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executor
Famous Hero
Otherworldly Ambassador
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posted May 20, 2008 03:06 PM |
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And our point is that the fetus is paying the cost of other people's actions, which it was not able to affect, by its own life.
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Understanding is a three-edged sword.
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted May 20, 2008 03:51 PM |
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The embryo is about 5 mm at size. It has no brain functions, no organs, no nervous systems, no muscular systems, no skeletal systems, no vascular systems, no digestive systems etc. None at all. How is it accurate to call terminating these cells murder?
Murder: the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted May 20, 2008 04:14 PM |
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And our point is that the fetus is paying the cost of other people's actions, which it was not able to affect, by its own life.
Define life first..... My guess is a being with a soul..... Baby needs brain before it can get a soul......
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violent_flower
Promising
Supreme Hero
Almost there.
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posted May 20, 2008 04:34 PM |
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Well since I' am pro-choice I' am not debating with you whether she should be forced to have a child, I am debating with your logic as far as she is pregnant against her will. She chooses to have sex, therefore she chooses to be pregnant or have AIDS or any other consequence that comes from this activity. I do agree that she should be able to terminate if that is what she wants to do, so we are no arguing that point. Now do I feel that one should be allowed to use it as a form of birth control, no?
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Learn how to duck and weave because I will throw truth at you all day!
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted May 20, 2008 05:36 PM |
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I am debating with your logic as far as she is pregnant against her will. She chooses to have sex, therefore she chooses to be pregnant or have AIDS or any other consequence that comes from this activity.
................. If your partner og AIDS, he knows, and he does not tell you. Accourding to some law he is to be jailed or someting because he did not tell you.
Moving back again, you can litteraly write you argument to: "Don't use prevantion when having sex is logical"
Anyway........... You do sex because its good, and you use prevantion for securety. Its that simple, however if the prevantion fails its the prevantions phailing.......
Simple because: You did have secure sex. The pregnancy happend without you even thinking about it.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 20, 2008 08:53 PM |
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And our point is that the fetus is paying the cost of other people's actions, which it was not able to affect, by its own life.
The mother has no obligation to carry the fetus to term.
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Eccentric Opinion
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted May 21, 2008 02:24 PM |
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She wants to have sex. She has sex. It's not against her will.
She does not want to be pregnant.
You know something? This is completely childish, because only children do not take responsibility. Thing is, you know you have a chance to get pregnant. Take responsibility for it.
It is like "OMG I want to go in a dangerous place (which I know it's gonna be dangerous) and I do not want to end up dead". If you have a chance to get killed, then take responsibility for it. For goodness' sake, you are an adult. You take responsibility for your primitive 'pleasures'. Control yourself or take responsibility for what you have done. If you go in that dangerous place to satisfy your adventure pleasures, then take responsibility in case something bad happens.
And please, I don't care what you consider a 'person', or when it is alive. This is too much of a debate and subjective (it seems). Either call it a murder in all cases or none at all. At least this does not contradict anyone. You know it's easy to say "oops, did I just kill that baby?" after perhaps humans would be enlightened and discover they were alive, for example.
If you can't control your urges and do not want to take responsibility for your actions (knowing the consequences!!!), then you do not deserve to be called an adult.
It is not like with AIDS by the way, because you know the consequences. You know there's a chance (or you simply don't even care).
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted May 21, 2008 02:41 PM |
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Edited by Minion at 14:47, 21 May 2008.
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It is like "OMG I want to go in a dangerous place (which I know it's gonna be dangerous) and I do not want to end up dead".
There are an awfull lot of parallels used that are very unaccurate. Having sex in a relationship is not something like "omg I just want to bang" it is a healthy part of the relationship. Wheather you like it or not.
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You take responsibility for your primitive 'pleasures'.
You know, sex maybe a primitive need, but I think you are trying to be something above a human being. Maybe you are, after all you keep hoping for us others to become enlightened and everything. Do you love living in your Ivory Tower?
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And please, I don't care what you consider a 'person', or when it is alive.
If you don't care at all what I think then you could refrain from commenting, and frankly, being quite aggressive.
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If you can't control your urges and do not want to take responsibility for your actions (knowing the consequences!!!), then you do not deserve to be called an adult.
