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Kraken
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posted July 16, 2009 11:22 PM |
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Huh? You think pepole should be able to murder others just because they want to?
Umm... that's nothing what I said, it's not murder if the human is never born, and it's not just plain shooting or stabbing someone. Abortions should be Legal, because it's so much pain and stress getting Pregnant for a Women every day when she's Pregnant. And, what if they can't support the baby? What if they're in College or they don't have a job. You can't be successful if you have a baby when you're in High School, and it's just nonsense saying that's it's committing a bloody murder. If it was nonsense and murder than it wouldn't be illegal.
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TheDeath
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posted July 16, 2009 11:25 PM |
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If she got pregnant without being forced or raped, it's her damn fault. Why would I feel sympathy for her? I have much more sympathy for the fetus who has no choice whatsoever, in this case.
(obviously, the father must also support the fetus like I said, financially or otherwise, but the woman should be aware that only women can get pregnant though, blame nature).
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JollyJoker
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posted July 16, 2009 11:25 PM |
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Bla (Deleted because we are not talking about car accidents.
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Again, what are you talking about? What isn't whose choice?
Flushing the rest of the conceived cells or whatever it was you were talking about. 
Ah, oooook. So if a plane crashes we don't care, bad luck, bodies flushed through the toilet, names forgotten. Right.
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Fairness in justice? ARE YOU KIDDING? You just told me about how nature was unfair.
I'll tell you something about fairness in justice, if you don't want abortions. Forbid abortions, allow adoption, as it is, but make a law that will put every father of a child that is given to adoption into jail with forced hard labor for 1 year.
You have a very weird concept of fairness. Fairness must not make exceptions.
Umm, what? You mean, as in, be to blame for the death of another person, and die? Or be gay and go to hell? Or maybe be 9 months pregnant and take it like a girl or look at your girl being 9 months pregnant and pray for eveyone's deliverance?
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TheDeath
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posted July 16, 2009 11:32 PM |
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Ah, oooook. So if a plane crashes we don't care, bad luck, bodies flushed through the toilet, names forgotten. Right.
What the hell are you talking about? What has this got to do with punishment or the LAW?
You can care. I can care. But please tell me what it has to do with justice or the law?
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Umm, what? You mean, as in, be to blame for the death of another person, and die? Or be gay and go to hell? Or maybe be 9 months pregnant and take it like a girl or look at your girl being 9 months pregnant and pray for eveyone's deliverance?
The issue is because you look at abortion as "a special thing" or "an exception", which it is not.
The car accident is very suited. You refuse to comment on it because it's very close to the truth. In effect it does this:
1) The other person, not you, has no choice on getting paralyzed/hurt/whatever.
2) You then have total responsibility as to what you should do with that person, which you brought in that position (without the other person being able to make a choice).
...and CONSEQUENCES.
It is the same thing with abortion.
What I meant with "fairness" is that, if you convict someone of murder because he killed a soldier, it should make NO DIFFERENCE whatsoever to the punishment of someone else who killed a soldier that would have died in the war anyway. You brought up the starving children as an argument that "it is insignificant" (abortion), which again, is completely unfair and unjust, because justice doesn't make exceptions. Just like with the soldier, that "murder" may be less significant since he was going to get bombed in war anyway, but that doesn't mean the murderer should be convicted less. Where's justice?
(I disagree btw, abortion leads to more deaths than any other natural death or disease (not murder) combined).
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mvassilev
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posted July 16, 2009 11:41 PM |
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The situation with the car accident is different because the victim existed before it. The foetus, in contrast, does not exist before conception.
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TheDeath
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posted July 16, 2009 11:43 PM |
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Yes you already said this with the person in coma pages back. I still don't see why would it make a difference though.
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mvassilev
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posted July 16, 2009 11:49 PM |
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Because being alive from a social perspective and from a biological perspective are different things. From a social perspective, if it is not and was never able to interact, then it isn't alive. If someone is removed from society, then it has an interest in bringing him/her back. But if someone isn't a part of society to begin with, obviously that's different.
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TheDeath
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posted July 16, 2009 11:53 PM |
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Why the difference? Babies can hardly interact more than a fetus either.
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mvassilev
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posted July 16, 2009 11:58 PM |
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It doesn't matter. The fact is, they can interact. A non-viable foetus can't.
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TheDeath
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posted July 17, 2009 12:05 AM |
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The fact is, they can interact.
They only interact by being dependent on the mother or people around the baby. The fetus does so also, only that it is "hidden" inside her womb.
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Elodin
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posted July 17, 2009 12:12 AM |
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Huh? You think pepole should be able to murder others just because they want to?
Umm... that's nothing what I said, it's not murder if the human is never born, and it's not just plain shooting or stabbing someone. Abortions should be Legal, because it's so much pain and stress getting Pregnant for a Women every day when she's Pregnant. And, what if they can't support the baby? What if they're in College or they don't have a job. You can't be successful if you have a baby when you're in High School, and it's just nonsense saying that's it's committing a bloody murder. If it was nonsense and murder than it wouldn't be illegal.
