|
|
Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
|
posted July 13, 2009 09:19 AM |
|
|
Again Elodin it is a matter of perspective. Since we people who are considered religious do not want people to be able to force their views on us (as discussed in the thread that Jolly started) we have no right to force our views on them. Its as wrong as them telling us we can not teach our children our ways. A double standard if you will.
I may disagree with you on when a life is a life, and I may even disagree with you on the issue of rape, but I do agree on that people should not just terminate a pregnacy just because it is not conveinent. These orginizations that actively go out and destroy clinics, kill doctors, and such are WRONG in my opinion. Picket if you want, that is a right we have, but killing to protect life is a bit backwards.
Let me ask you a question, however. A woman is raped, becomes pregnant, and every day sinks lower and lower into depression. Every time she looks at the child, she is going to hate the child because it reminds her of the horrible event. Just remember people do not think like you..now here is the question. Are you going to take responsibility if, in her depression, she kills the child after it is born? Of course not.
You say the child does nothing to the woman, but that is not correct. It is a reminder. Though innocent itself, every day it reminds her of a horrible, traumatic event. Unfortunately it is something that somebody has never been raped can really understand. They can sympothize, they can empothize, but they really can not ever understand. Rape does not only affect the physical body, or the mind, but the very soul of a person. You have to be very strong to overcome it, very very strong. Having a constant reminder, no matter how innocent, can cause this person to not be able to move on..
Which is not good for the person, for the child, or for society..
____________
Message received.
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted July 13, 2009 09:42 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Bearing a child will not ruin her life. When she has the child she can give it up for adoption. There are adoption agencies that will pay the medical expenses if she agrees to have the child rather than abort it.
Sorry mister wiseguy, but how do you know. Have you tried to carry an unwanted child in your womb and then giving birth to it knowing you want to give it up?
No, I didn't think so. Neither have I, but that's why I look to the oppinions of people who have either tried it, or people who work with this kind of stuff, and I know what they say.
Quote:
I fin the "child having a bad childhood" argument strange. I find the "ruining the child's life" part of your argument strange. Are you saying unwanted children are better off dead?
In some cases, yes. I think a lot of unwanted children grow into miserable childhoods that lead to miserable lives. Not all of them, but a lot of them do. Sorry, but who are we to condemn them to such a situation - isn't that more evil, even if there's a chance it may turn out ok? I think it is, and please accept my right to think so.
And about this thing with "being better off dead". You do know that when you make an abortion within 12th week, the child is never really an actual child, it's not alive, and it certainly has no concience. So it's not like you take anything from anybody by not making the pregnancy go through - it's not like there's a limitation on the number of children available, and each time we make an abortion, someone else has got to pass on their chance to have one.
And just think about all the innocent children you kill each time you have an ejaculation. I hope you don't masturbate, because that's killing 100.000's of children in one blow. 
____________
What will happen now?
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted July 13, 2009 11:01 AM |
|
|
Well said Alci.
Elodin, I hope you're against contraception. I really do.
|
|
angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
|
|
posted July 13, 2009 12:42 PM |
|
|
Quote:
I hope you don't masturbate,...
Isn't masturbating a sin?
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
|
|
Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
|
|
posted July 13, 2009 12:49 PM |
|
|
Yep, or at least in a lot of the various religious groups. So is fantasizing about anybody you are not married to.
I am kinda conflicted on some aspects though. Like Stem Cell research. All the potential good this could bring weighed against my belief that all human life is sacred. Of course, there is the fact I am not POSITIVE when a fertalized egg becomes life..but that seems like arguing semantics...
Just like I am not a vegetarian or Vegan, but think we should deffinately treat our pets and livestock MUCH better. (Too far off topic here, will be happy to discuss this in another thread though).
____________
Message received.
|
|
stankelbenet
Adventuring Hero
bringer of nostalgia & darknes
|
|
posted July 13, 2009 01:35 PM |
|
|
Quote:
In some cases, yes. I think a lot of unwanted children grow into miserable childhoods that lead to miserable lives. Not all of them, but a lot of them do. Sorry, but who are we to condemn them to such a situation - isn't that more evil, even if there's a chance it may turn out ok? I think it is, and please accept my right to think so.
I accept your right to think so, but if we are allowed to kill people, because we think their life is miserable, where wouldn't it end?Quote:
And just think about all the innocent children you kill each time you have an ejaculation. I hope you don't masturbate, because that's killing 100.000's of children in one blow.
Nevertheless fertilizing an egg kills 99.999 of potential children .
