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TheDeath
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posted June 29, 2008 09:56 PM |
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Yes, but that's not an answer. What would you do if you grew five more arms? 
Is that relevant to the subject?
If I had five more arms, I'd probably use them to lift heavier things (more muscles) or be taken by scientists (forcefully) to examine me -- the government then creates soldiers with so many arms to carry more guns, etc.
Or I would become a super-villain 
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Analogies have to have two qualities: they have to be similar to the thing that they're being compared do (and your analogy passes that test), and they have to describe something that actually happens or is conceivable to happen to somebody in real life (yours fails that test).
My analogy is not to be compared to reality -- or in fact the things we know (you see, this kind of thing could have already happened but not reach media's attention  ).
The thing is, that all normal 'laws' apply here -- you don't need paramedics to decide that, for example. And besides, what if the paramedics can't lift him (because he dies)?
I tried to make this analogy more 1 to 1, or I would have used the previous drunk analogy (with the beating) which is a bit off but has more reality base.
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mvassilev
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posted June 29, 2008 10:01 PM |
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My analogy is not to be compared to reality
Analogies are supposed to be something familiar (or, at least, more commonplace than the thing that they're compared to).
But I'll answer your analogy, bad as it is. You'd have to take care of the guy because you beat him up and dragged him to your house. But you don't drag fetuses into your body! That is, it was your will for the guy to be in your house. But it is not your will for the fetus to be within you at any point.
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TheDeath
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posted June 29, 2008 10:07 PM |
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I don't think it was your "will" (actually it was kinda because you got drunk) to drag that guy to your home, since you call it an accident.
But of course it was partially your will to conceive the fetus -- it doesn't appear if you do nothing. Like I said, the action implicitly states your will. Like "I want to detonate this nuclear bomb with a 'random' key generator, because I think it's fun, but I don't want to kill anyone or destroy anything!"
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mvassilev
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posted June 29, 2008 10:19 PM |
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you call it an accident
I'd call it more of a bad analogy.
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"I want to detonate this nuclear bomb with a 'random' key generator, because I think it's fun, but I don't want to kill anyone or destroy anything!"
Let's go through this again. When you beat someone up or kill them, your actions are impacting other people. When you're getting an abortion, your actions are impacting yourself and a fetus who doesn't and shouldn't count as a person.
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TheDeath
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posted June 29, 2008 10:24 PM |
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Ok it's kinda late and I think this is getting nowhere, but for the "fetus shouldn't count as a person" I already explained that several pages ago that social rights are subjective, not only from different people's eyes, but also for different countries.
I already gave enough biological facts and tried to explain reasonably why it is a person or whatever (social person, because person you are without any papers/law). I also gave my own opinion on the matter, and perhaps some society models and I can also bring religious arguments. I don't know if there's anything I have to say about THAT thing anymore.
You only have your opinion and a society model, but since consensus is not necessarily brought up by popularity, it makes all of us wonder.
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No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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antipaladin
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posted June 29, 2008 11:13 PM |
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They shouldn't.
what do you mean they shouldnt? its netural,for teens to have sex,protected,but netural,history shows when a male or a female does NOT have sex in teen years but much later on,late twentys,early 30's ussaly catastrophic socially,due to our silly society. if they dont they will grow sexually desprate,prostitution->sex obsesstion->maniac deprassion->rape and murder,or low self esteem. sometimes even sex addicts.
Now dont get me wrong,its not right,its jsut the way it is.
plus Accidents do happen.
If you would in a drunk state of mind,sleep with someone else then your wife(in some countrys i know childern are born pre merrige) and impregentes her. NOW if your wife knows,your kicked out of the house and forget of your kids.
if she doesnt its your secret.
If she delivers,your repution,her repution,and the kids rep,is dead, you got no funds and nor does she. No help from goverment.
Wont you abort?