Thank you very much, this also contributes alot to the conversation. I truly thought more of you TheDeath. 
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted May 21, 2008 02:50 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 14:53, 21 May 2008.
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First of all I'm sorry you took my post as 'aggressive', and frankly I think it was somewhat like that. So I apologize.
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There are an awfull lot of parallels used that are very unaccurate. Having sex in a relationship is not something like "omg I just want to bang" it is a healthy part of the relationship. Wheather you like it or not.
If you want to base you on natural instincts, then it's pretty natural to have children too. After all, that is the reason of it 
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You know, sex maybe a primitive need, but I think you are trying to be something above a human being. Maybe you are, after all you keep hoping for us others to become enlightened and everything. Do you love living in your Ivory Tower?
I just examine this from an objective position, and I face the consequences and analyze them.
How are going to evolve if we are going to subjugate to our instincts?
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Then you could refrain from commenting, and frankly, being quite aggressive.
Again, I'm sorry you thought i was aggressive.
What I meant was, this thing is open for debate. We are discussing over a case of 'murder' by some people in the debate. This is a stuff that isn't to be taken lightly. Maybe we could be wrong, maybe the fetus is alive. In that case, it will be really late to say "oops, did we just killed all those babies?". There is a chance (and actually supported by some people) that the fetus is alive. You can't simply ignore it. You may not agree with them, but then how are you supposed to know? They aren't either, but it's a freaking chance. 
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Thank you very much, this also contributes alot to the conversation. I truly thought more of you TheDeath.
Maybe you misinterpreted my definition  .
An adult accepts the consequences that he knew when faced with them. A child does not. A child wants to satisfy his 'playing pleasure' (to have fun so to speak), an adult is there to make sure the kid is not going into trouble. In short, the adult takes responsibility for his children, and for himself/herself. Sex is by no means different.
Some people really have the urge to destroy things... does that mean they should not expect the consequences? They should face them, as they are adults. That's why in a Court you can't tell that to a judge "you had to satisfy your pleasures" because you are not a child, you take responsibility for your actions.
I hope this is more clear and less aggressive. I never wanted to be that way. I apologize.
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Darkshadow
Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
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posted May 21, 2008 03:12 PM |
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but I think you are trying to be something above a human being
Is there something abnormal with that?
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What I meant was, this thing is open for debate. We are discussing over a case of 'murder' by some people in the debate.
Murder?It takes one living being to be killed.They should actually make technology to transfer the fetus to someone who wants it.
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There is a chance (and actually supported by some people) that the fetus is alive.
Give me 5 doctors that agree, And it still takes much much more to bhe living being.
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There are an awfull lot of parallels used that are very unaccurate. Having sex in a relationship is not something like "omg I just want to bang" it is a healthy part of the relationship. Wheather you like it or not.
No, more like the neutral part of it, unlike nowdays they want you to believe.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted May 21, 2008 03:19 PM |
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I don't know how to reply so I'll just be somewhat sarcastic.
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Murder?It takes one living being to be killed.
How do you know he's not alive? Do you know the hidden meanings of life and the Universe?
What makes you think you know better than those on the 'other side' of the camp?
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Give me 5 doctors that agree.
Give me a good reason why a doctor decides that. How do you know a doctor knows the hidden meaning of life? Is he some kind of divine person or is your blind faith in them so strong?
9 out of 10 doctors will usually have different opinions, they're humans btw.
I'm not saying I am better, I'm only saying there's a chance. An important chance.
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted May 21, 2008 03:34 PM |
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I just examine this from an objective position, and I face the consequences and analyze them.
How are going to evolve if we are going to subjugate to our instincts?
Well you don't sound objective every time you write, but don't worry it is only natural This tone is still much more to my liking. As for evolving, imho you can ask that from an individuals perspective, yes. Not from the humanity as a whole. Do you yourself believe that government regulations steer this evoltion into the right direction?
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What I meant was, this thing is open for debate. We are discussing over a case of 'murder' by some people in the debate. This is a stuff that isn't to be taken lightly. Maybe we could be wrong, maybe the fetus is alive. In that case, it will be really late to say "oops, did we just killed all those babies?". There is a chance (and actually supported by some people) that the fetus is alive. You can't simply ignore it. You may not agree with them, but then how are you supposed to know? They aren't either, but it's a freaking chance.
