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Mytical
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posted July 14, 2009 11:15 AM |
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Edited by Mytical at 11:20, 14 Jul 2009.
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So a single cell is 'human'? How about 2 or 4? 8? 16? Where exactly does your 'science' say that it is human?
It is not 'human' just because the cells divide. Or any fetus of any species can be called 'human'.
It is not 'human' just because it is cells inside of a human. Or Cancer, Tumors, Sperm, Eggs, and even parasites can be called 'human'.
It is not alive just because it is cells dividing in a human. Or the cancer, tumor can be called 'alive'.
It is not human just because of DNA. A cancer, tumor, sperm, eggs, etc have the same DNA as the person.
Edit : Just in case there is some confusion. A cancer has the same DNA as the person it is in, it's cells multiply, and it can exsist inside a human. So tell me the cancer is 'human'. Oh yeah and it is made up of 'living' cells.
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angelito
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posted July 14, 2009 11:20 AM |
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Edited by angelito at 13:44, 14 Jul 2009.
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Quote:
I guess that would depend on where you live. Suicide is illegal in many places.
Can you name any places? And what is the punishment for suiciders? Death penalty?...come on...
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Mytical
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posted July 14, 2009 11:29 AM |
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Actually they are right, as backwards as it seems. If somebody attempts suicide and fails, they can be charged with a crime. At least I know there was a time this was true (In America). Just like Assisted Sucide is now a crime.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 14, 2009 11:36 AM |
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As far as I know suicide isn't a criminal act in the US currently. In no state. Neither is it in Germany or Britain.
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antipaladin
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posted July 14, 2009 12:24 PM |
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It could be an act of insanity.
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Mytical
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posted July 14, 2009 12:36 PM |
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Ok lets try to get back on track  . Here is a link (though it is in wikipedia so...) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_views_of_suicide
There are always exceptions to every rule, so I really don't find it too odd that there be one for something like Abortion. We should really take into consideration extenuating circumstances and it be delt with on a case by case basis. Ultimately, however, the person who does do this will have to live with their decision for the rest of their life. While abortion does have a psychological effect, however, carrying a child from rape would have 100x worse to MOST rape victims.
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antipaladin
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posted July 14, 2009 12:43 PM |
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Agreed. the psychological impact on the child and the mother to be hating the child being a product of rape.. none the less will couse stress to child and mother,when "who's my father" questions arises at adolescence.
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Elodin
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posted July 14, 2009 05:16 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 17:26, 14 Jul 2009.
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So a single cell is 'human'? How about 2 or 4? 8? 16? Where exactly does your 'science' say that it is human?
The HUMAN DNA proves it is human. Do you claim the product of human sex could result in a cow or pig? Human reproduction. Reproduce human.
If the number of cells determines humanity is someone who is bigger than another person more human than the average Joe? What about petite women? are they less human than a 7 foot 6 inch basketball player?
Comparing a fetus to a cancer or tumor shows a lack of understanding of human reproduction and of cell function and structure. It also disrespect humanity.
The human reproductive processes result in a new genetically unique living human being. The human being is a single cell at the beginning of the human life cycle.
The fetus will continue to grow and go through the various stages of the human life cycle, being born, becoming a toddler, adolescent, ect, until it dies.
Oh, if you claim the organism that is a product of human conception is not human, what is it and why does it have human DNA?
Now, lets talk about cells. The human body develops specialized cells. What cell becomes what kind of cell (skin, kidney cell, bone cell, ect) depends on which genes are read. If a gene is missing or is misread or read out of sequence the cell could become cancerous.
A cancer in a human are cells gone bad. The cancer was not the product of human sex. The cancer in a human is a mutated part of a human.
Oh, as I've said many many times, it takes an egg and a sperm to produce a human life. Each contributes one half of the chromosomes. Each is a specialized human cell (see discussion of cell specialization above.)
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It is not alive just because it is cells dividing in a human. Or the cancer, tumor can be called 'alive'.
Errrr....you are saying cells in living humans are not alive? Yes, the cancer is alive. But it is not a human life. The cancer is mutated living cells. The cancer is part of a living being, not a separate living being. The cells of dead things can't multiply.
