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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: The work of an Extremist or the Truth?
Thread: The work of an Extremist or the Truth? This thread is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT»
Celfious
Celfious


Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
posted June 21, 2004 11:42 AM

the depths of spirituality that I have rarely encountered, made very clear that almost everything is evil. D&D and Holloween are some of the first things on the list which have ties with evil.

In those spiritual depths, to even listen to one Black Sabboth song, is like committing spiritual suicide.
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Svarog
Svarog


Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
posted June 22, 2004 04:55 AM

From the "depths" of my spirituality Celf, I can see the surface. And guess what. Things are much clearer from where I stand.

Quote:
As by the law of many countries: "Not only he who throws the stone is guilty. The person who handed him the stone and told him to throw it is equally guilty at the least."

Very true. And who's the one who gives him the stone? The church! By all standards, he's not extremist, since he's only promoting what the church promotes. (Dont tell me the church doesn't condemn all those things he writes about.)

In fact, I would say that all other "believers" are a bunch of hypocrites since:
a) They believe in something, but they don't show it in public
or a bunch of heretics since:
b) they dont believe in the BS the church preaches. Instead they adopt a more liberal perspective of Christianity each according to his own merits, which is not a common thing for an organized institutional religion, but rather a collection of different cults and sects. (using the church's terminology)

Point is: dont bash the guy for believing in a crazy conservative doctrine such as Christianity. Ask yourself what do you believe in and where you should go in order to practice your believes.
 

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Vadskye91
Vadskye91


Promising
Supreme Hero
Back again
posted June 22, 2004 04:59 AM

Bother not with these heathens...
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Aquaman333
Aquaman333


Famous Hero
of the seven seas
posted June 22, 2004 05:12 PM
Edited By: Aquaman333 on 22 Jun 2004

Quote:
From the "depths" of my spirituality Celf, I can see the surface. And guess what. Things are much clearer from where I stand.

Quote:
As by the law of many countries: "Not only he who throws the stone is guilty. The person who handed him the stone and told him to throw it is equally guilty at the least."

Very true. And who's the one who gives him the stone? The church! By all standards, he's not extremist, since he's only promoting what the church promotes. (Dont tell me the church doesn't condemn all those things he writes about.)

In fact, I would say that all other "believers" are a bunch of hypocrites since:
a) They believe in something, but they don't show it in public
or a bunch of heretics since:
b) they dont believe in the BS the church preaches. Instead they adopt a more liberal perspective of Christianity each according to his own merits, which is not a common thing for an organized institutional religion, but rather a collection of different cults and sects. (using the church's terminology)

Point is: dont bash the guy for believing in a crazy conservative doctrine such as Christianity. Ask yourself what do you believe in and where you should go in order to practice your believes.
 



Predjudice is an ugly thing, Svarog.

Your insults towards the Christian faith make me sympathize with our friend, Chick, more and more.

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privatehudson
privatehudson


Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
posted June 22, 2004 05:43 PM

Quote:
Very true. And who's the one who gives him the stone? The church! By all standards, he's not extremist, since he's only promoting what the church promotes. (Dont tell me the church doesn't condemn all those things he writes about.)



First, we need to stop talking about the church like there is one church, Christianity has divided itself many times down the years, saying "the church promotes" is a woefully generalised argument at the best of times. If we're talking about what the bible promotes, then what he's saying is also condemned by the Old Testament, but to assume that all churches are going to (or even have to) condemn it also based on the OT is not realistic. Most modern churches accept that the OT rules and morality was overtaken by those in the New Testament. The NT promotes different ways of dealing with sin and sinners than the old, and especially preaches a different form of salvation to the old.

There are many branches of the Christian faith, and many of those do not follow the whole bible, nor do all of them believe that it is the word of god. I find it incomprehensible that we should attack them all with generalisations and accusations that do not refer to all. As for your second class of Hypocrite Svarog, lighten up from your bias for a change, if people follow a set of beliefs that happen to be their own and not the bible's, that doesn't make them a hypocrite unless they break those beliefs. Just because they don't follow your defenition of a "church" or follow the bible doesn't mean they have no right to call themselves christians.

Because frankly I don't personally think god gives a **** whether you follow the whole bible or not

Though how anyone manages to sympathise with someone who promotes such tripe about Catholicism, Islam, Music, D&D and Haloween is a little beyond me...