Lol! So if she finds pregnancy a little uncomfortable, just kill the baby!!!!! Lol! You don't place much value on human life, do you?
The female body was designed to carry a baby in her womb. It is natural.
Oh, so now you are saying if she is poor she should be able to kill the baby? I guess you could justify driving through a poor neighborhood gunning down everyone because "they are better off dead than poor." Lol!!
Oh, you can have a baby in high school and still be "successful." Plenty of people have done it.
What is nonsense is saying killing a baby in the womb is not murder. Killing a known innocent human with premeditation is murder.
Oh, abortion was illegal in the US until liberal activist judges decided to make it leagal.
The biological fact is a fetus is a living human life. Try to justify murdering it all you want.
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Kraken
Famous Hero
I just love being elemental
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posted July 17, 2009 12:54 AM |
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Umm... no just no that's nothing what i've been saying. You need to pay attention. I'm not arguing with you, your not worth it.
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mvassilev
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posted July 17, 2009 01:30 AM |
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Death:
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They only interact by being dependent on the mother or people around the baby.
The fact is, a baby doesn't need to be constantly hooked up to the mother in order to function.
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The fetus does so also, only that it is "hidden" inside her womb.
Yeah, the womb - great medium for interaction.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 17, 2009 07:57 AM |
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As it is, Death, you don't even have an idea about justice, because justice is all about making exceptions or seeing the special case. Moreover, stop comparing things that are uncomparable. A fetus is no person. In no respect.
If a fetus is flushed through the toilet, does it get a name and a burial? Is it baptised? Nada.
If a plain crashes, are "remains" being identified by their names and get a burial, even if it's nothing more left than a couple of cells? Oh, yes.
How come if it's all the same? How come, that as soon as the woman is suspected to have been deliberately flushing the cells through the toilet it's now MURDER? Murder of what, a couple of cells?
You should ask yourself whether your attitude isn't the result of your general attitude towards sex. My impression is that you are viewing aborted fetusses somewhat like being collateral damage victims of drug-addicted maniacs or something.
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angelito
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posted July 17, 2009 06:16 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 18:16, 17 Jul 2009.
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The fact is, they can interact.
They only interact by being dependent on the mother or people around the baby. The fetus does so also, only that it is "hidden" inside her womb.
Lol...Someone who probably never had a baby in his arms talks....incredible.
You would be surprised how much a baby can interact....in opposit to a 3 week old cell collection....
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Elodin
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posted July 17, 2009 07:43 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 19:44, 17 Jul 2009.
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If a fetus is flushed through the toilet, does it get a name and a burial?
If a man is murdered and buried in the desert and never is his body found did he die? Is he still human? Was he still murdered?
Yes.
The fact that someone did not name a baby or flushed a baby down a toilet does not mean the baby is not human. The fetus is the product of human conception and has human DNA. He is human, not a dog or cat.
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How come if it's all the same? How come, that as soon as the woman is suspected to have been deliberately flushing the cells through the toilet it's now MURDER? Murder of what, a couple of cells?
No, it is murder of a human life. If the number of cells is what makes a person human then the larger one's body is the more human he is and the smaller one's body is the less human he is.
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Lol...Someone who probably never had a baby in his arms talks....incredible.
You would be surprised how much a baby can interact....in opposit to a 3 week old cell collection....
So now a person in a coma is not human. What, he ceases to be human when he enters a coma and regains humanness when he comes out of a coma and loses it agains if he lapses back into a coma. Heh.
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DagothGares
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posted July 17, 2009 07:49 PM |
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His human potential is reduced to zero, so...
In a way, yes...
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angelito
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posted July 17, 2009 08:15 PM |
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@Elodin
Your way of arguing makes discussions pointless. Why the heck do you ALWAYS try to find a comparisson? Why not just stay where we are? We are NOT talking about a coma patient, we are talking about a 3 week old cell collection.
Stop talking about ferraris when our current issue is a mercedes. If you can't find a right argument, then just leave it. We are not talking about cars in general. No. We are ONLY talking about mercedes.
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Elodin
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posted July 17, 2009 08:36 PM |
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@Elodin
Your way of arguing makes discussions pointless. Why the heck do you ALWAYS try to find a comparisson? Why not just stay where we are? We are NOT talking about a coma patient, we are talking about a 3 week old cell collection.
Stop talking about ferraris when our current issue is a mercedes. If you can't find a right argument, then just leave it. We are not talking about cars in general. No. We are ONLY talking about mercedes.
You claimed humanness is related to the ability to interact with society. I showed that your position is illogical.
I have previously shown that fetus is the product of human conception and has human DNA. The fetus is therefore a human life. (The cells are multiplying so the fetus has to be alive.)
Yes, in the human life cycle we all start off as a single cell organism. That single cell is human and alive from a scientific point of view. Again, you are free to hold religious views that deny this.
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bixie
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my common sense is tingling!
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posted July 17, 2009 10:04 PM |
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You claimed humanness is related to the ability to interact with society. I showed that your position is illogical.
great, now we are arguing with spock!
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