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There are always exceptions to every rule, so I really don't find it too odd that there be one for something like Abortion. We should really take into consideration extenuating circumstances and it be delt with on a case by case basis. Ultimately, however, the person who does do this will have to live with their decision for the rest of their life. While abortion does have a psychological effect, however, carrying a child from rape would have 100x worse to MOST rape victims.
I don't agree that a human should be killed just because his father is a rapist.
If the unborn baby endangers the life of the mother and a C-section can't be done, they it is self defense. Otherwise it is murder.
No on should be able to kill another human life just because they don't want that life to exist or because that life reminds them of something someone else did to them.
Yeah, the mother making the decision will to kill the baby will have to live with it but the baby will have to die with it. The innocent human life had no choice. The mother's choice for him to die was forced on him. That doesn't make Mommy a very loving person.
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Agreed. the psychological impact on the child and the mother to be hating the child being a product of rape.. none the less will couse stress to child and mother,when "who's my father" questions arises at adolescence.
So mothers who can't answer the "who's my Dad" question should kill the kid?
I think being murdered is worse than a little stress.
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baklava
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posted July 14, 2009 05:21 PM |
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I left this thread 5 pages ago.
Now I clicked out of curiosity and found the exact same post as 10 pages away from here xD
Is no one really having second thoughts about the fruitfulness of this discussion?
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alcibiades
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posted July 14, 2009 05:25 PM |
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Is no one really having second thoughts about the fruitfulness of this discussion?
Only first thoughts, which made me leave - haven't really questioned that decision since.
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mvassilev
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posted July 14, 2009 05:50 PM |
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I think there's a difference between the biological definition of "alive" and the social one.
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TheDeath
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posted July 14, 2009 09:01 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 21:04, 14 Jul 2009.
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@ Death
Why don't you start reading the posts you are commenting on? If you think that my examples were all about rape then you can't have read the post at all.
Moreover you are not answering questions, if people ask them. I wouldn't call that discussing.
I agree with angelito. There isn't really much more to say about this.
I answered the questions. You asked why I place the fetus more innocent than a 40-year-old who didn't do anything in her life. I don't. When she does the ABORTION she becomes guilty, not before, and I already explained that.
Let me put it like this: if she was paralyzed 9 months like the fetus is, she would be completely innocent. But she isn't, she does something. It's called abortion. ACTIONS put GUILT.
Then you asked about the 'consequences' and I said that they shouldn't matter in a fair, lawful viewpoint. If 2 dudes kill 10 people each, and imprisoning one of them would be ok while imprisoning the other would lead to something bad (let's say he has a brother in the mafia who's gonna take revenge), does that mean you should only imprison the first one because of the consequences? How is that FAIR? It's subjectively morally based, and I don't deal with that. Both did the same crime, both GET THE SAME treatment. Consequences or not, it's fair.
Then again you asked about carrying the burden and I already answered that. She wouldn't, if it wasn't her fault, the rapist would get all charges even if she aborts. If it was her fault, then why would it be unfair for her to carry the burden?
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And what argument did you have 25 years ago, where no knowledge about DNA was present?
Personally, I would use it, but "blind" people who would not take my arguments would find out they were wrong 25 years later, and the problem is, they would get away with it.
The FACT is that DNA now exists. The people 25 years ago who would deny my arguments that a fetus is human because of something like that would be wrong. The irony is that they always get away with it, and I'm not talking specifically about abortion. Stubborn scientists always say "Well we had no idea before..." to "get away" with this some years later, but THEY actually HAD a freaking idea since someone told them/warned them/whatever.
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It is not 'human' just because the cells divide. Or any fetus of any species can be called 'human'.
It is not 'human' just because it is cells inside of a human. Or Cancer, Tumors, Sperm, Eggs, and even parasites can be called 'human'.
It is not alive just because it is cells dividing in a human. Or the cancer, tumor can be called 'alive'.
It is not human just because of DNA. A cancer, tumor, sperm, eggs, etc have the same DNA as the person.
Geez people, I don't know what is so hard to get 
Here's a simple enumeration of logical clauses:
CLAUSE 1: If cells divide actively, then the organism is alive.
CLAUSE 2: If the cells have human DNA (within a tolerance), then they are human.
CONCLUSION: Cells with HUMAN DNA and which DIVIDE are ALIVE HUMANS.
