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JollyJoker
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posted May 16, 2013 09:17 PM |
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@ Elodin
Simple question:
Why are you so intent on making something your business that is beyond even your theoretical ability to "care for"? In other words, why are you so adamantly caring ABOUT something you have no way caring FOR?
For a reason that seems to escape you, JJ. Morality.
Morality is why I care about people murdering young human organisms. As a moral being who loves other people I don't think such murders are ok or that I should turn a blind eye to it.
There are pleny of people who are ready and willing to adopt unwanted children. A child being unwanted is not a reason to murder the child.
I can't remember the last time anyone adopted an unwanted 3 month old fetus, but I'm sure you will tell me.
Alsoif there are plenty of people willing to adopt unwanted CHILDREN - which we are not talkiong about: why are the orphan homes full then?
But the best is your so called morality. It's not morality, you are talking about. It's wise-cracking arrogance. Because it's physically impossible for you to ever be in that situation yourself, and judging things you are prevented from ever coming into the situation to have to make a decision, is ... something that should be punished somehow for the sheer hipocrisy that comes with it.
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You know that many people have a saying that if you prevent the death of a person, that person and everything he/she does is YOUR responsibility because of that.
Yes, there are certainly irrational people out there. Me, I'd say something else. If you say it is ok for a parent to kill their child you are as guilty of murder as they are if they kill their child.
I agree with you, but that's not what we are talking about here, sorry. I don't see why you always stray off-topic here.
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So are you prepared to take responsibility for
a) all pregnant women who would want to abort, but don't because of pro-life propaganda?
b) all children that are born due to that?
No, who would be so loony as to think I would have the ability to provide for the millions of babies who are murdered via abortion? There are numerous agencies who will help unwed mothers and their children and who will help find a loving home for children who are not wanted by unloving parents.
Then why don't you shut the hell up and leave it to said agencies to speak?
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If not - why don't you just shut the hell up about something that you have no business to make your business?
As always, you make rather bizare and irrational statements.
Oh, something new. Thanks.
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This is a forum that we are posting in, a forum for real world discussion. This thread is about discussing abortion. Therefore it is appropriate to discuss abortion in this thread. Are you still following me, JJ?
Therefore, it is appropriate to discuss abortion in the thread. Do you see how a rational person can use information to reach a rational conclusion, JJ? A person does not have to be driven by emotion, they can THINK and make decisions based on rational thought instead.
I'm not even out there picketing in front of abortion clinics, though that would be moral for me to do as well. I'm typing in a forum designed to discuss such issues in a thread I did not create. There is no reason to be upset with me for doing so.
If we are discussing abortion - why are you telling stories about children and murdering them?
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Now, a question for you. If you want everyone else to shut up about abortion
Stop, right there - I don't. I want YOU to shut up about it because - go right back to the first point of this post. I hope I could make that clear now, brother.
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted May 16, 2013 09:32 PM |
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There is no morality when the argument is a fallacy in itself, and its being repeated when corned. Its that simple.
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JollyJoker
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 16, 2013 09:51 PM |
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Dude, I normally ignore you, but in this case:
Do you really think it's morality to judge a behaviour you are prevented from ever experiencing yourself?
For exanmple, how would you rate the statement of a person born a billionaire, ever been a billionaire and lie on his deathbed as a billionaire, that stealing food in order to prevent starving is immoral?
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 16, 2013 10:20 PM |
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JJ:
The "who will take care of them" angle isn't really relevant to whether abortion is ethical. It could be the case that no one would take care of a homeless person, but that doesn't mean you can kill homeless people.
And of course one can make moral judgments about actions or events one has not personally experienced. You look at the principles involved, and make a decision based on them.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted May 16, 2013 10:23 PM |
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Edited by Hobbit at 22:25, 16 May 2013.
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i have made a few very good posts in this thread. one of them was the most important post in the thread
You're so modest. 
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someone who hasn't murdered(maybe), judging someone who HAS.