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GenieLord
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posted June 30, 2008 12:03 AM |
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In the last years, there's a smaller need to abort, simply because there are the "pills of the day after". In Israel they are called "Postinor", but it has many different names and versions. Those pills are taken after the sex, and they prevent pregnancy. BUT they cannot be used as a contraceptive, simply since they are too strong. They "restart" the entire system. When a woman takes it once (besides of being painful), it changes the dates of her period, and they won't change back. It's only for an emergency.
So in old days, sometimes women had to abort when a condom broke or when they had sex without protection. This still happens today, but less than before.
Edit: I agree with what Anti is saying. Many people assume automatically that a sex of teenagers is irrisposible sex, or unprotected sex.
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mvassilev
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posted June 30, 2008 01:25 AM |
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social rights are subjective
Did I disagree? But, through reason, we can decide what the rights should be like.
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I already gave enough biological facts and tried to explain reasonably why it is a person or whatever (social person, because person you are without any papers/law).
It isn't a person because it can't interact with anyone, and no one can interact with it.
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Many people assume automatically that a sex of teenagers is irrisposible sex, or unprotected sex.
That's because it often is.
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Mytical
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posted June 30, 2008 07:35 AM |
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Actually the fetus does interact with somebody..it's mother. However, saying that it is ok to kill it because it is not a 'person' or because it feels no pain is another form of a cop out.
So .. it's ok to kill somebody if they feel no pain when you kill them? Well there are plenty of drugs and ways to do that, interesting.
What defines being a 'person'? Is it thought? Coma Patients are said not to have thought..are they not people? Is it being independant? Then some people who have crippling diseases or physical problems are not people?
Sorry the arguements just don't fly. If you are going to abort a baby fine. Just don't try to justify it. Same thing as taking some coma patient off life support. Your going to do it fine, just don't make excuses for it. People always want a way out, to justify their actions. It's because of so and so, or such and such. Instead of taking responsibility for their actions and decisions.
I support abortions the same way I support somebody taking someone off life support. Yeah, it's tough, but it is a CHOICE.
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TheDeath
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posted June 30, 2008 01:33 PM |
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what do you mean they shouldnt? its netural,for teens to have sex,protected,but netural,history shows when a male or a female does NOT have sex in teen years but much later on,late twentys,early 30's ussaly catastrophic socially,due to our silly society.
I don't know what "it's natural" means but most certainly not everyone has it and in fact, a long time ago, pills weren't even available
I'm not saying that you need to 'want' a child for that, but you HAVE TO BE PREPARED for that. Most teens are not, trust me.
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Now dont get me wrong,its not right,its jsut the way it is.
plus Accidents do happen.
If you would in a drunk state of mind,sleep with someone else then your wife(in some countrys i know childern are born pre merrige) and impregentes her. NOW if your wife knows,your kicked out of the house and forget of your kids.
if she doesnt its your secret.
If she delivers,your repution,her repution,and the kids rep,is dead, you got no funds and nor does she. No help from goverment.
Wont you abort?
Let me put this another way. So basically what you are saying is that, you get drunk (your fault), you sleep with someone else than your wife (your fault), and then you're telling me that to get away with this you should abort.
Ok, but let me tell you something. What has that fetus done to deserve and take your mistakes? It's pretty fair for your wife to kick you out of the house, because it was your fault that you got drunk. You have that choice, you took the "fun" side (drunk), then accept the consequences, not push that blame on the fetus so you get off easily.
What you're telling me is that, to get away from your mistakes, it's ok to involve someone else and blame/put your mistakes on its behalf (the fetus) so you get away? I mean, in this situation, you are the offender, and you're telling me that you are the one who deserves to get away from this, as if you are the victim, not the innocent fetus? You got drunk, you did the 'mistake' (and again, there is a difference between a 'duty' accident and a 'fun' accident, the latter applies here), and you tell me you are the one who needs to get away from this easily?
Seriously, I do not usually have sympathy for the offenders especially when they try to put the blame on the victim 
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Asheera
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posted June 30, 2008 01:54 PM |
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Seriously, I do not usually have sympathy for the offenders
Says the one that actually has sympathies for criminals in that he believes they should live
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GenieLord
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posted June 30, 2008 01:55 PM |
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Many people assume automatically that a sex of teenagers is irrisposible sex, or unprotected sex.