Discussing abortion is just hard. I actually don't know where to stand. On one hand one life is a life no matter when it will be born. An abortion today is a kill in the future.
On the other hand if we think this way sperm cells die along with potential lives. We do have the technology(as far as I know) to make all these fertilize eggs inside small containers and grow to become human lives, but where would that end? How many months before the earth is overpopulated and the economy is ruined and the environment went the same and etc...
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted July 13, 2009 02:30 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
In some cases, yes. I think a lot of unwanted children grow into miserable childhoods that lead to miserable lives. Not all of them, but a lot of them do. Sorry, but who are we to condemn them to such a situation - isn't that more evil, even if there's a chance it may turn out ok? I think it is, and please accept my right to think so.
I accept your right to think so, but if we are allowed to kill people, because we think their life is miserable, where wouldn't it end?
Still ... it's not a person we're talking about. It's a <12 weeks old fetal. There is a very significant difference.
____________
What will happen now?
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted July 13, 2009 03:12 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Sorry mister wiseguy, but how do you know. Have you tried to carry an unwanted child in your womb and then giving birth to it knowing you want to give it up?
Ridiculous question. There are many "pro-life" mothers too. Not to mention that there's an amount of bias. I mean, you don't let a cop who just lost his brother to a criminal investigate it officially either, even though "he knows best" how it is to lose someone to a criminal (or rather, biased). You have to stay neutral and objective mate.
(and I am not pro-life, I am just pro-consequences and punishment and pro-innocent-life so to speak)
Quote:
And just think about all the innocent children you kill each time you have an ejaculation. I hope you don't masturbate, because that's killing 100.000's of children in one blow.
Well I don't, but that doesn't matter. And this is why this entire thread is pointless. Because people never listen.
Sperm has your DNA, sperm is not separate from you, and sperm is not alive (because it doesn't do anything by itself). If I hear one more time this comparison I'm gonna classify it as "repeated arguments" thread forever.
As for a woman having her period, even if that were true (though again, since this is a complicated topic (conception and life and whatever), let's just leave it at that), murder must be intentional, with intent. Unless she did it on purpose or helped herself have it in some way, how can she be guilty?
Really please try to counter these arguments instead of resorting to reduce them to absurdity but completely off track.
Quote:
Still ... it's not a person we're talking about. It's a <12 weeks old fetal. There is a very significant difference.
No there is no difference in personhood, just in development.
As you know, everyone is different, some are more handicapped than others etc... so how do you define "person"?
____________
The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
|
|
angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
|
|
posted July 13, 2009 03:22 PM |
|
|
Quote:
And this is why this entire thread is pointless. Because people never listen...
Then please...please...do us a favour and stay out!
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted July 13, 2009 03:25 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
And this is why this entire thread is pointless. Because people never listen...
Then please...please...do us a favour and stay out!
First, I would like to see anyone even remotely on topic for what has been said about conception, life, and whatever.
It's not that they are wrong at all, but they do not even come close to what we (the non-abortion group I mean) claim, so it's like we talk with argument A, and they come with B which has nothing to do with A. They may have valid points, but it isn't even a discussion if we just keep talking on different things.
____________
The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
|
|
Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
|
|
posted July 13, 2009 03:30 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Again Elodin it is a matter of perspective. Since we people who are considered religious do not want people to be able to force their views on us (as discussed in the thread that Jolly started) we have no right to force our views on them. Its as wrong as them telling us we can not teach our children our ways. A double standard if you will.
Where did I present a religious viewpoint? I presented science. It is a scientific fact that life begins at conception. I showed that. I mentioned nothing religious.
I never advocated forcing a religious viewpoint on anyone. It was JJ who wanted to force his religion to be taught to all children.
Quote:
Picket if you want, that is a right we have, but killing to protect life is a bit backwards.
Where did that come from? I've always condemned violence against abortion doctors and abortion mills. Please don't imply that I support violence because I don't.
Quote:
Let me ask you a question, however. A woman is raped, becomes pregnant, and every day sinks lower and lower into depression. Every time she looks at the child, she is going to hate the child because it reminds her of the horrible event. Just remember people do not think like you..now here is the question. Are you going to take responsibility if, in her depression, she kills the child after it is born? Of course not
No, why should I take responsibility for the woman? I did not rape her.
Like I said, she should be provided with psychological resources to help her deal with the rape. Abortion can also result in Post Abortion Syndrome that can lead to depression.
http://postabortionsyndrome.org/
Are you going to take responsibility for teens who commit suicide after an abortion since you say they should be legal?
