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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: H3 Diplomacy
Thread: H3 Diplomacy [ This thread is 2 pages long: (1) 2 ]
megamankev
megamankev

Tavern Dweller
posted July 23, 2004 10:37 AM

H3 Diplomacy

Whenever people talk about this skill it seems like it is considered extremely powerful. But whenever I get this skill I find it to be almost useless. To explain:

Early game, you have no troops. If you confront stronger troops you run the risk (and likelihood) of being attacked and either killed or suffering large casualties. So in order to wisely attack troops as Diplomacy targets, you already need some level of force to overwhelm them. Either that or you might be able to pick up a handful of level 1s -- which is useful for the next few days only.

Mid game, you can safely attack wandering troops and maybe they will join your cause (but usually, unless you have managed to upgrade your Diplomacy skill, they still run away). If they do join, they're still lower-level, or only a handful of mid-level troops. You end up with small stacks of random troops, for example I recently ended up with 20 Hell Hounds, 40 Gnolls, and 20 Archers as my "loot" from Diplomacy. The first problem is that there are too many town types and you get morale penalties if you use them all. The second problem is that they're too weak to justify using them instead of your native troops. That is, by the time I got 20 Hell Hounds to join me, my weakest stack was 150 Halberdiers... even if the Hounds were arguably better, it's still not a great trade.

Late game, you have built up your native armies and there is simply no point in capturing 20 Hell Hounds to replace your 300 Halberdier, or 100 Marksmen, or 5 Angels. It's a complete waste.

It seems to me that the only time Diplomacy is a game-winner is if you're counting on a Month of the Whatever to generate a strong mid-level troop (like Griffins) and then with Expert Diplomacy you can go around and add a couple hundred of them to your army. But that's a real gamble to me.

So the question is, if you're one of those folks who considers Diplomacy a tier 1 skill, how exactly do you make it work to a meaningful advantage, in a non-luck, non-map dependent sense?

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angelito
angelito

Hero of Order
proud father of a princess
posted July 23, 2004 12:52 PM

I think you are missing 1 or 2 important points here.(at least)

1. If there were 20 hellhounds joining your army, you will definatly be stronger than withou them, right?
So, the stronger your army gets, the more wandering monsters want to join you. So after taking those hellhounds, there could be 25 dendroids join your army....with hellhounds and dends, there could be some level 6 units join you....and so on....and at the start of week 2, where you should have 3 level 7 units (on 100% and with level 2-dwelling built at start). Now try to get visions and you will see how fast the mood of wandering monsters will change.

2. If you are afraid of moral penalties, u have plenty of artifatcs to prevent that, u have a secondary skill to help ya, u have a spell to help ya, and u could give some of the diplo monsters to a scout..


I think diplo ruins the game (except both player have it), especially on L or XL randoms.
I would be glad to make a game with you on XL map, random, extreme template.....Wanna see your eyes when i come in your zone in week 5 with 50 ghostdragons, 150 champions, 45 behemots and so on...
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Shai-Hulud
Shai-Hulud


Known Hero
Sicomor
posted July 23, 2004 01:01 PM

Right there Angwlito.. I saw a game in which a guy Dungeon Castle... Having Diplomacy.. Went to fight a horde of Red Dragons.. And what do you know.. THEY"VE CHOINGED FOR FREEEEEEE.... That seemed to me like the most stupid thing on earth... He simplt doubled his dragons number...

Not talking about that necromancy thing... What would you like most... To ruin a skill, but to join you 1000 goblins( actually skeletons ) or to get only 750 of them( that in the best case) ?!?
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~~~Azzy~~~

