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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Strongest Town & Weakest Town in HOMM3
Thread: Strongest Town & Weakest Town in HOMM3 This thread is 34 pages long: 1 10 ... 19 20 21 22 23 ... 30 34 · «PREV / NEXT»
Gelbrekt
Gelbrekt

Tavern Dweller
posted May 07, 2014 02:35 PM

Wait, are you saying you have not beat 7 AI opponents on Expert and Impossible?

This vampire rush strategy was enough to beat the AI on impoissible on a Large Random Map (no dungeon - 1 layer) where the 7 AI teamed up against me in 3 teams (all playing castle). I will admit i was quite lucky that time, but this strategy almost guarantees a victory against 7 AI on impossible as long as the map is Large (with dungeon) or larger.
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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted May 07, 2014 02:57 PM

I was saying my experience on expert and impossible was limited to playing against the AI..

Not really sure how relevant those experiences are, it's only to point out the stuff I write about is assumed to be on hard difficulty. Frankly I don't remember.
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Gelbrekt
Gelbrekt

Tavern Dweller
posted May 08, 2014 10:17 AM

Alright, hard difficulty and lower might somehow be balanced because of the opportunities given by the extra starting resources. Still, i don’t see how Necropolis is balanced, because no other faction could take out things like 420 Swordsmen / 120 minotaurs / 40 Champions with nothing but a stack of level 4 units at week 5-6, at least not without suffering severe casualties. The fact that a single hero with VLs can take out so many troops alone (with 0 casualties), leaves Necropolis with a bunch of other strong creatures that can be used for even more map control. I just don’t see how this could be possible with, for example, rampart. How would they take out 40 Champions with just a single unit stack on week 5-6? They would need more than 1 stack for that, and then they would weaken either their main hero or their secondaries, which equals less map control and less resources.

The only weakness i can see with Necropolis are the Ghost dragons, since they are the worst lvl 7 unit. However, you will usually find another neutral town before getting ghost dragons, and then you can use that town’s level 7’s, while the VLs, Liches, and Black knights brings in hordes of resources (also they are decent troops when fighting the enemy hero, even if the Vampire Stack isn’t outstanding then).

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Biobob
Biobob


Famous Hero
the Bobler
posted May 08, 2014 02:18 PM

Use Archers.

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gelbrekt
gelbrekt

Tavern Dweller
posted May 08, 2014 02:32 PM

I understand that archers + Mass Slow are efficient in these situations, but I don't see how you could do it with Rampart, Inferno, Fortress and Conflux. Stronghold would also have a hard time (as the cyclops dwelling is very expensive) and Castle (because Marksmen are low level and Zealots have poor stats).

What unit combination (and roughly how many units) would you use to beat 40 Champions at week 5-6? Note that the total cost shouldn't be significantly more than 25k gold, as this is what the vampire lord costs.

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Biobob
Biobob


Famous Hero
the Bobler
posted May 08, 2014 10:58 PM
Edited by Biobob at 22:59, 08 May 2014.

Werk 5-6 is a joke, you have man units. However...

Rampart has enough elves, it can Splitter them up and surround them with Blockers or use mass slow, arrows will be sufficient.

Fortress Has dragonflies to kite slowed enemies around and shoot

Conflux can Do by upg. Sprite and slow alone, let alone luna

Stronghold can use gurnisson with rocs if you fear loss of units

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Gelbrekt
Gelbrekt

Tavern Dweller
posted May 09, 2014 12:26 AM
Edited by Gelbrekt at 00:36, 09 May 2014.

"Werk 5-6 is a joke, you have man units." I am not sure what you mean with that, but I take back everything i said after watching the entire game "OhforfSake" linked. That guy had 26 Naga queens, 27 wyverns and several giants to recruit in his town on week 3, with a level 20 hero with 30 attack skill and 10 def, which is way more than i could have ever imagined. Still, I would say Vampire Lords are broken on impossible difficulty because they are so easy to get, but i realize now that the game is more balanced than i first had thought.

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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted May 10, 2014 02:46 AM

OhforfSake said:
The Vamp. Lord is a very powerful unit, despite only being a level 4 unit, it's stronger than most level 5 units, but it has its weaknesses too. Another very powerful unit is the Power Lich, which shouldn't be underestimated either.

A neutral stack of Chaos Hydras aren't particularly difficult to defeat due to their low speed. E.g. there's a "joke" about how 1 sprite can take down legions of Hydras.



yeah, speed is most likely a factor. I doubt those 90 vampires would stand much chance against 250 archdevils. you would be dead before you can do anything.