But this someone CAN be in such situation. He can murder someone, so he can tell why he doesn't murder. Elodin can't get pregnant and that's the main problem - he's talking about bearing unwanted children while he has and will always have no idea what it actually is.
It would be moral to let the women decide whether it's easy to bear a child or not.
BTW - is there, on this thread, any female?
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The "who will take care of them" angle isn't really relevant to whether abortion is ethical.
Is this thread about if abortion is ethical or not really?
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 16, 2013 10:46 PM |
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JJ:
The "who will take care of them" angle isn't really relevant to whether abortion is ethical. It could be the case that no one would take care of a homeless person, but that doesn't mean you can kill homeless people.
No one said something about "ethical". Since when is the workd based on what's ethical?
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And of course one can make moral judgments about actions or events one has not personally experienced. You look at the principles involved, and make a decision based on them.
We are not talking about that. We are talking about things we CANNOT personally experience (because it's impossible).
The world would be a better place if people who have really no idea about the issue they are judging would for a change just shut the hell up, instead of feeling the necessity to enlighten the world.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 16, 2013 10:58 PM |
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Since the discussion is about the way the world should be (particularly regarding the legality of abortion), ethical concerns are very much relevant. Unless you want to say "This is current law, and it's right because it's current law", which would not be making the distinction between is and ought.
And we can make judgments about things that are impossible for us to do: a non-abortion example would be sports. I could never be good enough at any sport to play professionally, but that doesn't mean I can't make judgments about cheating in sports.
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted May 16, 2013 11:05 PM |
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Since the discussion is about the way the world should be (particularly regarding the legality of abortion), ethical concerns are very much relevant.
Most of abortionists are talking about abortion as something that shouldn't be done, but sometimes is necessary. So considering it by ethical concerns isn't really the case.
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And we can make judgments about things that are impossible for us to do: a non-abortion example would be sports.
Comparing abortion to anything non-abortion won't work.
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Horn of the
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 16, 2013 11:14 PM |
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Since the discussion is about the way the world should be (particularly regarding the legality of abortion), ethical concerns are very much relevant. Unless you want to say "This is current law, and it's right because it's current law", which would not be making the distinction between is and ought.
And we can make judgments about things that are impossible for us to do: a non-abortion example would be sports. I could never be good enough at any sport to play professionally, but that doesn't mean I can't make judgments about cheating in sports.
Ethical concerns are secondary to practical concerns.
Anyway, try the example of judging Angelina Jolie for letting her breasts remove. And everyone else in her situation. Would you say your opinion is relevant concerning that issue?
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 16, 2013 11:47 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 23:47, 16 May 2013.
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@Zenofex
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Yeah, most people try to persuade him that logic and facts aren't spawns of Satan but he's unshakable.
The problem of course is what the left considers logic and facts.
Leftist: I don't want my baby so it is ok for me to kill it. Who knows what it will be when it is born anyways! It could be an elephant, or maybe even a lion and then it could eat me alive!!!
Elodin: Ummmmmm. You do know that humans only give birth to humans, eh, so the baby will be human and pose no threat to you.
Leftist: LIAR!!!! LIIIIAAAAAAAAAR!!!!!!!! I said it might be an elephant or a lion so it might be!! Everything the left says is logical and factual by definition
Elodin: But according to science texts and common experience you are wrong.
Leftist: So what?!?!?!? Keep your religion out of this you evil perverted right-wing delusional theistic fanatical nutcase!!!!! It is not your business if I kill my baby anyways, moron!!!! Racist bigotted homophobic misogynistic lunatic!!!!
There, I've logically and factually proved you are wrong and now I'm going to kill my fifth baby!! Where are all these things coming from? Must be something in the water!!
Elodin: Uh.....you might want to take a biology class.
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted May 16, 2013 11:52 PM |
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LIAR!!!! LIIIIAAAAAAAAAR!!!!!!!!
Actually that's your favourite word, Elodin.
What, would you call me a liar now?
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 17, 2013 12:19 AM |
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I can't remember the last time anyone adopted an unwanted 3 month old fetus, but I'm sure you will tell me.
