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JollyJoker
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posted July 11, 2009 09:33 AM |
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If you insist on violece, aborting the result of a rape is SELF-DEFENCE, not murder.
And, Bak, don't waste your breath. It's useless
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Elodin
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posted July 11, 2009 09:50 AM |
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The human life in the womb is doing nothing to harm the mother so abortion can't be self-defence unless giving birth to the baby would be a severe health risk to the mother. And then abortion should only be done if a C-section can't be done.
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Doomforge
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posted July 11, 2009 10:13 AM |
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Growing up in an orphanage is infinitely better than being murdered.
No.
Seriously, if I had the chance to get thrown into the gutter BEFORE birth, as a zygote, or thrown into an orphanage-gutter AFTER... I'd happily choose the former.
Most orphanages here are nightmare.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 11, 2009 10:56 AM |
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The human life in the womb is doing nothing to harm the mother so abortion can't be self-defence unless giving birth to the baby would be a severe health risk to the mother. And then abortion should only be done if a C-section can't be done.
Of course it does. In case of a rape it harms her by its very existance, not to mention the changes it forces onto her. A thieving invader in your house is doing nothing to harm the occupants either, does he?
No, your point is invalid and incorrect.
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baklava
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Mostly harmless
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posted July 11, 2009 12:26 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 12:28, 11 Jul 2009.
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And, Bak, don't waste your breath. It's useless
True but I see you're doing it all the time so I thought there might be something fun about it 
@MVass
In the early first trimester, yes. It is equivalent, in my eyes, to killing a fly - I would avoid it in any way possible because life is life, but if there is no other option, then I would do it. If I had a chance of giving both that child and me a good, normal life after it's born, then I wouldn't abort; but if not, if he's father is a rapist or if I'm 17 or similar, I would. I would feel horrible if I was responsible for that, for example if the child got there due to lack of caution between my partner and me, but if it got there because of a rapist it's a no-brainer.
@Elodin
I stand behind my opinion, then, that all people who wish to force raped women to give birth to those children are maniacs.
Giving up your child to someone that loves him... Are you living in a cave, man? Children are not kittens. It's a bit more complicated than that. There is a huge chance that the child will remain in the orphanage and that no one will care for him for the rest of his life. Would you take a child whose father is a rapist and whose mother is chronically depressed because it was forced by the authorities to give birth to it, effectively ruining a good part of her life? Let me guess, "I wouldn't but someone sure would". Not good enough.
Like Doomforge said, it's better to undo that poor life before it gets alive.
Cells are multiplying rapidly, yes. But it is still not a human. It doesn't know it's there, it doesn't think, it doesn't learn, it depends on energy provided to it in order to become a human being. If it gets no energy, if it's aborted, then it's gone before it gets human. It would undoubtedly one day become one of us; but every spermatozoon could.
On another note, if a pregnant woman falls down the stairs is she guilty of negligent homicide?
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JollyJoker
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posted July 11, 2009 12:59 PM |
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And, Bak, don't waste your breath. It's useless
True but I see you're doing it all the time so I thought there might be something fun about it
Point taken and agreed. 
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On another note, if a pregnant woman falls down the stairs is she guilty of negligent homicide?
I had that discussion. It's even worse. If abortion is legally forbidden and considered murder, you'll have to legally examine EVERY accident endangering a fetus as a possible tried and failed murder and every accidental abortion on whether it might have been a planned one.
If you do something that involves a certain danger - riding, for example - this might be seen as wilfully endangering, if something happens, and so on. It's absurd.
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Elodin
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posted July 11, 2009 06:01 PM |
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Growing up in an orphanage is infinitely better than being murdered.
No.
Seriously, if I had the chance to get thrown into the gutter BEFORE birth, as a zygote, or thrown into an orphanage-gutter AFTER... I'd happily choose the former.
You have no right to say that orphans are better off dead. Are you now advocating that all orphans should be killed to "put them out of their misery?"
That's ludicrous. If the person thinks life in an orphanage is so terrible he can run away or kill himself. You don't have a right to kill someone and say "Oh, he is better off dead than being in an orphanage." And of course the child may very well be adopted and live with a loving family.
