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| Thread: Greatest President Ever? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Defreni
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted June 06, 2004 06:32 PM |
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Well Svarog, its Defreni 
But how I can defend a man dropping 2 nuclear bombs. Pretty simple...Pragmatism.
If the 2 A-bombs hadnt been dropped, the Allies would have had to invade Japan.
Yes I know there had been ouvertures for peace from the Japanese just prior to the dropping of the bombs. But they where being squelched by the hard-liners in Tokyo.
This was known by the U.S due to the fact that the japanese code had been broken.
So it was basically a question about numbers. A prognosis of an allied invasion of Japan predicted that 300.000 allied troops and around 3-5 mill. japanese would be killed. This is compared to around 110.000 japanese killed outright when the 2 bombs where dropped and a further 140.000 killed from the aftereffects.
In comparison U.S B-24 killed 250.000 people in Tokyo in just one night of bombing with incendiary bombs.
Regards
Defreni
P.S: Harry Truman was a fine president, who, amongst numerous good things he did, sponsored the Marshall-plan and the air-bridge to Berlin, where the world was even more on the brink of war than 13 years later in the Cuban-crisis.
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redhawk
Known Hero
Gaurdian Supreme
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posted June 06, 2004 07:30 PM |
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I have enjoyed this little jousting tournament, looks like we have got another hero that can debate as well as PH can. Defreni has got very good info and lays down good arguement, just like Private hudson and Svarog.
As an American, it truly helps me make choices in life when I can here opinions from all over the world on how they view America, it's people, Government, politics, laws, and freedoms.
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It's better to burn out, Than fade away !!!!!!!!
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted June 06, 2004 08:36 PM |
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Always giving me a hard time Private,
Even when I did write that dang you are ungrateful.
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Dreaming of a Better World
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted June 06, 2004 08:48 PM |
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I didn't understand half of it 
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted June 06, 2004 09:06 PM |
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hehe,I dont understand half of what most presidents did
Maybe id you read about each one I described, you will see that it makes more sense then you think.
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Dreaming of a Better World
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted June 06, 2004 10:43 PM |
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I can't make head nor tail of any of it to be honest *just looks confused* And I'm not patient enough to care, easier to go find a website on it
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted June 07, 2004 12:54 AM |
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I was trying to make it a little more exciting by putting my own words into it so it can be funner to read.
Cut me some slack lol.
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Dreaming of a Better World
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted June 07, 2004 01:47 AM |
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Defreni, (i got it right this time)
I didn't write several pages of debate with PH (just he and I, no alien posts), just in order to start it all over again here.
You can always revive that thread if you want, but please after you read the whole discussion. Let's not get into this where it's not the topic.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Defreni
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted June 07, 2004 09:06 AM |
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You sure did Svarog 
I dont really have time for that right now, its gotta be after the 24. as I have a paper on Regional Integration in Africa, and an exam in Epistemology set for that date.
But I do believe it to be on-topic considering its the greatest U.S president we are discussing. And in this context their actions are quite important.
But I get your drift and will stop my Truman fetisch here.
Besides F.D.R. is my man in this race
Regards
Defreni
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted June 08, 2004 11:14 AM |
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F it why not vote for Hudsons Privates for president I mean he knows all, he cant be argued with, I bet he even knows more then the previous president.
Ok then Hudsons PRIVATES for president .
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Dreaming of a Better World
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted June 08, 2004 01:46 PM |
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Quote:
I bet he even knows more then the previous president.
I don't know about the previous president, but he sure knows a hell lot more than your current one. (I'm not kidding.)
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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khayman
Promising
Famous Hero
Underachiever
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posted June 08, 2004 02:14 PM |
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Svarog wrote:Quote:
Also, if you have a minute, could you please explain me why the hell one sane individual may choose Reagan as the best president ever?
I heard that Ronald Reagan had the highest 'approval rating' of any United States president when he was leaving office. So I am guessing that out of all of our presidents, he pissed-off the American public the least during his time presiding over our nation.