Alsoif there are plenty of people willing to adopt unwanted CHILDREN - which we are not talkiong about: why are the orphan homes full then?
Uhhhhh....some folks have come as close as possible to doing so. They make an agreement with the mother who does not want her baby and they pay all hospital bills, ect. Then when the kid is born the mom gives up her rights to the child and the couple who paid the bills adopt the kid.
For example:
Clicky
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Adoption: There is no cost to you if you choose adoption. In fact, pregnancy-related expenses are paid for by the adoptive family, which often include medical care and living expenses. Examples may include: rent, utilities, maternity clothing, food, prenatal vitamins and any other medical expenses not covered by your insurance or Medicaid. You will be able to speak with your adoption specialist about your specific needs.
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But the best is your so called morality. It's not morality, you are talking about.
Yeah, it is immoral to snuff out snuff out the life an in innocent young human just because the mother does not want him.
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It's wise-cracking arrogance. Because it's physically impossible for you to ever be in that situation yourself, and judging things you are prevented from ever coming into the situation to have to make a decision, is ... something that should be punished somehow for the sheer hipocrisy that comes with it.
You run your mouth dogmatically about everything and then condemn everyone else who expresses an opinion different from yours. Sounds like someone is a hypocrite all right, but it is not me.
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If we are discussing abortion - why are you telling stories about children and murdering them?
According to embryology an embryo is a human organism. A human child. Snuffing out that innocent young human is murder, JJ.
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Now, a question for you. If you want everyone else to shut up about abortion
Stop, right there - I don't. I want YOU to shut up about it because - go right back to the first point of this post. I hope I could make that clear now, brother.
Yes, the extreme left is the most intolerant group of people on the planet. The "tolerate" one view and one view only--their own.
Adoption is the loving choice of a parent. Abortion is the selfish, immoral killing of a baby. Unless of course the mother's life is in danger.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 17, 2013 12:23 AM |
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Hobbit:
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Most of abortionists are talking about abortion as something that shouldn't be done, but sometimes is necessary. So considering it by ethical concerns isn't really the case.
If it shouldn't be done, then it shouldn't be done. If it's necessary - necessary for what? If whatever it's necessary for is good (or better than its negative effects), then it should be done. I don't know what "shouldn't be done, but sometimes is necessary" means. Abortion is necessary for some women to not carry fetuses they don't want. Is that a good result? Yes. (Even opponents of abortion should agree that this by itself is a good consequence.) Then let's look at the other effect of abortion - the destruction of the fetus. Is that a good result? That's the point of debate, between pro-choice people (who think it's neutral) and pro-life people (who think it's bad). If a fetus is a human being that possesses rights, destroying it against its will is murder, a violation of its rights, and therefore bad. If it's just human tissue that is likely to grow into a human possessing rights, then destroying it is fine and not murder. These are all very much ethical questions.
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Comparing abortion to anything non-abortion won't work.
Why not? What's unique about abortion?
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Eccentric Opinion
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted May 17, 2013 01:24 AM |
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If it shouldn't be done, then it shouldn't be done.
Sorry, life isn't all black and white. Abortion is still a choice, not the solution. There is no solution when we're talking about what should we do with unwanted children.
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What's unique about abortion?
I've never heard of any woman who had abortion comparing it to anything else but an abortion. It seems like it's very unique.
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 17, 2013 01:38 AM |
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Hobbit:
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life isn't all black and white
That's not an explanation.Quote:
Abortion is still a choice, not the solution. There is no solution when we're talking about what should we do with unwanted children.
Of course abortion is a solution (and a choice). The question is, is it a good solution? It gets rid of unwanted children, but what other consequences does it have? Are the other consequences acceptable? That's what the debate is about.Quote:
I've never heard of any woman who had abortion comparing it to anything else but an abortion. It seems like it's very unique.
That doesn't mean that the moral principles involved are unique. The same principles are in effect in many different situations, even if people don't explicitly invoke them.
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Eccentric Opinion
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 17, 2013 02:51 AM |
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Edited by artu at 03:23, 17 May 2013.
