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| Thread: The Nordic model of welfare, and why I get paid for studying for free :) | |
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bjorn190
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posted June 09, 2004 02:02 AM |
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The Nordic model of welfare, and why I get paid for studying for free :)
Im up late studying for an exam in Echonomic History, which is fairly boring but very interesting, Especially in these days of political turmoil.
I get paid approximately $300 each month (not during summers) just for going to school.  And school is free here in Sweden. In addition to that I get to borrow an additional $450 per month (not during summers) that I will repay at a later time.  These are conditions that are there for all Swedish students for 6 years, as long as they keep passing the exams. So everyone who has the talent for it, can basically get a college degree in whatever their grade point average lets them access.
I went to medical school for 2.5 years, and now am soon starting my 4th and final year of business school. I've only had to work summers, because of the money I get from the Swedish government for studying. I really like these conditions for students, and here is a text that explains what kind of model of society makes this possible:
"
The Nordic Approach To General Welfare
AT THE START of the present century, the Nordic countries were among the poorest in Europe. But as the 1900s come to a close, that state of affairs has been reversed, thanks to a demonstrably successful blend of market economy, democracy, voluntary organizations and active government policies.
All European countries may to some extent be described as general welfare states. What is distinctive about the Nordic approach is the dominant role of national governments in the formation of social policy, and the development of an extensive public sector for the implementation of that policy. The state also has an important social-political function in other European countries; but a much more prominent role is played by the private sector, voluntary organizations, and the family than is generally the case in Norden.*
The invention of social insurance
Social insurance, which constitutes the foundation of the modern welfare state, is a European invention. In replacing the "poor laws" of Europe, national insurance programmes provided a more effective and humane response to the problems of old age, illness, industrial accidents and unemployment.
One of the first programmes to be established was workmen's compensation for Norwegian miners, in 1842. A number of limited insurance plans were developed throughout Europe during the following decades, but a major breakthrough occurred with the introduction of a national insurance system in Bismarck's Germany during the 1880s. The most lasting and significant innovation of the Germany system was the principle of state-supervised compulsory insurance. That principle was fiercely debated at the time, but has since been incorporated into most social insurance systems.
The European invention of social insurance has since spread throughout the world. As of 1995, some 165 countries had adopted some form of social insurance system; nearly all provide old age and survivors' pensions, as well as compensation for work-related injury. Less widespread is unemployment insurance, which currently exists in approximately sixty countries.
The role of the state
In the early developmental stages of European social insurance systems, debate centred on the proper role of the state. There eventually emerged a variety of approaches, the basic outlines of which remain visible today. A rough distinction can still be drawn between a Northern European approach which emphasises national citizenship and a co-ordinated institutional structure, and a continental approach with more fragmentary institutions and a greater reliance on the family.
There are historical factors which help to explain why the citizens of Northern European countries in general, and the Nordic countries in particular, tend to expect more of their governments than do the peoples of Southern Europe and the United States. The feudalism of the Nordic region was less rigid than in continental Europe; and, although far from classless, Nordic societies were comparatively egalitarian during the pre-industrial era. They have always had fairly small populations, with a high degree of cultural homogeneity in terms of language, religion, social behaviour, etc.
In all of the Nordic countries, there was a forced merger of church and state following the Reformation, which helped to strengthen and legitimate the central government. In Southern Europe on the other hand, health, education and social welfare services remained the province of the "supra-national" Roman Catholic Church until quite recently.
The growing strength of the labour movement and the class-based struggles of the industrial era resulted in political compromises which laid the groundwork for the universal, egalitarian social insurance systems of today's Nordic countries. The notion of a "people's insurance" was already well-established at the turn of the century; but it was not until the 1950s and 1960s that such systems were more or less fully established throughout the region.
The Nordic model
In comparison with the rest of Europe, the Nordic general welfare states share twelve fairly distinct characteristics which, taken together, may be regarded as a specifically Nordic "model". Those characteristics are:
1. A greater degree of active state involvement than in other countries. For example, the state guarantees basic pensions and free or heavily subsidised health services for all residents, although the delivery of such services is usually administered by provincial or local governments.
2. By international standards, the greatest proportion of the labour force employed in the social, health and educational sectors-- roughly thirty percent.
3. Heavy reliance on the public sector for the provision of social and educational services; roughly ninety percent of all personnel in those sectors are public employees. The corresponding figures for other European countries range from 40-80 percent; in the U.S., the figure is 45 percent.
4. The organization of social insurance within co-ordinated national systems which have overall responsibility for basic pensions, sick-leave benefits, child allowances and health services.