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Biobob
Biobob


Famous Hero
the Bobler
posted May 10, 2014 06:55 AM

Depends on landscape, I Made a map where you kill 2500 Azures with 400 Vamps...
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Humanoid
Humanoid


Bad-mannered
Known Hero
Rest in Peace Juvia (48-499)
posted May 10, 2014 07:27 AM

I think the strongest town is stronghold couse the creatures chaeper and stronger then other ones. the weakist is tower couse its creature are soooo weak and so magic oriented.

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Gelbrekt
Gelbrekt

Tavern Dweller
posted May 10, 2014 10:44 AM

I suppose you are all right as long as the game is played on Hard difficulty or lower. But I still can’t see how VLs are balanced on impossible difficulty. At the end of month 1 it is possible in almost any Random Map to have 28 Vampire Lords which is almost enough to take out any neutral army stack on the map (and get things like 5 angels from conservatories, Titan's Gladius, Gold Mines, Pandora’s Boxes with 20k XP / 20k gold, etc.). I don’t think any other race could take out those army stacks on month 1, so i wonder: Do you have any game where a really good player plays anything but conflux or necropolis on a large or XL map?

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Kicferk
Kicferk


Known Hero
posted May 10, 2014 02:34 PM

Gelbrekt, it all depends on the template, and starting conditions. Necro is always pretty strong on L and XL, but I saw several games won by Maretti on Jebus L or XL against necro
Vampire lords are kind of OP, but skellies are the best. They are usually capable of getting you through much tougher fights much before vamp lords. For instance, I think it would be very hard to take a tope with 20 vamp lords you can have in week 3(with no external dwellings). But with 400 or more skellies, a tope is quite doable.
And I think you are seeing it from only one perspective. You seem to neglect the importance of a hero. If you have to kill 70 nagas week 3, you can't do it with just your vamp lords and lucky terrain - you need a hero with stats and hopefully earth magic. With such hero another fraction can be quite successful as well, because they can use all their troops in battle...
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Gelbrekt
Gelbrekt

Tavern Dweller
posted May 11, 2014 03:50 PM
Edited by Gelbrekt at 15:51, 11 May 2014.

70 naga queens on week 3 would indeed be hard on impossible difficulty just by using vampire lords, but that’s because Naga queens are very good against VLs because they got high defence skill and the no-retaliation ability. Also, a stack with 70 naga queens is very uncommon on random maps, so it is irrelevant.

I am not comparing vampire lords and necromancy, I am comparing Necropolis without necromancy (and only vampire lords) against any other faction. Of course it depends alot on the map, but in my opinion Vampire Lords are extremly strong in ~75% of the situations you encounter when playing random maps.

It would be fun to play a game with you sometime so i could prove it

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markmasters
markmasters


Famous Hero
Dragon of justice
posted May 20, 2014 11:22 PM

Gelbrekt, the question where you ask which other creatures could beat those chaos hydra's with a comparable strength army of that of 80 VL's, i can come up with some ideas:

- Luna with her fire wall and 1 sprite, can burn up her huge mana pool, flee and then return the battle....this costs 50 gold maybe

- A powerfull stack of shooters + force field/blinding enemy units to wall them around your stack

- Use a single fast flying creature to let the hydra's keep chasing you while ranged units kill it from far

- teleport a ranged creature to a spot at the battleground surrounded by natural terrain (some battlegrounds offer this)

- using clone on archdevils

So basicly, there are planty of combo's which can do the trick

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scbw1234
scbw1234


Hired Hero
posted May 23, 2014 05:08 PM
Edited by scbw1234 at 20:43, 23 May 2014.

After discovered the hydra dragon utopia tactics,i do believe fortress is the strongest in a map with alot of vaults.

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scbw1234
scbw1234


Hired Hero
posted May 23, 2014 08:55 PM

OhforfSake said:
The Vamp. Lord is a very powerful unit, despite only being a level 4 unit, it's stronger than most level 5 units, but it has its weaknesses too. Another very powerful unit is the Power Lich, which shouldn't be underestimated either.

A neutral stack of Chaos Hydras aren't particularly difficult to defeat due to their low speed. E.g. there's a "joke" about how 1 sprite can take down legions of Hydras.

Gelbrekt said:
Everyone are just like “Bone dragons and Walking dead are below average, necropolis suck?.


No, they aren't.


What about one Harpy Hag

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Kicferk
Kicferk


Known Hero
posted May 23, 2014 10:12 PM

Well, in map "Nine riddles" there is a battleground setup that allows to kill any number of champions(or basically any kind of 2-hex units, if you can move before them), provided you have a no retal creature. Harpies shine But their damage is poor to say the least

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BurntPhoenix
BurntPhoenix


Hired Hero
posted May 31, 2014 08:13 AM
Edited by BurntPhoenix at 08:33, 31 May 2014.

How I see it...

The 2 Overpowered Powers
Conflux- Beyond absurd, ban-worthy to the highest!!! As covered by the detractors already on reasons why: creature growth guaranteed to out-number and overwhelm the opposition, cheap as dirt to build up, magic and immunity advantages, etc, etc. Can't really think of true counterweight to its strengths; average heroes and average mid-level units are not enough!