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The human life in the womb is doing nothing to harm the mother so abortion can't be self-defence unless giving birth to the baby would be a severe health risk to the mother. And then abortion should only be done if a C-section can't be done.
Of course it does. In case of a rape it harms her by its very existence, not to mention the changes it forces onto her. A thieving invader in your house is doing nothing to harm the occupants either, does he?
No, your point is invalid and incorrect.
Your point of view is quite invalid and incorrect. The life in the womb is taking no action to harm the mother. It is inaccurate to say that the mere existence of the life is harming her.
And there are certainly rape victims who do not abort the baby and they are not harmed. Therefore your claim is without any merit whatsoever.
The baby did not scheme to steal her possessions. The baby is not a thieving invader. To compare him to a thief is just insane. The baby did not "break into" her womb.
The new human life is not forcing any changes upon her either. Human beings have natural biological functions. The baby had nothing to do with the mother getting pregnant.
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And, Bak, don't waste your breath. It's useless
Lol! You compare unborn babies to home invaders and then complain that pro-lifers won't listen! We listen but we reject such silly arguments.
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I stand behind my opinion, then, that all people who wish to force raped women to give birth to those children are maniacs.
Ah, well. Call me a maniac for defending the right of babies to live then. I call you a maniac for sayin people have a right to kill babies just because they don't want them.
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Giving up your child to someone that loves him... Are you living in a cave, man? Children are not kittens
Oh, no. It is the pro-abortionists who want to treat unborn babies like unwanted kittens. Crush his little skull and toss him away like garbage. How very sad and inhumane.
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Would you take a child whose father is a rapist and whose mother is chronically depressed because it was forced by the authorities to give birth to it, effectively ruining a good part of her life?
Wow, so giving birth results in chronic disease now, eh? Lol!!!! No, giving birth doesn't ruin the life of the mother.
Actually the perspective adoptive parents have no idea about the parents. And most don't care. There are many who chose to adopt handicapped babies that you evidently would rather have died.
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Cells are multiplying rapidly, yes. But it is still not a human
Your statement has no basis in science. The cells of dead things don't multiply so their previous claim that the fetus is not alive is invalid. And the fetus has human DNA so the fetus is a separate human life from the mother.
So again, your claim that the fetus is not human life has no basis in science. As I said before, the fetus is one stage of the human life cycle. Just like the toddler stage and puberty stage is.
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On another note, if a pregnant woman falls down the stairs is she guilty of negligent homicide?
If a pregnant woman accidentally falls down stairs and the unborn baby dies she is not guilty of homicide. She had an accident. She had no intention of tripping. Every person has tripped at times in their life.
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If abortion is legally forbidden and considered murder, you'll have to legally examine EVERY accident endangering a fetus as a possible tried and failed murder and every accidental abortion on whether it might have been a planned one.
That's like saying it should be legal to push your child down a flight of stairs because a child might accidentally fall down the stairs and the parents be blamed.
That sort of reasoning would get rid of a lot of our laws. Can't have a law against rape because an innocent person might get blamed. Can't have a law against murder because an innocent person might be blamed.
Its absurd.
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mvassilev
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posted July 11, 2009 06:07 PM |
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Doomforge
Admirable
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posted July 11, 2009 06:20 PM |
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Elodin, again, learn to proof-read.... Let me help you:
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Seriously, if I had the chance to get thrown into the gutter BEFORE birth, as a zygote, or thrown into an orphanage-gutter AFTER... I'd happily choose the former.
I bolded/underlined/marked red the key word for you..
yes, I was speaking about me and myself... only.
So why do you talk rubbish about me advocating this or that?
Stop putting words into other people's mouths. Thanks 
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And of course the child may very well be adopted and live with a loving family.
Yeah, but to be honest, it's like winning 10 million dollars in a lottery. Exceptions don't make rules. I don't know what country are you from, but in mine, there are some things you should be aware:
1. hierarchical structure. The oldest, most aggresive boys simply abuse the younger kids. Unfortunately, that can also mean - and sometimes does - sexual abuse.
