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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: How does the necromancy skill work exactly?
Thread: How does the necromancy skill work exactly? [ This thread is 2 pages long: (1) 2 ]
angelito
angelito

Hero of Order
proud father of a princess
posted March 29, 2004 02:32 AM bonus applied.
Edited By: Hexa on 29 Mar 2004

How does the necromancy skill work exactly?

Many times i thought about the necromancy skill and how it works exactly. When i read my "Heroes-updater-list", where there is described what was changed with which patch, there was also a point about the "reworking" of that skill coming with the 1.3 patch.
So i think since this version, that skill works fine and could be explained very easy (with one exception....but read that later...).


Some question had to be figured out:

1. Which necro skill counts? The one u have before u go into a fight, or the one which u have after the fight? Coz normaly u have ur level-up at first, then the result of the risen skellies is shown.

After some testing, itīs clear. The skill u have before u get into a fight is counted.


2. How do the necro bonuses count? Do they count cumulative or are they all based on ur necromancy skill?

Also did some testings here. They work all cumulative.
That means, if u r expert necro, have built the amplifier and have the vampireīs cowl, your necro skill is 50%.
One exception: The skill speciality "necromancy" like Isra has, is always based on the "natural" necro skill the hero has. That means, if Isra has the situation like above and is Lev 20, his necro skill does NOT raise to 100%, but up to 80% (30% expert necro, 30% speciality (20*5% of 30), 10% amplifier, 10% vampirīs cowl).


3. When i have expert necromancy (30%) and fight against a stack of 100 creatures, how come there are not exactly 30 skeletons raising after the fight?

This is the most missunderstood fact of that skill and i think that is meant with the "reworking of that skill".
The nummer of raised skeletons is NOT based on the number of the stack u r fighting but on the summary of their whole hitpoints!

Example 1

U fight against 1000 gremlins and have expert necro.
How many skellies will raise?

Complete hitpoints of the gremlins were 1000*4 = 4000
Expert necro means 30% of "hitpoints" will raise = 1200
How many skellies will u "get" for 1200 hitpoints?
Right...exactly 200.

Example 2

U fight against 30 gremlins and have basic necro.
How many skellies will raise?

Complete hitpoints of the gremlins were 30*4 = 120
Basic necro means 10% of "hitpoints" will raise = 12
How many skellies will u "get" for 12 hitpoints?
Right...exactly 2.

Example 3

U fight against 500 gremlins and have expert necro, amplifier, amulett of the undertaker, Isra Level 10.
How many skellies will raise?

Complete hitpoints of the gremlins were 500*4 = 2000
Expert necro (30%), Isra Level 10 (10*5% of 30% = 15%), amplifier (10%), amulett (5%)...that makes 60%....of 2000 hitpoints...that gives 1200 hitpoints.
How many skellies will u "get" for 1200 hitpoints?
Right...exactly 200.


So there are some points to notice:

U canīt raise more skeletons as the number of creatures u r fighting against.
And your necro skill canīt raise above 100%.
This fact is interesting when u play with a hero who has necromancy as speciality.
Take a look at this situation:
U r expert necro, have all 3 necro artifacts (amulett of the undertaker, vampirīs cowl, dead mens boots....not as combo...) and 2 towns were the amplifier is built. That will give in summary 80% necromancy skill. When your hero now is Level 20, normaly this number will raise on 110% (Level 20= 20*5% of 30 = 30%).
But that is not possible.

If u fight against 1000 gremlins with 100% necro skill, u will raise 666 skeletons (1000*4=4000, 4000/6=666).
There is nothing u can do, to raise this number of skellies after that fight. (I made Isra a level 50 hero and he raised again exactly 666 skellies).


But now i will mention the one exception i could not figure out by now.

When i did those test fights, the gremlins were split in 1 or 2 stacks (I fought with 100 titans ) and the calculations were all great..in theory and in practice.
But sometimes, the gremlins were splitted in 3 stacks and then, the calculation did not work exactly....the number of risen skeletons were smaller than calculated.

So i tried to figure out, when there appear 1 or 2 and when there were more stacks of gremlins.

I tried it with nearly every number beetween 10 and 100.
Only when they were 40 gremlins, they were parted in 3 stacks. I tried 80, 120, 160.....everytime 2 stacks....I tried 400, 4000.....everytime 2 stacks (I changed the number of my titans, i changed the spreading....always the same).
The next number i could figure out where the gremlins were split in 3 stacks was 2000 (choose some random numbers....was lucky..).


Here the test results against a neutral stack of 40 gremlins (which were splitted in 3 stacks....14,13,13):

With basic necro, only 1 skeleton raised after fight (normaly it has to be at least 2....40*4=160...10% of 160=16...this makes 2 skellies and 4 hitpoints left).

With expert necro, only 6 skeletons raised after fight
(normaly it has to be exactly 8....30% of 160 = 48....this makes exactly 8 skeletons).