On the serious side, Ronald Reagan was known as the 'Great Communicator' for his fine dilpomatic skills and ability to convey his intent to foreign leaders and the American masses. Although he was a famous actor prior to entering politics, the American people truly felt that they could relate to Reagan, even if he was the oldest president ever to assume the position. His ability to communicate and identify with the average American
allowed him to easily gain their trust and confidence, an often rare and valuable skill IMHO.
On another note, I have to agree that Abraham Lincoln is an excellent candidate for greatest U.S. President. Who would have wanted to inherit the presidenct knowing that their time in office was going to be spent with the formidable task of trying to re-unify the nation? He must have had an iron will and unyielding intestinal fortitude to be able to deal with that American tragedy, in addition to dealing with the abolotion of slavery. I would guess his time in office was a bit stressful.
Here's my nominee...Harry S. Truman (1945-1953):
"On August 6, 1945, at precisely 8:16 a.m., the first atomic bomb exploded in Hiroshima, Japan, just seconds after leaving the Enola Gay. It carried with it the equivalent of 20,000 tons of TNT. Everything within four square miles was desolated.
On August 9, 1945, the second atomic bomb exploded at approximately 11:01 a.m. in Nagasaki, Japan, after being dropped from the B-29 Bockscar. This bomb contained the equivalent of 21,000 tons of TNT, and destroyed everything within three square miles"
You think you got stress and tough decisions at school or your place of employment? Try chewing on this type of decision. Do you drop an atomic bomb on one of your enemy's major cities, knowing that in addition to the destruction of the city's infrastructure, that there will be thousands of civilian casualties as well? (Not to mention the after-effects of the bomb for the future generations.) I don't know about you, but this type of decision is one that you could not pay me enought to have to make. In regards to Truman's decision to drop those two bombs, I give the man credit for just making a choice in this matter, regardless of if he made the right one. Personally, I do not believe that there was a 'right choice' in this decision, but rather merely the lesser of two evils to decide upon. Tough times, tough situation, tough decision...tough man.
BTW, good topic, Private Hudson. This is just another example of your hidden desire to become a United States citizen. Someday, PH, someday.
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"You must gather your party before venturing forth."
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted June 08, 2004 02:31 PM |
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That's the bad thing about actors running for President. They manage to do their talent, and fool the masses, so when their job in the White House is done (and the world significantly messed) they come out as the greatest and most beloved Presidents ever. Polotics is not Hollywood, my American friends.
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In regards to Truman's decision to drop those two bombs, I give the man credit for just making a choice in this matter, regardless of if he made the right one.
 ROTFLMAO
You can't be serious. The decision to drop nukes is one of the guy's greatest virtues?! Then I suggest giving HItler the Nobel Peace Rrize for his brave decision to commit genocide over the Jewish people.
Quote:
BTW, good topic, Private Hudson. This is just another example of your hidden desire to become a United States citizen. Someday, PH, someday.
Yeah, he seems to know more about USA than Europe or even UK and he's more willing to talk about that. Assimilation at work.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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khayman
Promising
Famous Hero
Underachiever
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posted June 08, 2004 02:51 PM |
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Quote:
In regards to Truman's decision to drop those two bombs, I give the man credit for just making a choice in this matter, regardless of if he made the right one.
ROTFLMAO
You can't be serious. The decision to drop nukes is one of the guy's greatest virtues?! Then I suggest giving HItler the Nobel Peace Rrize for his brave decision to commit genocide over the Jewish people.Quote:
Horrible analogy, Svarog. Truman dropped the bomb in order to end Japanese aggression, whereas Hitler decided to advocate the genocide of the Jews in order to feed his personal hatred of the Jewish people and to facilitate his 'New World Order'.
I said this in a previous post somewhere in the Other Side, but there needs to be a specific topic made for this particular issue.
The decision to drop those bombs led to the unconditional surrender of Japan, and thus the end of World War II. If I recall my history correctly (PH, may need your help here), the United States gave fair and adequate notice to Japan prior to dropping those bombs, in hopes that Japan would surrender without the mass destruction. Japan chose not to heed this request. Does this negate Truman's responsiblity for the resulting deaths of the atomic bombs? NO. Could the situation have been avoided? YES. Just a thought...