2. Insensitivity of housemothers. Beating is pretty normal.
3. Poorness, loneliness, not having anyone close to you.
Read some documentary books, trust me, you will understand living in such places (usually orphanages in small towns) is hell. I'm serious, I'd rather be aborted then forced to grow up there.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 11, 2009 07:08 PM |
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Preaching time again, I see. What is most absurd is when preachers suddenly start mentioning "science", as if they had an interest in that or would care.
Treating women as "bearing-machines" can't be right - but's that's what those supposed pro-lifers are doing here. Raped? Tough luck. Bear the baby. Make women slaves of men again - once you get them pregnant, no matter how, you own them.
I will say that I have only contempt for the extreme "pro-life" position. The name is incorrect, since they don't care about life at all - only about things that's not their business, as usual when positions are religiously motivated.
Useless.
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Elodin
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posted July 11, 2009 09:01 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 21:05, 11 Jul 2009.
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@ Doomforge
No, I don't need to learn to proofread. Let us examine my statment and your complete response.
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Growing up in an orphanage is infinitely better than being murdered.
No.
Seriously, if I had the chance to get thrown into the gutter BEFORE birth, as a zygote, or thrown into an orphanage-gutter AFTER... I'd happily choose the former.
As you see, when I said it would be better for a child to be in an orphanage than murdered you said, "NO."
You in fact the opinion you stated was that the child was better for the child to die than to live in an orphanage.
Now, if you have reconsidered your position, just say that you have changed your mind rather than saying that you did not say it.
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Yeah, but to be honest, it's like winning 10 million dollars in a lottery
Please. There are lots of people who are adopted into loving families. And even if not one child were ever adopted into a loving family that still would not be justification for murdering a child.
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Preaching time again, I see. What is most absurd is when preachers suddenly start mentioning "science", as if they had an interest in that or would care.
It is interesting that when I give scientific facts you can't dispute you say I am preaching. Evernone who has a different opinion from you is preaching, right?
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Treating women as "bearing-machines" can't be right - but's that's what those supposed pro-lifers are doing here.
Lol! That is ludicrous. No one is treating a woman as a "bearing machine." Rape is a terrible thing that I would punish by the death penalty if it were up to me.
Rape is a tragedy. But there is no reason to murder the human life in the mother's womb because the father raped her.
Pro-abortionists treat the child like garbage to be thrown away instead of an innocent human life to be treasured.
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Make women slaves of men again - once you get them pregnant, no matter how, you own them.
No one is suggesting making women slaves. We just don't want innocent human lives to be murdered.
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I will say that I have only contempt for the extreme "pro-life" position. The name is incorrect, since they don't care about life at all - only about things that's not their business, as usual when positions are religiously motivated.
Oh, yes, I am well aware of your disdain for religious people, especially if they they say anything is true that you don't think is true.
But I presented scientific facts. I have not presented one single "religious" argument in the discuss. And you have been unable to dispute the facts. YOU ARE THE ONE BRINGING IN RELIGION, JUST AS A SLUR ATTEMPT.
And it is very much a falsehood to say that pro-lifers don't care about life. We are defending the unborn. We don't want them murdered.
Abortion is big business. Abortion makes a lot of money. Abortion is also used for "social engineering."
The founder of Planned Parenthood, was a racist. She said "We do not want word to get out that we want to exterminate the Negro population." Abortion is used by people like her "to get rid of the undesirables of society."
http://www.acts1711.com/sanger.htm
And of course some just use abortion as a means of "birth control." Casually murdering the baby so that that can continue their "party" lifestyle without slowing down do to have a baby.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 11, 2009 09:59 PM |
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It is interesting that when I give scientific facts you can't dispute you say I am preaching. Evernone who has a different opinion from you is preaching, right?
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Treating women as "bearing-machines" can't be right - but's that's what those supposed pro-lifers are doing here.
Lol! That is ludicrous. No one is treating a woman as a "bearing machine." Rape is a terrible thing that I would punish by the death penalty if it were up to me.
Rape is a tragedy. But there is no reason to murder the human life in the mother's womb because the father raped her.
You have no opinion. You do not discuss. You preach what you take to be god's opinion.. The Italicks are an example.