5. A comparatively high level of trust between citizens and governments. Nordic societies are more "state-friendly" than other European societies.
6. Comprehensive, or universal, social insurance systems which cover entire populations or sub-groups. For example: every resident is entitled to a basic old-age pension upon attaining retirement age, even in the absence of any history of gainful employment; child allowances are allocated to all families with children, regardless of income level; all residents are entitled to the best available medical services, irrespective of income, social status or other personal characteristics. This contrasts with most other European countries, where entitlement is conditional on successful participation in the labour market.
7. An advanced level of gender equality, especially as a result of legislation since the 1970s; essentially all benefits are "gender-neutral", in that women are treated as individuals with needs and rights of their own, rather than as merely wives and mothers. Nordic labour markets are characterised by high rates of female employment, nearly-equal incomes for men and women in comparable occupations, and a well-developed support system for working mothers.
8. Social insurance systems free of class or occupational bias. Those with high incomes are included in the same system as those with low or no incomes.
9. General taxation as the principal means of financing, which has the effect of redistributing income. As a result of the Nordic countries' universal, redistributive social insurance systems, their poverty rates are among the lowest in the world. Minimum pensions are not especially high, but generous in comparison with those of most other countries.
10. A greater emphasis on providing services, as opposed to direct income transfers, than in other European countries. Those services include an extensive network of child-care centres, old-age homes, and in-home assistance for the severely ill and the elderly.
11. A traditionally strong emphasis on full employment as a goal in itself, and as a prerequisite for generating the necessary economic resources for the general welfare state.
12. Strong popular support. Such issues as children's well-being, public health, old-age care, etc., are consistently accorded the highest priority in opinion surveys and during elections. No political party seeking broad support can afford to ignore them.
The fact that the Nordic countries can be described with the foregoing list of distinguishing features does not mean that they have become "welfare paradises". As nations everywhere, they are confronted with a variety of old and new challenges. But in comparison with other developed countries, they are subject to far less severe and widespread levels of crime, alcohol and drug abuse, poverty and related problems. Furthermore, problems associated with single parenthood and unemployment appear to be less severe, due to the support provided by Nordic societies to those affected.
This comparatively favourable state of affairs is almost certainly a consequence of the institutions and social policies of the region's strong and efficient central governments. In addition, the comparatively egalitarian spirit of the Nordic countries, as expressed for example in their redistributive income policies, very likely contributes to greater social cohesion and stability.
Current challenges
Thus far, the 1990s have been a decade of considerable economic turbulence, resulting in unusually high rates of unemployment and growing strains on social insurance systems. Sweden and Finland have been most severely affected, while Norway has thus far managed to avoid cutbacks, thanks in part to its substantial oil and gas revenues. Iceland and Denmark occupy a middle position in that regard.
In recent years, all Nordic governments have stepped up their efforts to encourage and assist the jobless to find gainful employment. Some may be tempted to interpret that trend as a concession to neo-liberal ideology. But it is actually in complete accord with the traditional Nordic emphasis on the value of work and full participation in society. Politicians who blow the neo-liberal trumpet too loudly tend to encounter resistance in Norden. Thus, the basic structures of the Nordic general welfare states have remained intact, largely due to broad political compromises and the sufficient, if somewhat grudging, support of the voting public.
At this point, it is impossible to say whether the minor modifications to the social insurance systems of Sweden and Finland, and to a lesser extent of Denmark, may prefigure some kind of fundamental change. But so far, the institutions and programmes of the Nordic general welfare states have survived fairly intact, despite the severe challenges of recent years. It is therefore still appropriate to speak of the "Nordic model" of society.
-- Stein Kuhnle, March 1998
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Really nice place to live in  + we have alot of hot tall blonde chicks here, WOOT!
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Frick
Known Hero
and eternal n00b.
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posted June 09, 2004 09:48 AM |
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I didn't read the long part of it, but is school really free? I thought that's why we have taxes... 300$? That's... 2400 SEK?
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terje_the_ma...
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Disciple of Herodotus
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posted June 09, 2004 01:53 PM |
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Oh, it's so god to be a Nordic citizen!
Ok, stuff, especially alcohol, tobacco and gas, is really expensive, but the good parts weigh up for that.
The only true bad thing is that cursed conscription thing; I have to waste a whole year up in the northern parts of Norway, instead of using that year on my studies....
Funny thing: The Norwegian Army still has defensive strategies based on the threat of the Soviet union! No wonder other NATO countries call us "the last cold warrior"...
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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khayman
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Underachiever
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posted June 09, 2004 04:48 PM |
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Quick Questions for Bjorn
Bjorn, what are your taxes like in your country? I am guessing that they are at least 30-40% or even higher. If not, then I admire your government's investment in the educational future of its citizens.