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@Zenofex
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Yeah, most people try to persuade him that logic and facts aren't spawns of Satan but he's unshakable.
The problem of course is what the left considers logic and facts.
Leftist: I don't want my baby so it is ok for me to kill it. Who knows what it will be when it is born anyways! It could be an elephant, or maybe even a lion and then it could eat me alive!!!
Elodin: Ummmmmm. You do know that humans only give birth to humans, eh, so the baby will be human and pose no threat to you.
Leftist: LIAR!!!! LIIIIAAAAAAAAAR!!!!!!!! I said it might be an elephant or a lion so it might be!! Everything the left says is logical and factual by definition
Elodin: But according to science texts and common experience you are wrong.
Leftist: So what?!?!?!? Keep your religion out of this you evil perverted right-wing delusional theistic fanatical nutcase!!!!! It is not your business if I kill my baby anyways, moron!!!! Racist bigotted homophobic misogynistic lunatic!!!!
There, I've logically and factually proved you are wrong and now I'm going to kill my fifth baby!! Where are all these things coming from? Must be something in the water!!
Elodin: Uh.....you might want to take a biology class.
This is so crazy it actually makes one sad for you. First of all, none of us are extreme leftists, the cold war is over, it's you who is the extremist, not the rest of the world. (And not to cave in is not some kind of trait here as some people think, it is a form of deficiency at this level: Some amount of fear is good, too much of it, you're called paranoid.)
What you say has nothing to do with science, science don't determine when a person becomes a person or what rights he has, first I told you that, later Corribus told you that and the guy is a scientist himself. You, as usual, ignored that part because it is not convenient for you and shamelessly still call your point of view scientific.
When you've been told that an embryo at an early stage has no brain
you said it will eventually have one as if the laws should be futuristic. Shoot a man who is healthy and young or shoot a man who is a terminal cancer patient that has a week to live, the law applies the same and can't be based on futuristic assumptions. That is what we talk about in here you know, THE LAW, NOT MORALS. You want to outlaw something which isn't your right to do so, based totally on your stone-age interpretation of human development. You talk about letting nature taking it's roll, while like 95 percent of civilization is based on not letting nature taking its roll, there wouldn't even be the paleolithic age if we did that. So you want nature to take its roll, don't cure epidemics, overpopulation wont be a problem and then you can start talking about how unnatural abortion is.
Extreme leftists my ass..
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 17, 2013 03:10 AM |
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Of course abortion is a solution (and a choice). The question is, is it a good solution? It gets rid of unwanted children, but what other consequences does it have? Are the other consequences acceptable? That's what the debate is about.
a good solution? it is morally, practically, and even economically the correct choice, as far as population expansion goes. so yes, it IS a good solution.
Really? Let me give you another solution to population control. Let's do worldwide sweeps. Round up everybody on the left, take the to Africa. Have the dig holes in the infertile lands. Shoot them all in the head, use them as mulch. That will make the land more fertile and so crops will be better able to be grown. Less population + more crops = less starvation. Heck, maybe even NO starvation. That looks like a "better solution" than your to the "population problem." And heck, that would give all those leftists screaming about man messing up the environment and the world being overpopulated a chance to not be hypocrites. They could voluntarily go to the "fertilization camps" to "do their part for the world."
Uh...just to make sure everyone is clear that was political satire. Unlike the left, I in no way endorse murder.
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and, i just want to ask this of all anti-abortionists:
given the chance, would you have aborted adolf hitler, before he was born?
Good question, but no. If I could travel back in time I'm sure I could find another solution to stop him rather than kill him as a child.
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Revelation
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted May 17, 2013 08:34 AM |
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Elodin, uh.....you might want to take a biology class.
Here's the correct sentence.
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what it boils down to, is, that to be free, one must also be responsible, and nobody really wants to be.
Responsibility actually limits freedom because you have to restrict your behaviour to what will be "good" or "just" for other people. But yeah, people are ultimately irresponsible outside their small, cozy cave. And trying to teach them some responsibility usually results in cries "Oppression!".