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Svarog
Svarog


Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
posted June 23, 2004 03:39 AM
Edited By: Svarog on 22 Jun 2004

Has it become common on this forum for anybody who doesn't agree with me to etiquete me as biased?! I wonder whom I owe that. Thanks PH.

Like it or not, today's all major churches condemn those things that guy portarayed in his comics (i.e. gays, D&D) Some nominate them as sins, others just choose to be more quiet about it. But be the OT strict codes or not, they all generally maintain the same distinctions between good and evil.
Now, since I know that PH would immediately jump about how the Anglican Church allowed gays in its clergy (cos we already had this debate through MSN), may I say that I wasn't "generalizing" the church there, but rather take each and every single church, and compare its ethics with those of its believers.
In every case, the same three groups of "believers" could be distinguished. The hypocrites, the heretics and the fanatics.

Quote:
The NT promotes different ways of dealing with sin and sinners than the old, and especially preaches a different form of salvation to the old.

Still, it doesnt make it any different if one says "Gays will go to hell." and the other "Gays will go to hell unless they repent for their "sins" through Jesus."

Quote:
As for your second class of Hypocrite Svarog, lighten up from your bias for a change, if people follow a set of beliefs that happen to be their own and not the bible's, that doesn't make them a hypocrite unless they break those beliefs.

I didn't name them "hypocrites", I named them "heretics". Having your own set code of belief, different or even slightly modified from that of the church, is what the church would call heresy. And how ironicly, according to their terminology, most "believers" are heretics. Face it, the church is a conservative retroactive organization which only tolerates full conformism, and not even a slight bit of liberalism.
And the hypocrisy from their side would be the part where they although don't conform with the church, they still go there and keep quiet about their believes.
Thing is, we've gotten so much used to this church/believer drift, that many dont even know what the church truly stands for (or know, but don't care) and yet it still has an initial influence on their spirituality. And for me, this is extremely unnatural and hypocritic.
Quote:
Just because they don't follow your defenition of a "church" or follow the bible doesn't mean they have no right to call themselves christians.

Look, dont get me wrong. I'm all for those kind of people and their rights to call themselves whatever they like. What I'm saying is that if we are to blame this guy for extremism, then we're also to blame the church for even greater extremism. Or if we are to name the church holy and righteous, then the same would have to apply for this loonatic too.
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privatehudson
privatehudson


Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
posted June 23, 2004 04:30 AM

Quote:
Like it or not, today's all major churches condemn those things that guy portarayed in his comics (i.e. gays, D&D) Some nominate them as sins, others just choose to be more quiet about it. But be the OT strict codes or not, they all generally maintain the same distinctions between good and evil.



Wrong.

Firstly the Church of England has no stance on D&D, and no church (of any denomination) I have ever been in, or anyone I have spoken to who claims a connection to it has ever condemned D&D. The church of England represents quite a large number of christians, so I somehow doubt they could be called a "sect", nor to my knowledge does any other major church. Whatever you claim, the impression you gave out was that all churches are hypocritical or heathen or whatever term you chose to say you used, which as I mentioned is a far reaching, dubious claim given the variety of opinions they hold and their variety of views on the bible.

Allow me to repeat the fact that concentrating on just two issues to make him seem like a normal christian is to ignore tracts that I have mentioned that do not conform to the norm of protestant or catholic belief. Don't ignore evidence presented before you please when it pertains directly to one of your central claims.

Quote:
Still, it doesnt make it any different if one says "Gays will go to hell." and the other "Gays will go to hell unless they repent for their "sins" through Jesus."


I repeat again that I adressed this already, stating that whilst his opinion that gays will go to hell is normal "christian" (in so much that you can define it that way since more catholics exist than protestants) teachings, my point centered around his portrayal of gay people, demonising of them and so on. I have (like the above) mentioned this before, I would expect you to notice please.

Quote:
What I'm saying is that if we are to blame this guy for extremism, then we're also to blame the church for even greater extremism. Or if we are to name the church holy and righteous, then the same would have to apply for this loonatic too.



First adress the points I raised in how he differs from basic belief. Then continue the discussion in another direction. Don't ignore entire points people make when you produce your conclusion and then move on like the subject is closed. It's not.