Also, if you receive this money for education, is there a requirement to stay within your country for XXX amount of years after graduation or can you take your degree and seek employment in another country. I know, strange question, but very curious. Thanks.
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hamsi128
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tosser tavern owner
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posted June 09, 2004 09:01 PM |
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oh no!!! we live in terrible conditions here 
at least we have the sun and better climat then our nordic blond friends
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quoting my post = bullet in your head
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bjorn190
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posted June 10, 2004 12:09 AM |
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Bjorn, what are your taxes like in your country? I am guessing that they are at least 30-40% or even higher. If not, then I admire your government's investment in the educational future of its citizens.
Yup they are high, and while low wages are higher than in the USA, high wages are lower. How to view this depends alot on political and echonomic orientation, I just know that me and most people I know have an amazing life here (And Im starting my 4th and final year on the most elitist right wing business school in sweden this fall)
When I work, I pay about 30% on anything above the first 1000 dollars I earn. Then people pay progressive taxes to around 50% marginal tax I think. But anyone who wants to leave to a lower tax country gets to do it carrying a nice free college degree that they actually *got paid* for getting
But Sweden is such a nice country for kids to grow up in, so alot of people stay because it feels so safe and caring here. It's hard to get left behind in sweden, because people care, even about strangers.
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Also, if you receive this money for education, is there a requirement to stay within your country for XXX amount of years after graduation or can you take your degree and seek employment in another country. I know, strange question, but very curious. Thanks.
Nope I am free to leave whenever I want, so while theoretically someone could exploit it if they were some sort of asocial egocentric, few people in Sweden lack compassion and responsibility, and the systemic effect is that most of them stay, building a great country with very high degree of education for alot of people.
Its kinda simple I think.. if you make sure everyone gets a good education, and feel safe, as well as have the financial possibility to persue a career as something other than a minimum wage-slave, you end up with a very powerful echonomy that will outgrow less educated societies (probably). Thats at least whats starting to happen in sweden
Improvement is always improvement, and can be beneficial even though you cant control that every person pays you back the exact amount he should. The loss from betrayal is far outweighed by the massive improvement for the group, and synergy effects from high trust & education level. And those that leave increase the echonomic growth somewhere else in the world, which helps the global world.
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killa_bee
Bad-mannered
Known Hero
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posted June 10, 2004 04:10 AM |
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sweden is a socialist government who cares
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IYY
Responsible
Supreme Hero
REDACTED
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posted June 10, 2004 04:21 AM |
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Gotta love these European socialist countries. I wouldn't have minded living in one, but they don't really tend to accept immigrants.
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted June 10, 2004 09:28 AM |
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Honestly my situation is better "/ not tryin to brag, but i dont feel much need to bite my tounge.
2 states in the U.S. pays college for veterans with honerable service and I put 1200 in while I served which now pays me about 400 to go half time, and 900 full time for a few years.
Of course, this isnt awsome for non vets (and there dosnt seem to be alot of us in school).
I would like to add, that if a country imposes high taxes, while the minimum wage is higher and huge saleries are lower, when those taxes go to the community (the people) it really isnt bad
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What are you up to
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terje_the_ma...
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Disciple of Herodotus
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posted June 10, 2004 11:36 AM |
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Gotta love these European socialist countries. I wouldn't have minded living in one, but they don't really tend to accept immigrants.
Yep, that's one of the few things I really hate about Scandinavia. Everyone here are so afraid of everyone who doesn't come from a North-Western European or Northern American country.
But not all of us are like that.
Btw, did anyone hear about what happened in Stockholm (Swedish capital) on the Swedish national day this weekend?
About 100 neo-nazis attacked a peaceful anti-racist demonstration, throwing bricks, bottles and other stuff at them.
Boy, do I hate neo-nazis! That has gotta be the stupidest buch of morons the world has seen in some years.
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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vicu
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 10, 2004 01:40 PM |
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Education in Estonia
State universities are free in Estonia also, even though our government's politics is hmmm, let's say -liberal...:-) Sadly most of us don't get paid money for studying, except for some 10% of extra bright persons, others can take study loan (that will be repayd by state if you'll work in state institution)... Of course we have private universities as well, but nothing beats Universitas Tartuensis (founded in 1632).
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terje_the_ma...
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Disciple of Herodotus
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posted June 10, 2004 02:16 PM |
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Well, we don't exactly get paid for studying; It's more like we get scholarships (the only thing you have to do to get one of these is to fill out a form. So I guess we are kinda paid to study... But what the heck!), but those scholarships are turned into loans if we don't graduate (finishes our exams when we are supposed to), or if we are absent too much from lessons (damned right wing government! They meke demands of us!  ).