That's because it often is.
Prove it.
Have you read any studies that show that? Have you seen TV shows that say that? What makes you think this way? That's simply prejudice.
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TheDeath
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posted June 30, 2008 01:56 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 14:00, 30 Jun 2008.
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@Asheera: Now are you doing the same stuff mvass does and rip a phrase and quote only a part of it? Comment on the whole phrase please
And no, I don't have sympathy for criminals who blame someone else for the victim -- not sympathy in the sense that we should 'forgive them' or put them in prison. Someone who still acts like that is obviously not to be forgiven any time soon, since he doesn't even acknowledge what he has done
@GenieLord: The problem is that accidents can happen, and when you know they will and you're not on 'duty', you NEED to be prepared in such a case, not blame the fault on someone innocent because of your fault.
Besides, so-called 'media' studies usually put you up what you want to hear, statistics as well. If it's better for the overall population (who doesn't want to have fun and get away easily if they've done something wrong?) with no sympathy for the innocent, then yeah. Besides, not to mention that such studies depend on a lot of factors. I've never been put up in ANY statistics of any kind for example
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Asheera
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posted June 30, 2008 01:57 PM |
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Edited by Asheera at 13:58, 30 Jun 2008.
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@Death: "Especially" =/= "Only if"
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antipaladin
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posted June 30, 2008 02:04 PM |
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I'm not saying that you need to 'want' a child for that, but you HAVE TO BE PREPARED for that. Most teens are not, trust me.
so its not ok to be afride before first time,to sweat firusoly before first hand to hand? praphes people shouldnt be nurves before first kiss?
edit: do u know someone who first time you preper and do it responcibly? without fears,anxitys,doubts ?
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TheDeath
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posted June 30, 2008 02:06 PM |
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Kiss? What does that have to do with abortion?
As for the 'nervous' thing, there are always first times, and it's better to do it when you are prepared for it, because naturally you can be clumsy.
Besides what's with all the afraid stuff?
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GenieLord
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posted June 30, 2008 02:11 PM |
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I'm not saying that you need to 'want' a child for that, but you HAVE TO BE PREPARED for that. Most teens are not, trust me.
First of all, how do you define "prepared"?
If someone makes a decision to have sex, I guess that s/he is ready for that, or atleast want that.
And I see nothing wrong with trying something that you are not sure whether you're ready for it or not, if it doesn't damage you. Afterall, most of the people don't wait till they pass 18 to have sex.
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TheDeath
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posted June 30, 2008 02:14 PM |
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I meant prepared for an eventual baby
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Afterall, most of the people don't wait till they pass 18 to have sex.
And are you telling me this is an ok thing?
No wonder our society degenerates so fast, including drugs without expecting consequences (I'm not saying drugs are bad, but drugs at such young age... ).
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GenieLord
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posted June 30, 2008 02:20 PM |
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What's so wrong about protected sex of teenagers? Does it damage anyone?
And I do think that drugs are bad, and a terrible thing at any age, that can ruin lives. But that's for other discussion. 
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TheDeath
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posted June 30, 2008 02:30 PM |
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What's so wrong about protected sex of teenagers? Does it damage anyone?
The same as smoking is drinking or smoking for teenagers (ideally) -- it's not that they die out of those but they rise up with a different mentality, they are a bit fragile at that young age, if you know what I mean.
As for the "damage anyone", it does if the accident happens and you abort. That's why I said you have to be prepared (for an eventual baby) if you don't want to cause any damage to anyone else.
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And I do think that drugs are bad, and a terrible thing at any age, that can ruin lives. But that's for other discussion.
Yes but what I meant was that adults have a different mentality and are more 'resistant' in that way to drugs (the younger you are, the more fragile you are, and more your mentality will be twisted and become addicted, etc).
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