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted June 08, 2004 03:06 PM |
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Quote:
Then I suggest giving HItler the Nobel Peace Rrize for his brave decision to commit genocide over the Jewish people.
Try as I will it gets harder to take your posts seriously when you use such ridiculous logic as this. Whatever your thoughts on it being a warcrime, Trueman thought he was doing the right thing He had motives that involved ending the war quickly and without as much bloodshed as other options. Hitler slaughtered civilians without any kind of motive that could be justified or debated by sane people. Don't insult people's intelligence by comparing the two, IF it was a warcrime, it most certainly was not the allied holocaust.
Khayman: At Yalta (IIRC, the last big three meeting prior to VJ day) the allies made a statement to the effect that either the Japanese must surrender unconditionally, or else they will face immediate and utter destruction. They as you said refused. To summarise the other topic there was some weak attempts by the Japanese to negotiate surrender, but many of the Japanese government were not prepare to even consider it. Some wrangling was made re the Emperor and other issues. There was also vague hints of a coup against the pro-peace faction just prior to the bombs (that wasn't mentioned in the other thread, someone else mentioned it a while back).
Quote:
Yeah, he seems to know more about USA than Europe or even UK and he's more willing to talk about that. Assimilation at work.
I'm sorry, are we talking about the same me here?
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted June 08, 2004 03:08 PM |
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Edited By: Svarog on 8 Jun 2004
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It's not a horrible anology, khay, because the reason you base your pick according to your own quote is the braveness of the decision, not whether it was right or not. And there are many indicators to show that it wasn't, but as i said, not in this thread please. look up for PH's thread and we can talk there.
And just one notion. NO, the USA didn't give a fair warning to Japan. In fact they withdrew it what they wanted to issue just prior to dropping the nukes (the Potsdam declaration). Enough about this. Read that one and we'll talk.
EDIT:
Quote:
Try as I will it gets harder to take your posts seriously when you use such ridiculous logic as this.
It was as serious as was the reason for the comparisson he gave.
Here's the epic thread:
WW2 and the atomic bombs; PH vs Svarog
And it was Consis who created the thread not PH. Sorry for the misguidance.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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privatehudson
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The Ultimate Badass
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posted June 08, 2004 03:30 PM |
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The fact that your serious about it doesn't make it the logic any less ridiculous...
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted June 08, 2004 03:35 PM |
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Edited By: Svarog on 11 Jun 2004
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The point was that if we follow that logic, that is the kind of absurd conclusions we can get. Not that I really equate the two. I'm sure you can uderstand that.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted June 08, 2004 04:33 PM |
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I defend or attack americans depending on if I think they are right. I don't do either out of habit...
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the one that praises American generals from the American civil war the most (by far not the greates conflict in the history of mankind),
Uhmm no. Firstly I stated that I considered Wellington the greatest ever. Wellington was British (Born in Ireland at the time it was British and he considered himself British) not American. Further I equally praised Manstein (A German), Alexander (a Greek) and consider many others brilliant. Incorrect analysis again I'm afraid. Furthermore a general's ability should not entirely be judged on the level of war he was involved in.
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the one that quited from the Europe debate (maybe got bored talking about Europe for the first time)
You were making incoherent arguments and using "facts" that often were not factual about the UK. I failed to see the point in discussing it further, especially since the last post I made in reply to yours never recieved an answer.
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and a long list of your pro-American achievments.
Say what?
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I don't know, which one is that?
The one you invented to prove your ever more laughable point.
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The point was that if we follow that logic, that is the kind of absurd conclusions we can get.
No, it's not because the differences between the two events ensure that we seperate the two. Unless we wish to be pedantic that is...
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khayman
Promising
Famous Hero
Underachiever
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posted June 08, 2004 06:44 PM |
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Waiting For The Next Comparison
At the rate you are going, Svarog, I am anxiously looking forward to your comparison of Alexander the Great to Macedonian President Boris Trajkovski...
I am going to read the article from your link, and then check-out your atomic bomb discussion with PH.
The thing that gets me about the atomic bombings is why wouldn't Japan have surrendered after Hiroshima? I always wondered about that decision as well.
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