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Heroes Community > Heroes 4 - Lands of Axeoth > Thread: No more hit and run in HOMM4
Thread: No more hit and run in HOMM4
Oldtimer
Oldtimer


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Supreme Hero
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posted July 21, 2001 12:05 AM

No more hit and run in HOMM4

My theory is that hit and run is effectively dead.

Why??

Because when you loose a battle in heroes 4 your hero is either captured or unconcious on the battlefeild designated by a tombstone.  I believe that this means you cannot buy back heroes in the tavern, I speculate that if you retreat from battle you will remain on the map and given opportunity to flee.

If you attack a superior opponant and flee, he probably will be able to chase you down and capture your hero.
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LordPaul
LordPaul


Promising
Famous Hero
Crazy Bat Guy.
posted July 21, 2001 12:14 AM

I had that idea once, too.  But I realized that if you run on your opponents turn, when would you have the chance to run from them?  Hit and runs are never that bad.  If they have no creatures and bolt you, so what?  You loose 10 Gnolls.  If they do have a lot of creatures and use their Dragons on you and then run, they either loose those creatures or have payed an incredible amount of money!!  And both ways they have to spend 2500 to get them back.  I just don't think hit and run is that bad.  But what do I know?
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deth8
deth8


Promising
Known Hero
posted July 21, 2001 12:21 AM

always will be people making rules

Well, there will be something in the game people don't like after some crafty person figures out a special combination of something in the game.  Then you will see people wanting rules about it.

As for the senario you mention about the heroes what about surrendering?  There are those that have proposed that an attacker must allow the person to surrender.  However, why not just end the game at that point if they guy wants to surrender and the attacker has to say ok I agree.

Well, hopefully the game will just be awesome and we can just have a good time playing it and working up good strategies.

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deth8
deth8


Promising
Known Hero
posted July 21, 2001 12:24 AM

Here it comes

Quote:
I had that idea once, too.  But I realized that if you run on your opponents turn, when would you have the chance to run from them?  Hit and runs are never that bad.  If they have no creatures and bolt you, so what?  You loose 10 Gnolls.  If they do have a lot of creatures and use their Dragons on you and then run, they either loose those creatures or have payed an incredible amount of money!!  And both ways they have to spend 2500 to get them back.  I just don't think hit and run is that bad.  But what do I know?


I hope this doesn't start the whole yack about H&R on yet another thread when those that feel compelled to answer you start answering.

Please keep it on the original thread folks.  And happy reading so that we don't have massive repeats of the same arguments......please?

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Sha_Men
Sha_Men


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jack-Of-No-Trades
posted July 21, 2001 12:25 AM

Fleeing...

If hero flees, let's just assume he remains in battle field, what happens when it's other heros turn?
Are you meaning that fleeing hero could move after the fleeing and maybe find safe place to hide...

Maybe hero that fled is "untouchable" for day and cannot be attacked. Or maybe hero who fled will come up in the adventure map as tombstone...

Why?
If one attacks but isn't fully put down and casts some mighty spell to take some of the opponents away he might want to flee. If he flees tombstone would appear into the map. He would lose all his troops as in earlier heroes but if he would to like be taken back to service he would have to be rescued. So how this is different from if hero loses totally. Well in that case hero would end up into enemy prison and not as tombstone to adventuring map. Sure it's easier to save hero from the adventure map than from opponent's town.

I'm not sure would this work or what would happen if one attacks opponents town and would like to flee. Maybe the tombstone would appear outside the town and not inside...
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Oldtimer
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posted July 21, 2001 12:26 AM

Many people here tend to hate hit and run.

I think it is just guerilla warfare and can be an effective tactic, (the AI uses it all the time and really hacks me off).

The thing I don't like about it is that the hero is instantly transported home.  I would prefer hit and run to use ambush tactics with a possible illusion or hide army skill or spell.  Example you set up an ambush, the enemy walks into it and gets hit, you battle and run.  When the battle is over the enemy cannot see you on the map because you are using concealing tactics.  On your next turn you can run for home or try to set up another ambush.
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LordPaul
LordPaul


Promising
Famous Hero
Crazy Bat Guy.
posted July 21, 2001 12:29 AM

I just have never really had a problem with hit and run, because the next turn I usually just take their castle.  I haven't played a lot of Multi-Player games, so is it a bigger problem there?

Deth8, took me a while to figure out what you were saying.  Why not just cut this thread out and add it to the original thread?  Is there a way to do that?  Because I never saw the original one.
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Sha_Men
Sha_Men


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jack-Of-No-Trades
posted July 21, 2001 12:31 AM

It's like any other strategy...

If it's "overused" it comes commanding factor and it's end up being like "Gremlin rush".

What is this thread about?
I think it's discussion about how to implent fleeing and surrendering into HoMM IV. It isn't like the original thread that discussed how to handle Hit'n'Run in HoMM 3.

I think it's whole different issue.
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LordPaul
LordPaul


Promising
Famous Hero
Crazy Bat Guy.
posted July 21, 2001 12:37 AM

How about no running in Heroes 4?  If your hero dies in battle, then you just have to go and rescue him.  It isn't very logical to have an entire army run all the way back to 'base' and be recruited anywhere.  This way the battles last to the end, and you can still get them back!