Short of being surrounded by allied players with multiple towns bearing down on it, the town will win at everything because the designers rushed it. But, alas, it will not win the detractors' respect!

From an artistic standpoint, it's wonderful though. Which just makes the town more of a waste.

Necropolis- Less ridiculous than the Conflux, especially since in the early game, a lack of ranged attack, speed, and firepower expose it. But once it gets going, it's lights out.

This town would drop down to the next category, maybe, if  necromancy and the vampire lord's drain were reduced, and the dread knight's double damage chance eliminated (what a lovely blade you have, Mr. Buckethead, but why the double damage potential when its already enough that it curses and deals high damage anyway?!?)

Powerful in most any situation

Castle- the "noob" town for good reason--- balance, convenience, versatility all-around. Extremely user-friendly. Most can agree there's no weak unit here at all, whereas in all other towns, you have at least one weak unit who doesn't shine in its respective tier. Ya kick the peasants on out da door, and everybody can now contribute meaningfully to the partaay!!

Conflux and Necropolis still out-muscle it based on the numbers they can accumulate and sustain.

Situational

Every other town. Yup. That's what I believe. (Although Dungeon comes really close to joining Castle in the level of convenience its units provide).

So maybe the Inferno and Fortress require more thinking on what to do and there's less convenience involved, but that doesn't make them objectively weaker and likely to lose. That makes them more strategically interesting and well, fun. The not-so-convenient towns should enjoy a lot more replay value this way!


So really, the separation of power between factions comes down to two things: 1. strength of numbers, 2. convenience the town's units provide (for example, the immunities Conflux creatures have, or the high damage capabilities of most Castle creatures which don't depend on chance)... and then, can come other factors which vary and can possibly level the playing field or perhaps turn the tables irreversibly (the Grail, or a super-powerful artifact found, etc.).

Conflux and Necropolis unquestionably are at the top because they win at the numbers game and weaknesses are not as apparent or as easily exploitable; thus, the gap that separates them from the rest.



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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted June 01, 2014 01:22 AM

Going to share my thoughts on this matter.

The main issues with the Conflux tends to be the sprite / phoenix growth combined with the powers of Magic Elementals and the overall speed of the troops. The mind spell immunity for the elementals is darn handy aswell.

Certainly the conflux troops have their weak points (sprites got low health, lv 2-4 units are expensive, magma elementals are wimps and the elemental protection can backfire if you run into a enemy spellcaster with the right spell at hand) but it is no doubt very strong. Even the heroes department aren't showing that many soft spots. Add in the magic university and the town is indeed well fortified for both physical and magical play.


As for the necropolis.
It has more flaws in my opinion. Due to the speed of the skeletons and non draining ability of vampires it has weak start.
The mawkish lv 2-3 units does not help either. Bone/Ghost Dragons are rather measly for their level despite the -1 morale and aging. As commendable as the aging effect may be it is, just like the zombie disease, exposed to the cure spell.
Morale can also be a problem in the start and in the mid to late game if other non undead troops are merged without leadership or morale artifacts.


In regards to its strong sides, the Vampire Lords, can in the hands of a skilled player literally wreak havoc and at the same time amass hundreds skeletons with the renowned necromancy skill. The liches does wonders and prevents grouping (unless the enemy is undead aswell). The Black/Dread Knights are the kings of lv 6 and well worth their price. As the final nail in the coffin the undead nature saves them from many annoying spells and abilities. A solution to this faction could be to reduce the necromancy effect and reduce the population of Vampires.



I do disagree with your view on the Castle though. The Zealots are fragile with only 30 health. As are the Marksmen with 10. It has a frustrating building order (blacksmith, stables and mage guild). The special buildings are useless you play a archipelago map. As a final thorn in the side the heroes of the town aren't very impressive.
In my humble opinion the 'noob' town of Heroes 3 would be Rampart. I has an easy concept and the ploy is simple (hard to master though).


In the end you are correct that the number of troops matter. But consider also what towns can bring out the most troops during week 1. Stronghold for instance, can bring out all lv 1-7 creatures with castle week one if the level 2 dwelling is pre built. While Conflux for example, can only reach 1-7 + Citadel. Let alone calculate monsters from other towns you conquer or from hives and griffin conservatories.

Each town has its ups and downs and one can argue that X town will always be stronger than Y town because of Z factors. But the trick is to learn how to expand one's knowledge and uses with the town you play. That way you will evolve more as a player and you will probably find that all the towns can match eachother pretty well in battle.

That's my two cents.
Peace



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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted June 06, 2014 06:51 PM

Having an angel in your army day 5 week 1 isn't something one should complain about either...
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