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Consis
Consis


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
posted June 23, 2004 06:16 AM
Edited By: Consis on 23 Jun 2004

Svarog You Don't Understand

Quote:
Still, it doesnt make it any different if one says "Gays will go to hell." and the other "Gays will go to hell unless they repent for their "sins" through Jesus."

~ I'm afraid that it does make a difference Svarog. You aren't differentiating the two reasons. On the one hand one says ("gays will go to hell").

I believe ("gays will go to hell") is more logically defined as being a permanent and unchangeable static status. Ergo the gays will go simply because they are defined under the word "gay". There are no options for getting out of going to hell.

~ On the other hand they say ("gays will go to hell unless they repent their sins through Jesus").

I believe ("gays will go to hell unless they repent their sins through Jesus") is logically defined as a less permanent slightly more dynamic status. This less permanent and slightly more changeable status would seem to be defined as having a way out of being sent to hell whereas the former(to which you claim there is no difference) is being defined has having no way out of being sent to hell.

I will also have to respectfully disagree with my friend PrivateHudson of whom states that no church has made an official opinion concerning the role playing D&D games. Here in america, I'm afraid many different religious organizations have stepped forth with some very public feelings to this matter. And as Svarog has said, they most certainly oppose it openly and aggressively.

However, if PrivateHudson was saying that there was no church that he(in specific) has ever known to publicly divulge such a stance concerning something of this nature then I respectfully withdraw my former statement and amend it to simply state that this sort of blatent opposition is present within the u.s.
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privatehudson
privatehudson


Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
posted June 23, 2004 10:53 AM

That's interesting consis, I wonder, do the actual organised church bodies there (if such a thing exists) denounce the game, or just individual members and groups that do not have any final say on morality? Here there are a number of branches of the church, methodist, C of E, high church and so on, but the largest number owe alliegence to either the Church of England or the Catholic faith. Now an individual church or pressure group here being against D&D I would not find unusual, however neither the Church of England or Catholic Church here are as a group, nor are to my knowledge any of the other smaller churches.

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Shirastro
Shirastro


Famous Hero
Happy happy joy joy
posted June 23, 2004 12:25 PM

Svarog take my advice ......give it up.
Ne zele da te slusaju.
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And now to the next post.

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Consis
Consis


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
posted June 23, 2004 04:59 PM
Edited By: Consis on 23 Jun 2004

PrivateHudson,

I know of two church bodies that have done so. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints(Mormons) and Baptists. Others, as I have seen, are mostly comprised of members who are very vocal on the matter. Either way, you will find that they form discussion groups, town meetings, etc. to be more proactive in the "fight against Satan".

It is as I said, such fanatical beliefs gives way to extreme opposites like the afformentioned band of Ozzy Ozbourne. The more people try to aggresively silence, destroy, regulate D&D gamers, books, paraphanalia, the more one sees an occurence of equal opposition. People/kids don't like being told that their wonderfuly creative games are the work of the devil by parents who also claimed any and all game consoles(from Nintendo-8 bit and so on) were the devil's work as well. It's really sort of a viscious cycle found inside the states that I dare say is not so common in any other country.

A slight bit of information for you also... D&D is owned by a company called Wizards of the Coast. Wizards of the Coast is a sub affiliate owned by a larger company called Hasbro inc. Hasbro inc is a very large manufacturer of toys. The slogan for Wizards of the Coast(as you might have noticed on the wizards.com website) is "the leader for gaming hobbies". This is an interesting take on what the fans consider to be "roleplaying". They use such terminology to help fend off the devil-pointing parents and critics. As a D&D player myself, I can assure you I don't do it as a hobby. I play it because I love the game. My hobby is physical exercise. I do that when I have nothing else to do and want to stay in shape.
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Svarog
Svarog


Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
posted June 24, 2004 01:54 AM

Quote:
Whatever you claim, the impression you gave out was that all churches are hypocritical or heathen or whatever term you chose to say you used, which as I mentioned is a far reaching, dubious claim given the variety of opinions they hold and their variety of views on the bible.