This would work a lot better if there were a limit of one hero per prison.  

I can still see surrendering working, though.  I would take the money.
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Oldtimer
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posted July 21, 2001 12:43 AM

Fleeing and surrendering have always been part of warfare.

During medieval time when you surrendered you gave your enemy your parole, not to fight him again or not fighting for a certain time period.

I propose that if you surrender or flee you should have to go back to you capitol before you can re-engage the enemy.

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Paradigm
Paradigm


Adventuring Hero
posted July 21, 2001 02:35 AM

Quote:
The thing I don't like about it is that the hero is instantly transported home.


Hit and Run is a fair tactic. Havind Him apear back in town should take at least one turn, if not the normal amount of turns that it would take to make the jorney home.


Quote:
I would prefer hit and run to use ambush tactics with a possible illusion or hide army skill or spell.  Example you set up an ambush, the enemy walks into it and gets hit, you battle and run. ....


Great spell! A Hide spell that allows you to disappear from the screen. You can continue to move until you run out movement (your horse is tired), then you wound remain invisible until you move or someone move over you (the ambush). Of course the ambushing Hero must have the first attack advantage.  


Quote:
When the battle is over the enemy cannot see you on the map because you are using concealing tactics.  On your next turn you can run for home or try to set up another ambush.


The ambushing Hero must be visible at this point. It is not currently his turn so he can not cast another Hide spell.

______________________________________________________

At the start of the ambush the Hit and Run option is still valid, but now it is called "Ambush and Run" ( A&R )!

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Oldtimer
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posted July 21, 2001 02:44 AM

The reason he should still be invisiable is he would be using the concealing tactic.  It would be like minutemen firing into redcoats and then fleeing into the woods, even though you know that they are there, you can't find them until next day starts and your ambush party tries to conceal again or you see them fleeing.

Maybe instead of seeing heroes from overhead we can find their hoofprints that gradually get fainter until they dissappear after 5-7 days, so that you know someone was around and which way they went but you don't find them until you are in visual range.
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Sha_Men
Sha_Men


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Supreme Hero
Jack-Of-No-Trades
posted July 21, 2001 02:54 AM

Fair tactic?

Yeah sure...In reality...
But not in HoMM. (at least for this point)

I think there should be away prevent the overuse of this tactic so one could use it but also suffer penalties because use of it.
There should be way that hero couldn't just flee and come back to his main town.

There are many ways to prevent this and we should consider each of them carefully.

Let's make guerrilla warfare (hit'n'run) efficient tactic that can be used but not so powerful that it destroys all the other strategies.

In reality Guerrilla warfare when done in the right way is very hard to counter. There's only one way that can work or just bring more guerrillas fighting with more rage. It's the demolishing of civilians, their homes and their usage as hostage or as human-shields against guerrillas.
It was done by the british in the south africa during the war with dutchmen, during Vietnam war by USA and so on.

However there's no way to implent demolishing of civilians to the game and wouldn't be appropriate in the first place so we have to think some other way to fight against Guerrilla so it wouldn't end up being too strong.

Use of concealment tactics could be part of fleeing...
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Oldtimer
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posted July 21, 2001 03:02 AM

Maybe concealed troops would have to be infantry type troops that a hero can hide if he has this guerilla tactic skill. Its hard to hide a tank after it attacks but soilders can blend back into the woods.

Other factors that could affect concealment.
Terrain type, its hard to blend back into plains or desert.
Maybe ambush could be a skill and concealment/illusion could be a spell.


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UnkaHaakon
UnkaHaakon


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happily tilting at windmills
posted July 21, 2001 04:45 AM

Quote:
My theory is that hit and run is effectively dead.

Why??

Because when you loose a battle in heroes 4 your hero is either captured or unconcious on the battlefeild designated by a tombstone.  I believe that this means you cannot buy back heroes in the tavern, I speculate that if you retreat from battle you will remain on the map and given opportunity to flee.

If you attack a superior opponant and flee, he probably will be able to chase you down and capture your hero.


Well, I tend to agree, but for a different reason.

We still don't know if fleeing/surrendering will be the same in H4 as it is now in H3. So, we don't know if that part of the Hit and Run equation will change.

However, since my guess is most of the heavy damage spells will be Chaos Magic (based on the info presented from 3DO) it's probably not going to be as easy to get that big hit spell anywhere but the Asylum. Also, since we have been told there is no more Power attribute for heroes, and that spells won't be doing the huge amounts of damage they can do in H3, the effectiveness of this tactic will be probably be greatly lessened.

After all, the only reason for using H&R is because it's moderately effective. Make it less effective (due to lower spell damage, availabilty of spells, hero alignments, etc), and it will go away.
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Paradigm
Paradigm


Adventuring Hero
posted July 21, 2001 06:32 AM

Quote:
The reason he should still be invisiable is he would be using the concealing tactic. ....

This sound more like a Thieving Ability like Diplomacy or Archery. If the Hero had such an ability I think he could remain hidden after the Hide spell.
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LordPaul
LordPaul


Promising
Famous Hero
Crazy Bat Guy.
posted July 21, 2001 08:37 PM

In one screen shot I saw Hiding or Sneaking or something... as a sub-skill of Logistics.  So it probably will be a skill.  I'm just curious how it works....
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