In addition to this, we are offered loans at what used to be very advantageous terms. We don't have to pay back any money until we have gotten rid of any other loans, and the interest used to be lower than the usual loan interest.
So you could say that we are given a university degree.
But we have to work for our grades, just like everyone else...
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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Svarog
Honorable
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statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted June 10, 2004 04:15 PM |
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Going to university and actually getting paid for it?! 300$ a month?! That's more than the avarage month salary here (only 200 euros)! You lucky bastards.
If I was getting paid that much for studying, I would stay a student forever. btw, is 300$ for university or high school students? Do high school students also get paid?
Why would anyone want to leave Sweden or Norway and move to another country? No need to worry about losing the smart people there. Unlike here, where only the smartest people get to leave cos rich countries need a ready-made brain that they only need to utilize in the workforce. They are hermetically closed for uneducated immigrants.
However, I wouldn't live up there north. I hate cold climate, and I also dislike cold people, so I don't think I can adapt in your place.
As I was reading through the article, I noticed that the structure and principles on which the welfare states of Scandinavia function is basically socialist. So, we should not credit Bismarck for implementing such an egalitarian system, but the long line of socialist thinkers and the wokers' movement that continously pressed for redistribution of the income over the board.
It is a fair and humane system, no doubt, but it's not the perfectness of the system that makes you Vikings secured and happy, but it's the fact that you are filthy rich. But I can only commend you for taking the right path to more equal and just distribution of those money. The strong central role of the national government and the important role of the local government for the efficient delivery of the social services, is the best possible combination. But, I have to say that this is only an efficient way to keep basic needs of people pleased, so that everybody's happy, while the generator of the inequality (the capitalist system) is still barely touched by the system. In some way a strong welfare serves as a second in importance corrective device of the discriminatory system that generates the inequality in the first place.
However, you should be aware that this is not exclusive to Scandinavia, but also most of the post-communist states had systems like this one. Unfortunately, with the transition, all these structures are being "reformed" and private funds are implemented instead. In Macedonia, we have a minimum pension, social assets for the unemployed, free education, free health, though not child support and getting paid for studying (which would be great ), and all that managed by the central government. But as you see, it's not the concept of the system that functions, but a multitude of other factors determine its effectiveness and functionality. Whatever the case is, it is certainly more fair than if we leave the welfare in the hands of the private sector. On the contrary, in my country, there have been taken steps towards private schools and private medicine facilities, as well as private pension funds, that should eventually dominate the services market. All in the name of reforms.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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bjorn190
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posted June 11, 2004 12:14 AM |
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As I was reading through the article, I noticed that the structure and principles on which the welfare states of Scandinavia function is basically socialist.
Yup it seems that way. But we also have capitalism and democracy, so its a bit of both. I'd like to see it as the best of both worlds. Capitalism to drive growth and innovations, and fair pay for working, and socialism to make sure nobody is left behind. It is fair that a smart hard working person gets alot more money than a lazy stupid person, but both of them should be guaranteed a safe life with rights to healthcare, food, a home, and some fun now and then.
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But, I have to say that this is only an efficient way to keep basic needs of people pleased, so that everybody's happy, while the generator of the inequality (the capitalist system) is still barely touched by the system. In some way a strong welfare serves as a second in importance corrective device of the discriminatory system that generates the inequality in the first place.
Capitalism has its benefits, and the free market has beaten the plane economy in efficiancy. Thats one of the reasons that the capitalist countries are so rich. Im probably alittle more right wing than you here Before money can be distributed, it must first be earned somehow. Capitalism earns money.
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However, you should be aware that this is not exclusive to Scandinavia, but also most of the post-communist states had systems like this one.
Yup, but where do you think they got the idea from? yup yup Scandinavia We had this system first, and still have it. And I read on TV today that Sweden has a economic growth rate of 2x that of the EU on average!! WOW!! O_o thats amazing, to grow twice as fast. Must be our education system combined with the cheap and fast internet services we can order. WOHOO!! Go Sweden! (and scandinavia, our lovely neighbours and kindred spirits - we should form a NU - Nordic Union)
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terje_the_ma...
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Disciple of Herodotus
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posted June 11, 2004 10:07 AM |
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As I was reading through the article, I noticed that the structure and principles on which the welfare states of Scandinavia function is basically socialist. So, we should not credit Bismarck for implementing such an egalitarian system, but the long line of socialist thinkers and the wokers' movement that continously pressed for redistribution of the income over the board.