PH, I know you’re an intelligent man. Why can’t you understand me (or deliberately twist my words)? I didn’t attempt to make any generalizations at all. I said and strongly emphasized, the hypocrisy should be looked in the relation between each church and its believers.
However, many things are shared by all the churches, so if you don’t have the info don’t deny it. Concerning the topics of this “artist’s” comics, they are roughly shared by all of the churches (and entirely accepted by Catholicism, Orthodoxy as far as I know). Even if that’s not the case with few churches, there’s still the same disharmony between what those church preach and what their believers accept.

Next time you go to church (even if its your Anglican protestant one), ask the priest:
“Father, is it OK to be gay? Is it a sin?”
“Father, is it a sin to play games connected to magic and witchcraft?” or
“Father, is it acceptable to celebrate pagan festivals?”
(I can explain why they consider each of these to be against God if you want)

You’ll be surprised from the answers. The only thing that would differate the churches would be the aggressiveness of the approach. But they all find these things to be sinnful and as you might know, you go to hell for your sins.

Quote:
Don't ignore evidence presented before you please when it pertains directly to one of your central claims.

Then you failed to see my central claim. It’s not to proove that all churches are promoting the same thing as this guy and in the same way.
I want to say that most of them stand behind that theory, and the rest of them behind other just as extreme theories.

Quote:
I repeat again that I adressed this already, stating that whilst his opinion that gays will go to hell is normal "christian" (in so much that you can define it that way since more catholics exist than protestants) teachings, my point centered around his portrayal of gay people, demonising of them and so on. I have (like the above) mentioned this before, I would expect you to notice please.

I see what you mean. But again, the difference is in the approach. Even those churhces who believe being gay is wrong, see it in much the same way. Here’s their logic. Wrong is sin; sins are caused by the Satan wanting us to turn away from god; the demons are manifestations of Satan; the demons posses the gays, as long as they’re sinful. So there, the same thing, only they don’t defend it aggressively enough for even people to notice it. And the difference Consis also mentioned, aabout the ways to repent for the sins. But still it is SIN.

Don’t digress the discussion to whether it’s all churches or most or some that support these ideas. Take the Catholic Church for example if you really need to have something concrete to work with. Just don’t spoil the more essential potential points of this debate about the detrimental influence over people that is at the core here.

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Aquaman333
Aquaman333


Famous Hero
of the seven seas
posted June 24, 2004 02:04 AM

Quote:
Quote:
Whatever you claim, the impression you gave out was that all churches are hypocritical or heathen or whatever term you chose to say you used, which as I mentioned is a far reaching, dubious claim given the variety of opinions they hold and their variety of views on the bible.

PH, I know you’re an intelligent man. Why can’t you understand me (or deliberately twist my words)? I didn’t attempt to make any generalizations at all. I said and strongly emphasized, the hypocrisy should be looked in the relation between each church and its believers.
However, many things are shared by all the churches, so if you don’t have the info don’t deny it. Concerning the topics of this “artist’s” comics, they are roughly shared by all of the churches (and entirely accepted by Catholicism, Orthodoxy as far as I know). Even if that’s not the case with few churches, there’s still the same disharmony between what those church preach and what their believers accept.

Next time you go to church (even if its your Anglican protestant one), ask the priest:
“Father, is it OK to be gay? Is it a sin?”
“Father, is it a sin to play games connected to magic and witchcraft?” or
“Father, is it acceptable to celebrate pagan festivals?”
(I can explain why they consider each of these to be against God if you want)

You’ll be surprised from the answers. The only thing that would differate the churches would be the aggressiveness of the approach. But they all find these things to be sinnful and as you might know, you go to hell for your sins.


You've never been to church, or you would realize that the points presented in the comics are out of date. I have no idea which Christians you've been speaking to, but go to any church in America, and most likely Europe, and you'll see gays, D&D players, hell, you'll see gay pastors who play D&D and go to Halloween parties. I hand out candy on Halloween, I play D&D occasionally, I'm not going to go to Hell for it. Religion often takes on new characteristics depending on it's era. Your listening to some cartoonist who's stuck in the past and acting like he speaks for every single Christian on the planet.
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"OOOOOOO!"."  
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Lews_Therin
Lews_Therin


Promising
Famous Hero
posted June 24, 2004 04:55 AM

Quote:
You've never been to church, or you would realize that the points presented in the comics are out of date.

It´s amazing how those eternal truths are changing and adapting from decade to decade.
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Aquaman333
Aquaman333


Famous Hero
of the seven seas
posted June 24, 2004 07:07 AM

Quote:
Quote:
You've never been to church, or you would realize that the points presented in the comics are out of date.