Then i did the same fight against a hero with 40 gremlins:

Against 1 stack............8 skellies raised
Against 2 stacks (20,20)...8 skellies raised
Against 3 stacks (14,13,13)6 skellies raised???

I tried it with more than 3 stacks (500 gremlins in 5 stacks to 100)...works fine....exact like calculation.

Tried it with different numbers per stack (4 times 100, 1 time 101)...works fine also....

So there has to be a (for me) "unknown" factor when fighting against a stack of creatures which were splitted into 3 stacks.....perhaps anybody knows this (Xarfax?, Wub?).

Please remember, that this calculation works only since version 1.3!


Hope i helped some guys to figure out how they can raise 3000 skeletons on week 6...

Though i know, necro is banned in the zone mostly, this could be interesting stuff for some of you..

Edit by Hexa: QP applied!@

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regnus_khan
regnus_khan


Responsible
Supreme Hero
[ Peacekeeper of Equilibris ]
posted March 29, 2004 04:01 AM

Well, I actually read this once on an english page about homm. But yep, this is kinda useful for us.
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Dyrvom
Dyrvom


Adventuring Hero
posted March 29, 2004 04:16 AM

Great, now I'm tempted to run around seeing if there are ever inaccurate XP awards for killing Gremlins, innacurate Tactics boosts to Gremlins... *sigh*
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angelito
angelito

Hero of Order
proud father of a princess
posted March 29, 2004 05:42 AM

Quote:
Well, I actually read this once on an english page about homm. But yep, this is kinda useful for us.



But for sure this is NOT a copy-paste info.....this all was tested and written this night...took me more than 4 hours....

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Dingo
Dingo


Responsible
Legendary Hero
God of Dark SPAM
posted March 29, 2004 06:16 AM

Great post angelito, Qp well deserved!
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The Above Post/Thread/Idea Is CopyRighted by, The Dingo Corp.

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angelito
angelito

Hero of Order
proud father of a princess
posted March 29, 2004 06:58 AM

Thx for that Hexa  

Perhaps i can beat u now on the zone....with necro....lmao..
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doomnezeu
doomnezeu


Supreme Hero
Miaumiaumiau
posted March 29, 2004 08:32 AM

keep up the good work, angelito, nice one
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KingofMinota...
KingofMinotaurs


Known Hero
Ruling the minotaurs below
posted March 30, 2004 05:57 PM

yeah keep it up!
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Frick
Frick


Known Hero
and eternal n00b.
posted April 01, 2004 11:29 AM

Nice. I like numbers. I like %. Thanks a lot. Hmm... I must print this and put it on the wall...

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Jason
Jason

Tavern Dweller
posted April 01, 2004 03:11 PM

Cool

Very nice guide. Solved lots of misunderstandings to a lot of people i suppose!
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Frick
Frick


Known Hero
and eternal n00b.
posted April 06, 2004 11:03 AM

Especially about the %-thingy. I did not know that the skill was based on HP:s instead of creature stacks. Interesting.

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Wub
Wub


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted April 07, 2004 12:22 AM
Edited By: Wub on 6 Nov 2005

Hello Angelito,

I must say that especially your explanation of how the number of hitpoints of the defeated creatures limits the number of skeletons raised is really very accurate and clear. Good job there ! I think I can add some info about the necromancy skill too. It is based upon some tests (for a change ) and in my opinion some of these findings are very interesting (and actually useful too ).


The two limiting factors of necromancy

Quote:
This is the most missunderstood fact of that skill and i think that is meant with the "reworking of that skill".
The nummer of raised skeletons is NOT based on the number of the stack u r fighting but on the summary of their whole hitpoints!


As you extensively described, the number of hitpoints is a limiting factor of the number of skeletons that is raised. However, the number of raised skeletons is also based on the number of creatures in the killed creature stack. So there are actually two limiting factors. You probably figured this already, but I'll give an example to be complete anyway:

You kill a stack of 10 champions with a 30% necromancy skill.
The first limiting factor is the total hitpoints of the champions. This is 10 * 100 = 1000. 30%*1000=300 hitpoints available for necromancy. This would make 300/6=50 skeletons.

The second limiting factor is the number of creatures that is killed. In this case there are 10 creatures. Of 30% of these creatures skeletons can be raised. 30% * 10 = 3. So this would make 3 skeletons.

Now from this two calculations, the smallest number always determines the eventual number of raised skeletons. So when you kill 10 champions with 30% necromancy skill, you get 3 skeletons.


How number of enemy stacks influences number of raised skeletons

Your test results concerning the number of enemy stacks surprised me too, Angelito. I did not know this affects the amount of harvested skellies. But I think I can explain it now.