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Elodin
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posted July 11, 2009 10:15 PM |
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You have no opinion. You do not discuss. You preach what you take to be god's opinion.. The Italicks are an example.
Lol! You turn every dicussion into a religion/God bashing thread, especially when you have no counter to the points of "the other side."
I have not brought any religious arguement into this discussion.
I said "Rape is a tragedy. But there is no reason to murder the human life in the mother's womb because the father raped her." That is NOT a religious argument.
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Doomforge
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posted July 11, 2009 10:48 PM |
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Dear Elodin, the "no" reffered to my case too.. mine and only mine.. geez, I thought it was obvious...
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baklava
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posted July 12, 2009 01:15 AM |
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Edited by baklava at 01:16, 12 Jul 2009.
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As of late, I have this personal rule, Elodin, not to answer to quote wars.
If you would care to rephrase your reply to that post of mine into something readable, I'd be happy to answer it.
This way there is little left for me to do but scratch my crotch and inform you of my lack of interest in pursuing a quotespam discussion.
Also, I've just noticed that in this thread, I've seen TheDeath, JJ and MVass agreeing with me. 
What... have I become
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Elodin
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posted July 12, 2009 02:07 AM |
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As of late, I have this personal rule, Elodin, not to answer to quote wars.
I was not aware we were engaged in a war. And I notice you have been quoting throughout the thread.
My reply is quite readable. I addressed several things you said individually under the quotes of what you had said. Don't let it bother you that you are unable to defend your positions. This is just an internet forum and I think defending killing a known innocent human life with premeditation is hard indeed.
Oh, I could care less if Obama, the Pope, and Rush Limbaugh agree with you. That is besides the point.
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baklava
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posted July 12, 2009 02:34 AM |
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Edited by baklava at 03:21, 12 Jul 2009.
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It's not a war, it's a quote war. Wars kill innocents, quote wars kill sensible discussions.
I cannot recall using 75 quotes in any of my posts but, if you consider that as winning a discussion, by all means do - it'll make both of us feel better. After all, you're not here to discuss anything but to try to prove to yourself that you're right. Or you could be trolling the hell out of all of us; we can never know. But hey, that's the beauty of the internet.
Still, if my daughter ever gets raped and conceives, anyone that tries to force anything else on her will be shot at.
I would also like you to know that I understand your overwhelming wish to treasure all potential human life - but it is my opinion that your oversimplified view of both forced and regular pregnancy, giving birth and raising a child, is severely clouding your vision on this issue. But as you gather life experience, you will hopefully come to understand the reasoning behind our points of view too, and realize it's not as simple as it may seem.
In other words you might stop being a maniac. Just kidding. You're not a maniac, you're just so fanatically obsessed with your own views that you ignore some other factors in the equation. And that's why other people, who tend to ignore other factors a tad less, get irritated by your attitude. Which is a pity since you're the last member of this forum to use Bible quotes to piss off atheists, and I always love to see that.
Cheers
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Elodin
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posted July 12, 2009 04:26 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 04:30, 12 Jul 2009.
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I cannot recall using 75 quotes in any of my posts but, if you consider that as winning a discussion, by all means do
I've not used 75 quotes. But I do sometimes examine things in detail. But using quotes a person can see exactly what I am referring to.
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After all, you're not here to discuss anything but to try to prove to yourself that you're right. Or you could be trolling the hell out of all of us; we can never know. But hey, that's the beauty of the internet.
Actually I am here to discuss things. It is sad that you have chosen to turn to the tactic of just insulting and smearing those who disagree with you instead of addressing the points that they bring up.
"Troll" would more aptly describe what you are doing. Your latest post is just a rant against me.
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I would also like you to know that I understand your overwhelming wish to treasure all potential human life
It is scientifically inaccurate to say a fetus is "potential" human life. The cells are multiplying rapidly. The cells of dead things don't multiply. Also, the fetus has unique human DNA and so is a separate human life from the mother.
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but it is my opinion that your oversimplified view of both forced and regular pregnancy, giving birth and raising a child, is severely clouding your vision on this issue.