It´s amazing how those eternal truths are changing and adapting from decade to decade.


That's because religion is applied by man, and man has his faults and predjudices. As times change, the people who perscribe religion unintentionally/sub-consciousley alter some minor details that were acceptable, but now don't make a whole lot of sense because we know more.
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"OOOOOOO!"."  
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Consis
Consis


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
posted June 24, 2004 07:08 AM

Aquaman333,

I'll have to agree with Svarog on his last post that clearly opposes yours. Svarog is saying that this sort of thing(these out-dated comics) is still taking place today and that many religions are confronting them with old and yet aggressive tactics.

Aquaman333, I speak from experience. It is true. In Texas, where I grew up, there are still large groups of people who behave with such religious fervor. I also understand what you are saying Aquaman333. Where you are, and possibly all that you have seen would tend to support that this sort of thing is nothing more than a memory of an unforgiving, finger-pointing, easy to label devil's advocate zealots.

Please listen to me and don't discard what I have to say. It is still going on and it isn't going away if we ignore those people and let them be the paranoid freaks that they are. In a way, it is similar to segregation of skin color in america. Legally, it has been abolished for over a hundred years but there are still people that think black people are nothing but slaves. I KNOW BECAUSE I HAVE SEEN AND MET THEM WHERE I GREW UP.

Just as slavery had to be addressed and not ignored, so too does this issue need to be addressed. This is not a joke. These are the kinds of people(such as the comic artist) who almost were able to force Disney from selling the kids movie "Little Mermaid". Why do you think the cover for the movie was changed? Because there are enough of them that complained telling Disney that the picture on the front(the golden city of mermaid people) was representative of a man's genitals.
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privatehudson
privatehudson


Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
posted June 24, 2004 12:18 PM

Quote:
PH, I know you’re an intelligent man. Why can’t you understand me (or deliberately twist my words)? I didn’t attempt to make any generalizations at all. I said and strongly emphasized, the hypocrisy should be looked in the relation between each church and its believers.



In which case I strongly suggest you specify the branch of the church in order to ensure that your claim is correct or otherwise. Continual use of the term “the church” is both misleading and vague. My intention in this thread is to determine which branches would support what, not to skip this part entirely in order to make a conclusion based on very little.

Quote:
However, many things are shared by all the churches, so if you don’t have the info don’t deny it. Concerning the topics of this “artist’s” comics, they are roughly shared by all of the churches (and entirely accepted by Catholicism, Orthodoxy as far as I know). Even if that’s not the case with few churches, there’s still the same disharmony between what those church preach and what their believers accept


Well I’ll be, unless you missed it, my original question was entirely about how many churches and Christians follow this. I wish to determine this before going onto a smug conclusion. Determining which, how many and so on was the point of this thread thank you, and to get people’s impressions from different countries and branches.

Quote:
Next time you go to church (even if its your Anglican protestant one), ask the priest:
“Father, is it OK to be gay? Is it a sin?”
“Father, is it a sin to play games connected to magic and witchcraft?” or
“Father, is it acceptable to celebrate pagan festivals?”
(I can explain why they consider each of these to be against God if you want)




In regards to your comments about my local church, the answer would be that my local vicar (Church of England and IIRC most protestant churches uses vicars not Priests, nor do we call them Father) does not agree that being Gay is a sin. Nor do an awful lot of vicars here, some do though. At this moment we have a discussion going on as to if gay people can become vicars. Your second question is a suggestive one, claiming that there is a direct link between witchcraft and D&D. The similarities are there, but your question is worded in such a way that it insinuates that the link is to real forms of the two. On that issue the local church has nothing against D&D specifically, which is what the question should be not disguised by using different terms to make it sound worse. On the third question, the local churches here do not object either because they recognise that the Halloween events are just fun, not children celebrating the festival as such. The original festival has been supplanted by the popular one and to people of today the meaning, therefore connection is lost.

I of course can only speak for the Church of England, the Anglican church though does spread through a number of countries and has significant influence.

Quote:
Then you failed to see my central claim. It’s not to proove that all churches are promoting the same thing as this guy and in the same way.
I want to say that most of them stand behind that theory, and the rest of them behind other just as extreme theories.