Of course cancer is human -- I mean, it is part of your body just like your heart is. Tumor, same thing. They have slightly altered DNA that isn't in the body's design and only happens in certain situations (damaging one's body, with radiation or whatever). This argument can be used to say "I cut off my arm, so the DNA says I have an arm, but my arm isn't there! Therefore DNA is wrong" which is completely ridiculous. Same with cancer/tumor/whatever.
Cancer is human, but it is YOU, it has YOUR DNA, it is not a separate entity.
A fetus, however, is.
I seriously don't see what is so hard to get. At least please discuss about this than going in circles.
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DagothGares
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posted July 14, 2009 09:06 PM |
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so twins from one egg cell are not separate?
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TheDeath
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posted July 14, 2009 09:08 PM |
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Quote:
so twins from one egg cell are not separate?
That can be made more difficult for conjoined twins. LOL
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DagothGares
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posted July 14, 2009 09:09 PM |
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But twins who are not conjoined and are from from one egg cell have the same DNA, so I'm just applying your logic here
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TheDeath
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posted July 14, 2009 09:14 PM |
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They would be clones
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DagothGares
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posted July 14, 2009 09:24 PM |
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You can say what you want, but their DNA is identical without having been cloned
They come from the same spermatozoid and egg cell, so their blueprints are identical, same gender, same bone structure, same everything. Of course, from birth they get different impressions, so their brain will form a bit differently, but that's about it, really.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 14, 2009 09:48 PM |
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Quote:
Let me put it like this: if she was paralyzed 9 months like the fetus is, she would be completely innocent. But she isn't, she does something. It's called abortion. ACTIONS put GUILT.
Yeah,so? It's her personal guilt. It's in her womb. No one can take it off her - it's her responsibility and hers alone and if she doesn't want it she doesn't want it.
I don't see that this is anyone's business. People argue about whether a fetus is life or not and why and when, but strangely enough noone seems to care when it somes to the life that is doublessly life, the starving, the sick, the handicapped, the abandoned, the forsaken, those who suffer abuse, violence, drinking and fighting parents, children selling drugs, being in gangs, working as hookers, being bought and sold - why don't you pro-lifers all make THAT your business and look for the living instead of talking about whether a fetus is life or not and blame and guilt and whether a girl raped by her father is guilty of murder when she aborts that fetus or whether it's maybe the father who is the murderer in that case or whether someone who had sex should bear the consequences (and suffer under the pregnancy as a penalty and who cares about what will happen with the child then).
UNICEF figures are 25.000 children are DYING PER DAY due to poverty worldwide. Nearly 800.000 children are reported MISSING in the US alone per year.
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Elodin
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posted July 14, 2009 09:53 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 22:03, 14 Jul 2009.
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Conjoined twins are individual human beings. Here is the proof.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkKWApOAG2g
@JJ
The fact that some children die of starvation does not justify murdering other children.
And you are wrong that no one cares about the "starving, the sick, the handicapped, the abandoned, the forsaken, those who suffer abuse, violence, drinking and fighting parents, children selling drugs, being in gangs, working as hookers, being bought and sold." Christians have many thousands of ministries to help those people.
In addition to helping those people we speak out on behalf of the innocent babies that are being murdered.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 14, 2009 10:50 PM |
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Let me add something here.
For a fetus there is only ONE person in the wide world who can make it live to grow to a child - and of course the pro-lifers have nothing better to do than pressure someone else to be that one which is very convenient since lifting the forefinger is all that's necessaey.
However, with living children EVERY person in the world can make one or more live to grow an adult - and strangely enough here they are not nearly as loud - if they would care for LIFE, wouldn't they actively do something? Adopt a child? organize to help children?
It seems awfully convenient to tell others what they have or have not to do, especially when it's only the others who CAN do it.
With 25 million children dying each year because of poverty there seems to be a awful lot of room for every pro-lifer to DO something for life instead of demanding things from others.
I mean, do you see protest marches before wall street, "don't let children starve and die"? At the Capitol, "Stop the trade with children" "Stop prostitution of children". Nope, that would be too political. Children starving, well, that's bad luck, right? Some are just born into a bad situation, but at least they ARE born, aren't they. But children aborted, that's different, that's personal sin. Best of all, you can put a finger on one person who's guilty, making things really easy.
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