It appears that the computer first calculates the number of skeletons for every killed stack and then adds all these numbers for the eventual number of raised skeletons. So let's take your example where the gremlins are divided as 13-13-14 and you have 30% necromancy. Since hitpoints are the limiting factor here, 13 gremlins will make 0.3*4*13/6=2.6 skeletons, rounded off to 2. 14 gremlins will make 0.3*4*14/6=2.8 skeletons, rounded off to 2 skeletons. Therefore, total skeletons raised is 2+2+2=6. As you already calculated, if these gremlins would be in one stack of 40, number of skellies would be 0.3*4*40/6=8.

In the Run Forest....RUN! thread Odvin and I found out that there are two factors that solely determine how many creature stacks you will face on the combat map. To summarize what we found:

The more the computer is sure that it will win the battle, the more stacks it forms.

The maptile on which the battle takes place also determines the number of stacks.

For more accurate information you can follow the link of course; check the 15th post for the complete explanation.

Some other interesting findings

Most of us probably already knew that when you have all seven creature slots filled and you have skeleton warriors in your army, that you raise skeleton warriors instead of normal skeletons. You raise less skeleton warriors than normal skeletons however and I tested the exact proportion. The number of skeleton warriors is equal to 2/3 of the number of normal skeletons that would be raised. This is according to common knowledge, but I wanted to confirm it.

I also tested in which way the number of raised skeletons is rounded off. It appears that when number of slain creatures is the limiting factor, the number of skeletons is rounded up and when hitpoints are the limiting factor, the number of skeletons is rounded down. So, for example, an archangel will give you one skeleton (no matter your necromancy skill), but if you killed 3 goblins you can never raise more than 2 skeletons.

And finally something that surprised me. It was said that wearing life artis (ring of vitality, vial of lifeblood, ring of life) would impede skeleton harvesting, because you need more hitpoints to make skeletons. This appears to be completely untrue: there is no effect whatsoever of life artis on skeleton harvesting.
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Svarog
Svarog


Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
posted April 08, 2004 08:49 PM

Quote:
And finally something that surprised me. It was said that wearing life artis (ring of vitality, vial of lifeblood, ring of life) would impede skeleton harvesting, because you needed more hitpoints to make skeleton. This appears to be completely untrue: there is no effect whatsoever of life artis on skeleton harvesting.


But what if the opponent has these artifacts? Would the computer calculate the normal HP of say, gremlins (number of gremlins x 4), or the improved health (number of gremlins x(4+1))?
If it doesn't take the artifacts into account it wouldn't be that fair, since after all you did put more effort in dealing with those "healthier" gremlins.
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Wub
Wub


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted April 10, 2004 03:07 AM
Edited By: Wub on 9 Apr 2004

Hmmm, that's a very good question, Svarog. To me it would make sense too if you could raise more skeletons from gremlins that have an increased number of hitpoints due to health artifacts. So I tested it, but it appears that also in this case health artis do not matter: if you have 60% necromancy, you still get only 400 (instead of 600)skeletons from 1000 gremlins with 8 (4+2+1+1) hitpoints.

By the way, wearing health artifacts does appear to work when you want to raise demons with the pitlord specialty (but this is well known for quite a while already).
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Consis
Consis


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
posted April 12, 2004 03:04 AM

Excellent Work

Job well done Angelito, Wub, and SvarogYou all have scientifically explored the necromancy skill leaving no stone unturnedI applaud your efforts, all of youThis is very helpful and I thank you all once againIt's good hard work and you all did a fine job producing usable results
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angelito
angelito

Hero of Order
proud father of a princess
posted October 18, 2004 02:49 PM

I thought i bring back this topic, only for the case we will perhaps have a "Necro"-tourney on TOH or WW soon.
Could help some guys a bit i think
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GabyStan
GabyStan


Known Hero
Seeking Wisdom
posted November 06, 2005 05:04 PM

Yes, veery useful info to ALL of us. I mean not only noobs, but everyone. I say that because there seems to not be a 100% logical aproach to the game: the health arties help raising demons, but not skellies; "spells" are sometimes spells, other times abilities; some spell resistances are natural, other "unnatural" and so on. Thus, you really have to gather all info individually, not trust your logic that all things work the same in similar conditions. As Wub said it, there's always a doubt factor till every situations are tested.

I agree Sir_Stiven entirely: coming here after mastering the single play and believing you know everything about Heroes 3, you realize how much more there is to learn...

Thanks a lot for every player sharing us their knowledge and spending that much time for just a... game.

(Life's just a game, don't take it too serious... )
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bc27332
bc27332

Tavern Dweller
posted November 09, 2011 03:09 PM

nice job!
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Robb
Robb


Adventuring Hero
posted November 09, 2011 03:16 PM

Actually, you can get 95% with one town if you have the grail.
And with Isra.
With two towns, you can raise all the dead that fell(only tested in two battles).
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maretti
maretti


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted April 15, 2012 11:10 PM

How can you make a legion skeleton warriors if there are no necro towns on the map and you are not allowed to use hillforts?
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