Uhmm, my interest is who does and who does not on a variety of the issues he portrays, not just two to three. I want to find that out before progressing to conclusions to be drawn on it. So far on 3 issues we have determined that the catholic and orthodox church agree (and some of the protestant ones do not) with the tracts, however on other issues not so far touched on I’m intrigued as to the points on which the branches of the protestant church and people here agree. I don’t fail to see your central claim, I do not recognise it as being what I wanted to discuss here. At least not before getting the original data anyway.

Quote:
I see what you mean. But again, the difference is in the approach. Even those churhces who believe being gay is wrong, see it in much the same way. Here’s their logic. Wrong is sin; sins are caused by the Satan wanting us to turn away from god; the demons are manifestations of Satan; the demons posses the gays, as long as they’re sinful. So there, the same thing, only they don’t defend it aggressively enough for even people to notice it. And the difference Consis also mentioned, aabout the ways to repent for the sins. But still it is SIN.



Your logic is not followed by all churches. My local one does not believe in “demons” possessing people committing sin. The details are vital, they represent how the churches deal with sinners and this is important. I wish to also establish this and see how different branches mirror or oppose this.

Quote:
Don’t digress the discussion to whether it’s all churches or most or some that support these ideas. Take the Catholic Church for example if you really need to have something concrete to work with. Just don’t spoil the more essential potential points of this debate about the detrimental influence over people that is at the core here.


Hello? That was the original topic! I’m trying to get a solid idea of which churches/branches and their followers might support what tracts. I’m not interested in broad based conclusions, assumptions or points you wish to make before finding out which branches do what.

Remember this?

Quote:
What interests me is just how much of this the christians here would agree with or support.


Perhaps you would like to cease digressing....

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Aquaman333
Aquaman333


Famous Hero
of the seven seas
posted June 24, 2004 07:27 PM
Edited By: Aquaman333 on 24 Jun 2004

Quote:
I'll have to agree with Svarog on his last post that clearly opposes yours. Svarog is saying that this sort of thing(these out-dated comics) is still taking place today and that many religions are confronting them with old and yet aggressive tactics.

Aquaman333, I speak from experience. It is true. In Texas, where I grew up, there are still large groups of people who behave with such religious fervor. I also understand what you are saying Aquaman333. Where you are, and possibly all that you have seen would tend to support that this sort of thing is nothing more than a memory of an unforgiving, finger-pointing, easy to label devil's advocate zealots.

Please listen to me and don't discard what I have to say. It is still going on and it isn't going away if we ignore those people and let them be the paranoid freaks that they are. In a way, it is similar to segregation of skin color in america. Legally, it has been abolished for over a hundred years but there are still people that think black people are nothing but slaves. I KNOW BECAUSE I HAVE SEEN AND MET THEM WHERE I GREW UP.

Just as slavery had to be addressed and not ignored, so too does this issue need to be addressed. This is not a joke. These are the kinds of people(such as the comic artist) who almost were able to force Disney from selling the kids movie "Little Mermaid". Why do you think the cover for the movie was changed? Because there are enough of them that complained telling Disney that the picture on the front(the golden city of mermaid people) was representative of a man's genitals.


The minorities of people who believe black people should have never been freed from servitude, that gays go to hell, that people who fantasize of sorcery go to hell, etc. are so miniscule, that they don't matter. You were unlucky enough to be introduced to these types of people, but that doesn't mean they are running rampant lynching people and burning gays at the stake.

And to Svarog, I'm going to have to agree with PH, your not doing a very good job of expressing your point with your constant references to "the Church" which lends itself to the assumption that your referring to Christians as a whole, and if that's the case, then I can assure you, your point is incorrect.
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Shirastro
Shirastro


Famous Hero
Happy happy joy joy
posted June 24, 2004 07:35 PM
Edited By: Shirastro on 24 Jun 2004

To Aquaman: you sound very naive.

To all the others: i think Svarog explained him self quiet well... If you dont want to understand thats your problem.
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Aquaman333
Aquaman333


Famous Hero
of the seven seas
posted June 24, 2004 07:47 PM

I'm not naive, I'm a realist.
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"Brian, look! There's a message in my Alphabits! It says,    
"OOOOOOO!"."  
"Peter, those are Cheerios."-Family Guy

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