Actually, it was Bismarck who made all those social reforms, but he only did it to secure his own power; without the social reforms, the working class would probably rebelled and overthrown him. Sad that they didn't...
Bjorn: I once had an idea to a Scandinavian Union called Norwegian European Union!
It starts out like this: Norway uses our 1000 billion NOK oil fund to buy Sweden (or at least your almost unpopulated areas next to our border; finally, we could get Jämtland and Härjedalen back!).
Then we say to the United Nations that we're willing to accept 100 million African refugees, and we settle them out in the Scandinavian extension of the Taiga.
This would give us a total population of some 112 million inhabitants, and make us the populationwise largest country in the EU (I think...).
Then, with the oil money Norway bought Sweden for, we build homes for our new fellow Scandinavians, and establishes industry, so that they can work. The rest of them could be employed in the army, or something.
This would give us the power to take over the EU and turn it into, tada!, the Norwegian European Union! (Or Scandinavian European Union; after all, you Swedes are in on it, and by this time, we'll have bought Denmark, Finland and Iceland as well.)
Man, if I'd spent as much energy on my schoolwork as I do on these insane theories, I'd be a staright A student... Now I only get Bs....
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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bjorn190
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posted June 11, 2004 01:21 PM |
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Bjorn: I once had an idea to a Scandinavian Union called Norwegian European Union!
It starts out like this: Norway uses our 1000 billion NOK oil fund to buy Sweden
Well me and my friends once had a plan for Sweden to take back what is ours! Namely Norway We've conquered you before, we can do it again
But.. I was thinking more like its a big world out there, and we are so similar in culture and values. We should be one big country instead of 5 divided ones. Especially now that UK, Germany and France have secret meetings about how to run the EU..  And also avoid the rules that should apply to everyone.
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Svarog
Honorable
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statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted June 11, 2004 02:55 PM |
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Yup it seems that way. But we also have capitalism and democracy, so its a bit of both.
First, I didn't say you have socialism (in economical terms), but the welfare principle is socialist, which is good. Also, democracy and socialism are not antagonistic, you should know that.
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It is fair that a smart hard working person gets alot more money than a lazy stupid person, but both of them should be guaranteed a safe life with rights to healthcare, food, a home, and some fun now and then.
100% agreed. But the problem with capitalism is not about the salary (although technically, yes; that too), but the ownership. I'm also in favor of free market more or less, but I'm not in favor of private ownership of big busenisses, and to some extent medium enterprices. However, small businesses are fine with me.
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Yup, but where do you think they got the idea from? yup yup Scandinavia We had this system first, and still have it.
Not quite. One might say that Scandinavia borrowed the functional structures originally incorporated in the socialist societies, and alien to the capitalist system. May I remind you, the Russian revolution dates back to 1917, while the welfare reforms were introduced in the Nordic countries, as I recall from the article, late in 1950's and 1960's. In both cases it was an achievement of the socialist and workers' movement.
Crediting Bismarck about it makes no sense, exactly because he was dead set against the Socialist in Germany at the time. Only their pressure and the fear from a revolution made him implement such progressive measures.
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Must be our education system combined with the cheap and fast internet services we can order. WOHOO!! Go Sweden!
Believe me, it's not the education system.
Although education is an important part of a country's developement (there was one guy whose name escapes my memory that once said that a country with a good educational system will sooner or later come to prominence or something like that but with more style than me ), also many many other factors determine the well-being of a state.
In Macedonia, 20% of the unemployed (8% of total workforce) are with college degree, and we have also about 20 doctors of sciences (!!!) that are currently under the Burau for Emloyment. What good are all these educated people when they have nowhere to work, and those who work already, have jobs inadequate to their level of education. Go figure.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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terje_the_ma...
Responsible
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Disciple of Herodotus
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posted June 14, 2004 03:42 PM |
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But.. I was thinking more like its a big world out there, and we are so similar in culture and values. We should be one big country instead of 5 divided ones. Especially now that UK, Germany and France have secret meetings about how to run the EU.. And also avoid the rules that should apply to everyone.
Yeah.
Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Iceland, Öland, Faroe Islands. What's the difference? We should have one great Scandinavian nation. Damn you Swedes for pulling out of the Kalmar Union, and damn the Danes for ruining it with their powerhungry domination! And damn us Norwegians, too, for being so lazy and dumb!
But the federal Scandinavian state isn't that bad an idea...
Btw, have you heard that the Danes are really pissed at us Norwegians because the biggest papers in Norway supports the Swedish national team in the European Championchip?
Well, that's what they call us "mountain apes" and knock us out of the Eur. Ch. qualification.... (well, actually that was Spain, but they live too far away to blame, so... )
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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