Well the definion of life is also debatable, but the general definitions are rather more complex than what the embryo shows. The cells might very well be considered live cells, just like I can scrape some of my dead skin and find alive skin under there. I guess what you are looking here is that whether the embryo is an individual or not. At least it misses most of the charesteristics that I generally would attribute to a living individual. If all it takes is different dna, then yes it is. But then so is tumor.
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Maybe you misinterpreted my definition .
An adult accepts the consequences that he knew when faced with them. A child does not. A child wants to satisfy his 'playing pleasure' (to have fun so to speak), an adult is there to make sure the kid is not going into trouble. In short, the adult takes responsibility for his children, and for himself/herself. Sex is by no means different.
Some people really have the urge to destroy things... does that mean they should not expect the consequences? They should face them, as they are adults. That's why in a Court you can't tell that to a judge "you had to satisfy your pleasures" because you are not a child, you take responsibility for your actions.
I hope this is more clear and less aggressive. I never wanted to be that way. I apologize.
No problem, we all let our emotions show now and then  As for taking responsibility for what you do. You know that if I drive a car, there is a possibility that I might run over someone. Or that I might hit another car. What is the level responsibility I should bear? So it turns out I caused a death, so I should be punished accordingly. Simple, I take responsibility for my action. Or should there be a consideration of that I did not intend to kill, even though I did choose to drive a car?
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Darkshadow
Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
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posted May 21, 2008 03:37 PM |
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I don't know how to reply so I'll just be somewhat sarcastic.
You lost the skill?How weird 
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What makes you think you know better than those on the 'other side' of the camp?
I don't, It was my opinion, it dosen't have to be their's.
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9 out of 10 doctors will usually have different opinions, they're humans btw.
Yeah, and they know more about those things than most of us.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted May 21, 2008 03:41 PM |
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Well the definion of life is also debatable, but the general definitions are rather more complex than what the embryo shows. The cells might very well be considered live cells, just like I can scrape some of my dead skin and find alive skin under there. I guess what you are looking here is that whether the embryo is an individual or not. At least it misses most of the charesteristics that I generally would attribute to a living individual. If all it takes is different dna, then yes it is. But then so is tumor.
Well yes, the cells may be living (since they are), but it's important to note that these cells will grow, unlike let's one-cell organisms. It grows into an individual.
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No problem, we all let our emotions show now and then As for taking responsibility for what you do. You know that if I drive a car, there is a possibility that I might run over someone. Or that I might hit another car. What is the level responsibility I should bear? So it turns out I caused a death, so I should be punished accordingly. Simple, I take responsibility for my action. Or should there be a consideration of that I did not intend to kill, even though I did choose to drive a car?
Very good example.
Of course you had the chance to kill somebody with the car, and once you've done it, you should take responsibility. That doesn't mean you should go to jail at all, it only means you shouldn't just ignore the whole thing and go to the 'easy' way. This is somewhat wrong IMO, you kill somebody accidentally, you should at least do something about it, not make it to oblivion. You should at least help the family of that person or whatever else (or try to take him/her to the hospital if he/she is not dead). In short, not the 'easy' way.
For the fetus, you should just take care of him or whatever, not choose the 'easy' way like it never happened. You have to remember that this affects someone else (i.e the fetus), it's not only "I do what I want with myself and my body", it's also about someone else. That's why you need to take responsibility.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 21, 2008 09:00 PM |
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Thing is, you know you have a chance to get pregnant. Take responsibility for it.
She does not have an obligation to carry the fetus.
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9 out of 10 doctors will usually have different opinions, they're humans btw
4 out of 5 cannibals agree, the fifth one needed salt.
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Of course you had the chance to kill somebody with the car, and once you've done it, you should take responsibility. That doesn't mean you should go to jail at all, it only means you shouldn't just ignore the whole thing and go to the 'easy' way. This is somewhat wrong IMO, you kill somebody accidentally, you should at least do something about it, not make it to oblivion.
A car accident and an abortion are hardly analogous. A more accurate analogy would be the following:
You were playing baseball, and you broke your window. You can either replace that window or live with a broken window for the rest of your life.
When you make a mistake, why not fix it, instead of "living with it"?
