°appeal¡± to cancel the bird¡¯s nest, stating it is extravagant and lavish with rare practicality and no safety. And the egg caused a letter by 49 academicians of two academies to the central government to reject the design. Though these two letters expressed many people¡¯s thinking, they are faint in affecting the construction. Many people are discontent with the design of occidental style, saying that is not Chinese aesthetical tradition.
Jackie Chan confessed 
In Athens world cup ,Gao answers journalists¡¯ questions in English .
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted September 20, 2006 05:24 PM |
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I Am Confused
I don't understand what you are saying about Jackie Chan. What is Jackie Chan saying?
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Roses Are Red And So Am I
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yubq
Hired Hero
rosesmasher
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posted September 21, 2006 02:53 PM |
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Edited by yubq at 16:34, 23 Sep 2006.
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Jackie Chan faces an old scar
Cheng Loong confessed to acting 31 years ago in a movie of Class 3, which is betw 18A and R according to Ontario Film Classification rated by me. At the very start a reporter was hesitating to ask him about it. But Jackie encouraged , ¡°be direct, not implicit. I fear none." Then, he replied aloud begging nothing, "at that time I could not cram myself with food, I appeared in all moving pictures to survive..." Cheng also referred to Marlon Brando. and he did not think it was a big problem. He concluded that he trusted in mainland media so that he responded to the journalist frankly. He said he knew mainland reporters would not scribble on paper, unlike Hong Kong paparazzi (dog writers) who always snap in stealth and spread gossip.
His honesty and frankness wins claps for his Big Brothership (respectable leadership) in China entertainment arena.
[url]http://www.archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=5208[/url]a European site where you can discuss something with other Chinese located in Ireland or China.
[url]http://wakeofgods.com[/url]welcome to China Wog forum,in English and Chinese,to share our common faith on HOMM and fight for jusitice.Let us unite together,world heroes(heroines).
 Sanya WSM 2006
 Phil Pfister wins the 2006 MET-Rx World's Strongest Man
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friendofgunnar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
able to speed up time
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posted September 23, 2006 09:52 PM |
bonus applied. |
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I found all these in a bookstore about 2 blocks from my house.
There aren't really any books that are banned by the U.S. government except for books that have child pornography in them and books that encourage violence against the government.
Books that insult religion or christianity are not banned in America. I'll give you a good example that may help you understand the way that America venerates Jesus Christ yet still embraces free speech.
Several years ago someone took a figure of Jesus Christ on a cross (this is the holy emblem of most Christians btw and especially Catholics) and put it in a large jar of urine. They called it “Piss Christ”.
This caused a huge outrage amongst religious people here. The controversy however wasn't about the artist's right to publish and distribute the picture. The controversy was that a government agency named “The National Endowment for the Arts” had actually paid 8,000 dollars for it. (I’m serious, eight thousand dollars). There wasn't anybody in America that was actually saying the artist should be punished for creating the picture.
The artist made a drug-addled sounding argument that if you restrict art by deciding where public money goes then this is a restriction of freedom of speech. Nobody real bought this argument though except drug-addled artists and other liberal extremists. Anyway the artist was never punished (because his art was protected by the constitution). The government agency was punished though, it had it's budget slashed in half.
You must realize that insulting Christianity is daily business here in America. Especially in the cities. Young artists think they are being cool and “rebellious” if they insult Christianity. Christians like to feel that they are persecuted so this gives them plenty of fuel for that too. Everybody just likes to whine basically. It’s america’s pastime.