It is my opinion that it is your view that is clouded. The scientific facts are clear. The fetus is a human life merely in the early stage of the human life cycle. He will continue to progress through the various stages of the human life cycle until the day that he dies.
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But as you gather life experience, you will hopefully come to understand the reasoning behind our points of view too, and realize it's not as simple as it may seem.
Actually, it is not at all complex. You either think you have the right to snuff out a known innocent human life or you don't.
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You're not a maniac, you're just so fanatically obsessed with your own views that you ignore some other factors in the equation. And that's why other people, who tend to ignore other factors a tad less, get irritated by your attitude.
It is interesting that those who call others fanatics are obsessed with their own views while accusing others of obsession. "The other side" gets annoyed with me because they are unable to refute my points and then they just turn to insults.
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Which is a pity since you're the last member of this forum to use Bible quotes to piss off atheists, and I always love to see that.
I don't use Bible quotes to piss off anyone.
But I do think many Christians just chose to leave because to the way the anti-Christians treat them.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
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posted July 12, 2009 08:53 AM |
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I said "Rape is a tragedy. But there is no reason to murder the human life in the mother's womb because the father raped her." That is NOT a religious argument.
It's not an argumnt at all - it's an absolute claim (there is no reason to) without any reasoning given. Who says that it is so? You? The Bible? God? Your brothers and sisters of the preaching front? WHO?
Because some other people say, THERE IS.
You know, what pisses me off most with you and people like you? If anyone mentions the really activist fanatics who call themselves Christians and find a lot of followers - you know, those that burn hospitals where abortions take place and threaten docs who do them, the godhatesfags activists and others: you say: those are not real Christians. But you just wash it off like Pilatus. I thought, the one bad apple ruins the whole basket. So it would be your bloody duty as a "real" Christian, FIRST to fight the bad apples who would seem to do all the real Christians a bad service, and make DAMN sure that no good-willing peaceful Christian can mistake those misguided fanatics with the real thing - or so it would seem.
But, strangely enough, that never happens. The "real Christians" like you NEVER fight them. They are never seen protesting against the more violent and militant "Christians". Which leaves only one conclusion. Which is one of the reasons I despise the double-tongue, wash-it-off, busybody know-it-all and god-with-all-you-sinners attitude.
That people like you even USE the words science and scientific, is basically an offense against science, scientists and their great work - you and yours don't even know what the word means. You have no respect for either scientists or science. It's just another arrow, when it comes handy, to fire upon those who are standing in the way of "the true truth" which has as much to do with science than the Bible can be called a scientific text book. Because if science is contradicting any one of your precious beliefs - "true truths" -, then it's uddenly not valid anymore. If it was for people like you, scientists would have been burned at the stakes, as soon as they started to come up with things that seemed to contradict the Bible.
"Discussion"? I repeat: you don't discuss. you are trolling this board with preaching your sorry "truths". You have nothing to say that I couldn't read in the Bible. Have your "discussions" with whom you want, I'll pass on them.
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Mytical
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posted July 12, 2009 09:17 AM |
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Well I have been avoiding this topic like a plague, but guess I should at least put my 2 cents worth in.
I don't have a clue when a fetus should be called a human being. That is for way smarter people then me to figure out. Nor should potential for life be a messuring stick. Every sperm and egg has 'potential' for life, but I am pretty sure not even the most pro-life person would argue that unfertalized eggs are 'human'.
I am not pro-life because of any religious belief. In fact there are cases that I think a person should be able to have an abortion. However, for the majority .. I do not believe that abortion is right. A good portion of the abortions are done because the child would be an inconvience or wasn't planned. So to speak, they do the crime and don't want to do the time. Which is not a reason to end a life.
Now again, lets not argue semantics. If the fetus was allowed to continue to live, it would develop into a human. Sure you can 'justify' it however you want, but it would be the same as killing a child that just has been born. At least to me. Others may see it however they wish.
There are two exceptions I personally have no issue with. Rape and the pregnancy endangering the mothers life. I have a personal vendetta against rape and rapist, though. No it is not the childs fault, but it would be a constant reminder to the victim AND potentially cause mental health issues that could not only endanger the child once born, but the mother as well.
____________
Message received.
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