Quote:
You say the child does nothing to the woman, but that is not correct.
Yes it is. Let me be more specific so my since you evidently misunderstood what I said. The child is taking no actions against her. Is that better? The child did not rape her. The child is not being mean to her. The child is doing nothing that the child is not supposed to do. The child is innocently growing inside her. The child is exactly where every child is during this stage of the human life cycle.
It is murder to deliberatly kill the known innocent child unless the life of the mother is at risk.
You can't run and hide from anything that caused stress or trauma in your life. You have to face it head on. Like I said,
alcibiades
Quote:
Sorry mister wiseguy,
Please don't start insulting me because:
1) You are a moderator
2) I'll get called down if I respond to provocation.
I really don't mind when anyone starts ramping up the language if I'm allowed to ramp up my language too, but I'm not. The politically incorrect debater is not allowed to do that. So I'd thank you for keeping everything on an even playing field.
Quote:
Have you tried to carry an unwanted child in your womb and then giving birth to it knowing you want to give it up?
No, I have obviously never been pregnant. But I don't have to have been pregnant to know the scientific fact that the fetus is a human life.
Oh, I've looked at at the opinions of others too. I just don't agree with opinions that say a woman has a right to murder her baby.
Quote:
In some cases, yes
Oh my! I didn't think you would actually say unwanted children are better off dead even with your "in some cases" qualifier.
Quote:
I think a lot of unwanted children grow into miserable childhoods that lead to miserable lives
The child can run away if he is miserable. He can tell the judge that he is miserable living there and get adopted by someone who will love him.
Don't bash in a child's head because they might possibly be miserable someday.
Oh are you going to start bashing in the heads of other people you think might possibly live a miserable life too? "Hmmmmm, he I see that couple arguing. They look pretty miserable to me. Think I'll just kill 'em." "Hmmmm Susan failed that math test. I'm sure she's' going to be miserable. Let's just kill her." Are you going to establish a "potential miserable index" to determine who to kill?
Quote:
Sorry, but who are we to condemn them to such a situation - isn't that more evil, even if there's a chance it may turn out ok?
No, it is not evil to condemn murder. What is evil is to say murder is ok. Murder is never "in the best interest of the child."
Quote:
I think it is, and please accept my right to think so.
You have the right to think and say that murdering the child is ok. I have the right to think and say that murdering the child is not ok.
Quote:
And about this thing with "being better off dead". You do know that when you make an abortion within 12th week, the child is never really an actual child, it's not alive, and it certainly has no concience
Sorry, but your claim is not scientifically valid.
The cells of dead things don't multiply. This tells us the fetus is alive.
The fetus has unique human DNA that differs from that of the mother. This tells us that the fetus is not only alive but is a unique human life.
Quote:
So it's not like you take anything from anybody by not making the pregnancy go through - it's not like there's a limitation on the number of children available, and each time we make an abortion, someone else has got to pass on their chance to have one.
Gee wizz dude, are you saying that we can start bashing the heads of 6 year olds because we can always make another one?
Quote:
And just think about all the innocent children you kill each time you have an ejaculation. I hope you don't masturbate, because that's killing 100.000's of children in one blow
Neither a sperm cell nor an unfertilized egg is a human life. A sperm cell is a specific type of cell. A sperm will never grow into an adult. It takes an egg and sperm to produce a human life. Each donates half of the chromosomes.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted July 13, 2009 03:39 PM |
|
|
Quote:
(and I am not pro-life, I am just pro-consequences and punishment and pro-innocent-life so to speak)
What's "innocent life" you are pro and what makes a life guilty as opposed to innocent?
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted July 13, 2009 03:45 PM |
|
Edited by TheDeath at 15:46, 13 Jul 2009.
|
Well innocent takes a while to define, but for the case at hand, something that hasn't done anything must always be innocent (i.e fetus)
Also IMO (not Elodin's) applies to the mother in case of rape, where the guilt is 100% on the rapist. Also not just rape but any "forced insemination" or whatever you want to call it.
____________
The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted July 13, 2009 04:05 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Well innocent takes a while to define, but for the case at hand, something that hasn't done anything must always be innocent (i.e fetus)
Also IMO (not Elodin's) applies to the mother in case of rape, where the guilt is 100% on the rapist. Also not just rape but any "forced insemination" or whatever you want to call it.
Not true. All humans are guilty of the original sin, which is the reason why there is a problem with children - on one hand they have to absolved from it to go to heaven, but on the other they didn't do anything that would justify a penalty.