Also, unlike China, most educated adults are aware of the flaws of the creators of America. If you don’t know what they are I can give you a short list. George Washington (the first president who is featured on the 1 dollar bill) was a slave owner who really only thought democracy belonged to white male landowners…not very democratic. Thomas Jefferson (10 dollar bill) , another early president, not only owned slaves but had several children with one, (the coercive nature of their relationship implying rape). Andrew Jackson (20 dollar bill), for anybody who reads up on him, was a genocidal racist tyrant. Franklin Delano Roosevelt (10 cents coin-dime) cheated on his wife. Kennedy (50 cent coin) had diarhea constantly. Nixon was a liar, Reagan was senile… and if you watch late night television here you will see that people routinely insult George Bush’s intelligence. I mean like every day…
The point I’m driving at is there are no sacred cows here. (that’s a phrase that means someone who can’t be criticized or insulted). You can insult and offend pretty much anyone you want as long as it’s not in the workplace. That doesn’t stop people from believing in the system though.
Negative coverage of China in the Western Press
There's really only a few negative things that the western press focuses on. The first one is China's claim to Taiwan, which I'll discuss in a minute. The second is the fact that China is ripping off America's product (music, movies, and software) without paying for it. China's government makes massive efforts to censor information to it's citizens yet they don't make an effort to enforce royalty laws that are standard over the entire developed world. Somebody's lifework here in the United States can be ripped off and a profit made by someone completely unrelated. It's completely unfair and China deserves the negative press that it's been getting about that. (except if it's microsoft products, in which case I approve)
Another source of negative press are the reports from Westerners who go into China and find themselves being censored for even small petty things. Some anecdotes: when the rock band the Rolling Stones toured the government wouldn't let them sing two songs. Disney has also been having problems with the government censors ever since they first set foot in China, even over a silly pirate movie like "Pirates of the Caribbean". Perhaps the best anecdote of all is when Iris went to China and couldn't use Wikipedia and Google. Everybody who goes into China comes back with the impression that China is still using authoritarian thought control on it's citizens. The only thing that's going to stop that (the negative press) is if China starts to relax it's tight fisted grip on information.
(btw that's only a tiny speck of the censorship that goes on. If you want a broader survey the China Digital Times is keeping much better track of things.)
http://chinadigitaltimes.net/test_tag.php?id=media+censorship
There's been some positive coverage about China:
When China sent three Taikonauts around the earth it was front page news here. Most editorials had something along the lines of “welcome to the club”.
Here’s something else you probably aren’t aware of. There are a lot of americans, myself included, who are cheering for Chinese space program just for the simple reason that it will inspire the competitive spirit in America to go out and explore also. It’s an unfortunate but sad truth that many Americans aren’t really interested in exploring space unless somebody else is trying to get there first. 
Taiwan
There’s two main parties in Taiwan and they are both about the same size. The KMT is the one that you are familiar with because it had it's roots in the corrupt nationalist party that used to rule China. Things have changed a lot since then though.
During the last election the KMT built a platform on closer ties with China. The reason for this is because the ethnic identity of the KMT is the same as mainland China (Han chinese) and also because after Deng Xiaopeng's reforms the economy of mainland China and Taiwan has begun to look very similar.
The opposition party, the DPP, builds it's cultural identity on the non-Han (Polynesian) who first settled the island and the later Han who intermingled with them. They feel that Taiwan has enough cultural differences that it is a distinct country. They are the ones who are now promoting the idea of independence.
Both parties however favor freedom of speech and multi-party democracy. The president of Taiwan described the democracy as a "jewel". There is nobody in Taiwan that wants it to come under Beijing control. The main reason that that when Beijing takes control they will start banning books, blocking internet sites, and only permitting elections by candidates they approve of- just like they do on the mainland.
What this means is that if Beijing takes control of Taiwan through violent means, then it will be guilty of the same imperialism that the Chinese government likes to criticize western powers about. It will be a giant 1.3 billion sized hypocrisy.
Mao Tse-Tung and Deng Xiaoping
I had a landlord once who was Kuomintang and he had the exact same opinion that I did. That Mao was a peasant fool who’s only accomplishment was unifying China, while Deng was a pragmatic college educated leader who got China started on it’s present path to economic greatness. It baffles me why Chinese people venerate Mao Tse-Tung when China's economy went nowhere under his leadership.