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 17, 2013 08:48 AM |
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I can't remember the last time anyone adopted an unwanted 3 month old fetus, but I'm sure you will tell me.
Alsoif there are plenty of people willing to adopt unwanted CHILDREN - which we are not talkiong about: why are the orphan homes full then?
Uhhhhh....some folks have come as close as possible to doing so. They make an agreement with the mother who does not want her baby and they pay all hospital bills, ect. Then when the kid is born the mom gives up her rights to the child and the couple who paid the bills adopt the kid.
For example:
Clicky
Quote:
Adoption: There is no cost to you if you choose adoption. In fact, pregnancy-related expenses are paid for by the adoptive family, which often include medical care and living expenses. Examples may include: rent, utilities, maternity clothing, food, prenatal vitamins and any other medical expenses not covered by your insurance or Medicaid. You will be able to speak with your adoption specialist about your specific needs.
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But the best is your so called morality. It's not morality, you are talking about.
Yeah, it is immoral to snuff out snuff out the life an in innocent young human just because the mother does not want him.
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It's wise-cracking arrogance. Because it's physically impossible for you to ever be in that situation yourself, and judging things you are prevented from ever coming into the situation to have to make a decision, is ... something that should be punished somehow for the sheer hipocrisy that comes with it.
You run your mouth dogmatically about everything and then condemn everyone else who expresses an opinion different from yours. Sounds like someone is a hypocrite all right, but it is not me.
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If we are discussing abortion - why are you telling stories about children and murdering them?
According to embryology an embryo is a human organism. A human child. Snuffing out that innocent young human is murder, JJ.
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Now, a question for you. If you want everyone else to shut up about abortion
Stop, right there - I don't. I want YOU to shut up about it because - go right back to the first point of this post. I hope I could make that clear now, brother.
Yes, the extreme left is the most intolerant group of people on the planet. The "tolerate" one view and one view only--their own.
Adoption is the loving choice of a parent. Abortion is the selfish, immoral killing of a baby. Unless of course the mother's life is in danger.
Still droning on about stuff that's none of your business.
That seems to have been the problem with all the religious fundamentalists in the whole world. Instead of minding their own splinters in their own eyes, like their beloved Jesus told them, they mind other people's splinters in other people's eyes.
And then, when people tell them to mind their own business and stop trying to pester others with their preachings and petty ideas about how everyone is supposed to do and especially not to do, of course they feel wronged and unfairly attacked and whatnot.
There are areas in which this is exemplary, and abortion is one.
The issue has been debated back and forth and left to right and back again, and it should be clear for every reasonable person, at least, that every female person should have the basic and fundamental right to terminate a rape-induced pregnancy, because if that right is not given, it means automatically that every man can multiply by force and abuse every woman as a reproductive vessel, and while you could punish the man for it, he would still be allowed to keep the fruit of his crime, so to speak, and at the raped expense.
Since Elodin isn't conceding even this basic right to female persons, discussion with him makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, since this makes him a misogynist. As a male, he's trying to pin everything onto the females, yet again, and as we've come to expect it from the religious fundamentalists everywhere in the world. There's this song by John Lennon, Woman is the ****** of the World, and he was right then, and he is still right, although, things have become better in the 1st world.
There just is no discussing with the likes of you, Elodin. Go mind your own splinters.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 17, 2013 09:15 AM |
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JJ:
Either the religious people are right about abortion and it's murder or they're wrong and it isn't. If they're right (as they believe themselves to be), it makes no sense for them to stand by and let such horrible atrocities happen without saying anything. It so happens that they're wrong, and abortion isn't murder, but on the whole their attitude of "stop bad things" is a good one, and is the attitude you'd want people to have if something actually bad was happening. For something that's actually bad - for example, the War on Drugs - you wouldn't want people to say, "Oh, you're against the government raiding people and taking away the children of marijuana legalization activists? Mind your own business."
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Eccentric Opinion
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This thread is pages long: 