In any case and no matter how you would define it, you'd have to explain why "innocent" life was better than "plain life", and if it wasn't why you come up with something like that.
Moreover you'd have to explain why in case of a rape the mother's innocence somehow is weighing heavier than that of the fetus.
|
|
DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
|
|
posted July 13, 2009 04:45 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Unless she did it on purpose or helped herself have it in some way, how can she be guilty?
Unintentional murder is called manslaughter and what do you mean she didn't do anything? She chose the wrong time to conceive a child! How dare she not have this all planned out?
And I love how Elodin twists words around here. We never said killing children is okay, that's putting words in my mouth. I said it's okay for a woman to choose whether she want to give time, resources and emotional effort into this. If a fetus could be transplanted, I'd be all for it, but the not-yet-human dies when it's separated from its host body. Cells that act independently from the host body can also be called a tumor by the way...
I'd love to hear that one day: "Save the tumors!"
____________
If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted July 13, 2009 05:54 PM |
|
|
|
Elodin, so, are you against contraception?
|
|
Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
|
|
posted July 13, 2009 06:01 PM |
|
Edited by Elodin at 18:09, 13 Jul 2009.
|
Quote:
Unintentional murder is called manslaughter and what do you mean she didn't do anything? She chose the wrong time to conceive a child! How dare she not have this all planned out?
If the woman did nothing to cause the miscarriage she can hardly be faulted. To be guilty of manslaughter you have to have been at fault in the death in some way.
Now if she was boozing it up or snorting coke, yeah, she is guilty.
Quote:
And I love how Elodin twists words around here.
Examining my response to your previous post I see no such thing.
You were seeming to make the argument that since miscarriages occur it is ok to have abortions. I said people die at all different ages so a miscarriage does not justify murdering the life in her womb.
And then you called a fetus a parasite. I'll refrain from expressing exactly what I think about that because I'd probably get -QP.
And now you imply that the fetus is a tumor. Another.....less than accurate statement that I think is just designed to provoke pro-lifers.
Oh, your "not yet human" comment. It seems you have no interest in science, eh? The fetus is growing (and so alive) and has unique human DNA (and so is a unique human life.)
Really, why don't you just say "I don't care about the scientific facts. Every woman should be allowed to kill the human life in her womb." Because you can't deny that the fetus is human life. Not scientifically.
What you guys "on the other side" are going to have to do is to come up with a way to justify killing a known innocent human life because science is against you on your claim the fetus is not a human life.
Edit:
Quote:
Elodin, so, are you against contraception?
I am not opposed to contraception methods that don't murder a fertilized egg. If it prevents conception is does not kill a human life.
Edit 2:
Quote:
Not true. All humans are guilty of the original sin, which is the reason why there is a problem with children - on one hand they have to absolved from it to go to heaven, but on the other they didn't do anything that would justify a penalty.
In any case and no matter how you would define it, you'd have to explain why "innocent" life was better than "plain life", and if it wasn't why you come up with something like that.
Moreover you'd have to explain why in case of a rape the mother's innocence somehow is weighing heavier than that of the fetus.
Actually I disagree with you about children (not having reached the age of accountability) having to be absolved of sin to go to heaven. But this is not the thread to discuss that.
In any event, a child in the womb has not committed sin and is innocent. He has done nothing to deserve being killed. It is quite appropriate to say an unborn child is innocent.
In rape the question is does the woman have the right to kill an innocent unborn life just becasue somebody else raped her.
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted July 13, 2009 06:19 PM |
|
|
Shame. I thought you're a real pro-life, not another person who fights fiercely for unborn lives but allows denying it as much as people wish. What kind of traditional Christian are you if you don't agree with those "traditional Christian" principles? NO CONTRACEPTION should be also your rule..
Nothing more to discuss then.
|
|
Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
|
|
posted July 13, 2009 06:28 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Shame. I thought you're a real pro-life, not another person who fights fiercely for unborn lives but allows denying it as much as people wish. What kind of traditional Christian are you if you don't agree with those "traditional Christian" principles? NO CONTRACEPTION should be also your rule..
Nothing more to discuss then.
I am a real pro-lifer.
The Bible does not forbid contraception. Neither an egg nor a sperm is a human life so human life is not destroyed if conception is prevented.
And I am not the one bringing religion into the discussion...
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted July 13, 2009 06:29 PM |
|
|
Elodin:
You say a fetus is alive because its cells are dividing. Would you then say that a virus is also alive?
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
| |
|
|
This thread is pages long: 