America and Communism
Here’s another interesting thing you probably aren’t aware of. Here in America there’s three socialist parties. Two of them are communist (don’t ask me why there’s two, there just is). Every 4 years we go to vote for who we want to be president. On every ballot, every American has the opportunity to vote for one of these socialist candidates. Hardly anyone ever does though, one of the reasons being that it’s just not a very credible ideology to Americans.
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Ecoris
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted September 24, 2006 02:25 PM |
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Good post FoG  .
I took my time to read some of the Chinese constitution the other day (read it here). It's pretty long though.
Here are some things that I find interesting:
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Preamble
Under the leadership of the Communist Party of China and the guidance of Marxism-Leninism, Mao Zedong Thought, Deng Xiaoping Theory and the Important Thought of the "Three Represents," the Chinese people of all ethnic groups will continue to adhere to the people's democratic dictatorship and the socialist road, persevere in reform and opening to the outside world, steadily improve socialist institutions, develop the socialist market economy, develop socialist democracy, improve the socialist legal system, work hard and self-reliantly to modernize the country's industry, agriculture, national defense and science and technology step by step, and promote a coordinated development of material, political and spiritual civilizations to turn China into a socialist country that is prosperous, powerful, democratic and culturally advanced.
[...]
Chapter One
General Principles
Article 1 The People's Republic of China is a socialist state under the people's democratic dictatorship led by the working class and based on the alliance of workers and peasants.
[...]
Chapter Two
The Fundamental Rights and Duties of Citizens
Article 33 The state respects and guarantees human rights.
[...]
Article 35 Citizens of the People's Republic of China enjoy freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, of association, of procession and of demonstration.
[...]
Chapter Three
The Structure of the State
[...]
Article 62 The National People's Congress exercises the following functions and powers:
[...]
(15) To exercise such other functions and powers as the highest organ of state power should exercise.
First of all I wonder what a "democratic dictatorship" is. I can't help to look upon this term as an example of contradicto in adjecto (i.e. the adjective contradicts the noun). To me a dictatorship is a form of government where a single or a few persons are in absolute power. A democracy is a totally different form of government. But it should at least include the following:
- free and fair elections
that is, any party or person may stand up for election, and these elections have to be fair. An election is obvioulsy not fair if the government ot one of the parties control the media.
- rule of the majority
self explaining
- protection of minorities
this can take many forms. Usually it involves special laws that are meant to protect the rights of certain minority groups or guarantee them a minimum of power (e.g. the sectarian Lebanese government form). Or it may just involve laws that on certain matters prevents 51% from ruling the last 49% (e.g. the American Senate in which all 50 states have exactly two senators regardless of the state's population).
I.e. the minority could be political, ethnic ...
A democracy that does not include these three elements is not fully a democracy. It is not a matter of either or. You can have a democracy at a high or low degree.
I figure that a "democratic dictatorship" is a dictatorship with some democratic elements. In China there is only one party you can vote for, but at least you're given the right to vote, or?
It reminds of the old DDR (the German Democratic Republic: Eastern Germany). It was a single party system as well. However to appear more democratic they made referendums once in a while. But the citizens were only given the option of "yes". "No" was not an option. Not surprisingly the results were always something like "a 96% victory".
Is a single party so much different. I mean, what is your vote worth if there's basically just one option?
I also find it odd that the constituttion clearly dictates the political ideology of China: socialism. A constitution is not meant to do so.
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Article 33
The state respects and guarantees human rights.
Article 35 Citizens of the People's Republic of China enjoy freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, of association, of procession and of demonstration.
I guess I don't need to comment on those articles. But as you see the constitution gives the Chinese these rights.
Just a last note on the division of power: The National People's Congress exercises "such other functions and powers as the highest organ of state power should exercise."
I find that formulation very vague. You could interpret is as you like.
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