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Eccentric Opinion
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted May 21, 2008 11:01 PM |
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An even better question is: what you live with more than one person? What are your "obligations" then as far as the broken window is concerned?
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Anakrom
Known Hero
(Scroll) Out of the blue
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posted May 21, 2008 11:26 PM |
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Abortion - I donīt see reason why abortion should be banned. Even if we make abortion illegal, women who doesnīt want baby will simply use other methods (more drastical, such as poisoning by pills, few punches to the belly and such) to get rid of the fetus. I would leave this choice to "future" mother, and abortion seems as "medically" right in case that woman decides to stop her pregnancy. We live in world, where everybody should have a choice - and in this case its imo mother (argumentation that fetus doesnīt have a choice simply doesnīt work, because fetus is relying on his mother). Banning abortion would cause much more damage and suffering than present status, and that is why I consider abortion as more humanistic way than possiblity of mother keeping child against her will.
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Result matters
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 22, 2008 12:29 AM |
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Corribus: If you live with more than one person, you have even more of a reason to fix the window. Because it's their window too.
Anarkom: I agree with what you said, and would like to add something.Quote:
use other methods (more drastical, such as poisoning by pills, few punches to the belly and such)
Or coat hangers, knitting needles, and throwing themselves down the stairs. Is this the world that anti-choice people want?
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Eccentric Opinion
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted May 22, 2008 12:13 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 12:15, 22 May 2008.
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Corribus: If you live with more than one person, you have even more of a reason to fix the window. Because it's their window too.
You have VERY weird analogies.
Remember that when you decide to do abortion, you're not replacing an 'object' but rather something that will turn into a person. Since you don't just go to the town shop to buy babies, I hardly think your analogy is correct.
You see?
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Or coat hangers, knitting needles, and throwing themselves down the stairs. Is this the world that anti-choice people want?
You know something, if it was only about your body, then it should be allowed. But it is about someone else as well. You see, you are about to take the life (or future life) of someone else, because you were irresponsible enough to need that. It's not like replacing your window, it's more like this:
You play basketball and you accidentally hit someone hard in the head. He/she may either be dead, or need medical care. Either way, you don't go to the shop to 'replace' them
The problem with abortion, again, is that 'someone else' (or future would-be someone else) is involved (i.e the fetus), not just some personal object. You can't go and replace someone else (they're not slaves). That is why it is wrong.
The question above ("is this the world that anti-choice people want") is like asking whether 'the world' is classified by the criminals or not. You see, it is a matter of affecting someone else, that means the things you do for abortion are not only affecting you, but someone else as well. As far as I know, this shouldn't be allowed.
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Anakrom
Known Hero
(Scroll) Out of the blue
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posted May 22, 2008 01:15 PM |
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I miss one argument in this discussion - what is "purpose" of the baby? I think that baby is final product of love between couple - it is greatest thing that you can leave on this world - person born from love of two people, made from their genomes, thier own blood, living being created by mother and father. What can be better than having a baby with person you love and worship? This should be imo main reason for baby to come on this world - because two loving parents are impatiently awaiting his arrival and are willing to bring him up into their descendant. This is main reasons why child should be born - love and will of his/her parents.
If you look at problem this way, you should see, that it should be parents who are deciding future life of fetus. It is mother who knows the best if fetus inside her is lovely future baby, or just "parasite", "trespasser" or whatever you want to call it. Do you want baby to be born at all costs? But why, if parents will not care about him - father will just pay aliments and mother will suffer from trauma and have child with person, that she doesnīt find as her "life-partner". Having baby isnīt fun, it is one of the most important and serious decisions in life of person, and each child should be born into stable relationship. What is point of child being born as "bastard"? You say that person should be responsible and pay for its mistakes - but why should pay even child, who is born into broke-up unprepared family, and suffer for mistake of their reckless parents? Mother maybe wasnīt "responsible" when she became pregnant, but what if she will be still responsible when the child come to this world - answer is sad but true - child will suffer more than others, which were born in stable and prepared relationship. Abortion brings solution for moments, when parents are not ready or willing to care about possible descendant. Child should be born into ripe relationship, with mature couple who is willing to cake care about baby - this is the best possible way for child to be brought up as content and loving person. Abortion, in my eyes, reduced suffering of many, living and unborn, and made life of human race more pleasant and easy.
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Result matters
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