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Zendy
Zendy

Tavern Dweller
posted July 23, 2004 01:13 PM

Diplomacy IS a strong skill

No offense, but it sounds to me like you just don't know how to use this skill.  Diplomacy can be very powerful when mixed with the right spell (Visions).  If you get diplo, the first thing you want to have is the visions spell (level 2).  If you haven't gotten it offered in any of your castles, you can obtain this powerful diplo spell in ANY of the 4 books of magic (it's one of the rare ones that's in all of em), because of this you can have any kind of magic skill and it will boost the area you can see.  You cast this spell, then right click on all the creatures around you.  It will tell you which creeps will join and if they want payment to join.  It also tells you if they will want to fight you or run from you.  Once you see which ones want to join, then you can pick and choose which creatures you want to join your army.  And yes, the better your diplo skill, the more likely you are to get the good joiners.  So if you do get diplo and visions, make sure to advance that skill first!  Then you will be on your way to getting throngs of level 7's in your army..  The more powerful you become with joiners, the more that will join you.  and if you are worried about the morale penalty, just be sure to try and get Leadership as a skill too, or some arti's that lend +'s to morale.  Hope this has helped...Good luck
Zendy
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Lord_Woock
Lord_Woock


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Daddy Cool with a $90 smile
posted July 23, 2004 01:14 PM

Diplomacy is of greatest use to Necropolis and Inferno, since they can turn any kind of unit (almost any in the case of Inferno) into native units.
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-- Isaac Asimov

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MagniBronzeb...
MagniBronzebeard


Adventuring Hero
posted July 24, 2004 12:21 AM

Inferno? Do you mean Pit Lords turning them into demons?
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megamankev
megamankev

Tavern Dweller
posted July 24, 2004 09:25 AM

So am I to understand that you can use Diplomacy to chain captures until you work up to a level 7, and this works in almost every game?

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Lord_Woock
Lord_Woock


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Daddy Cool with a $90 smile
posted July 24, 2004 10:40 AM

Quote:
Inferno? Do you mean Pit Lords turning them into demons?
Yes, that is what I mean. And unlike necromancy, number of demons resurrected doesn't depend on the hero's skills (does Marius's special affect it?) and is easy to calculate. If used properly, you can get hundreds of of demons within the first few weeks, which is a very good boost. Remember to transfer the demon food and pit lords (and some supporting army if possible) between heroes in order to maximize the number of demons resurrected every turn.
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-- Isaac Asimov

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Mitzah
Mitzah


Promising
Supreme Hero
of the Horadrim
posted July 24, 2004 06:30 PM

Diplomacy is THE best skill in HoMM3(not so important in HoMM4)You practically recruit(if you're lucky, for free) units, marching towards your enemies....
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Frick
Frick


Known Hero
and eternal n00b.
posted July 24, 2004 06:42 PM

It's strong, but it can be a game-killer. Once, I marched up to an enemy castle and our armies was equal... A fun fight, I thought, but then 400 TItans decided to join me! Did I win or did I win? It ruined the fun fight...

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Mitzah
Mitzah


Promising
Supreme Hero
of the Horadrim
posted July 24, 2004 06:47 PM

2Bad...2Pac...
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Motorschaaf
Motorschaaf


Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
posted July 25, 2004 01:14 AM

the discusion is nonsense

diplomacy can be the most powerfull skill of all or the most useless of all. cause it totally depends on map if creatures can join or not

it can be compared a littel bit to the navigation skill. which can be a top skill ( on 100% water maps ) or useless ( no water at all )

Rylandschaaf

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Mitzah
Mitzah


Promising
Supreme Hero
of the Horadrim
posted July 25, 2004 06:50 AM

Yes...I agree...but...let's say, on the last map at Long Live the Queen, it's very important at the beginning...you gather those pikemen and overwhelm the Comp.
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Give him a religion,and he will starve to death while praying for a fish.

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Sir_Stiven
Sir_Stiven


Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
posted July 25, 2004 05:11 PM

then your problem would be you playing computer at that map, not the diplomacy

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Pirahna
Pirahna


Famous Hero
or not ...
posted July 25, 2004 10:29 PM

With wisdom , diplomacy and some army you're almost unbeatable ...
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The Pirahna - wow guys ... my posts keep decreasing ... lol ... i can't post

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Lord_Woock
Lord_Woock


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Daddy Cool with a $90 smile
posted July 25, 2004 10:34 PM

Unless all wandering stacks are set to savage and the opponent took logistics instead of diplomacy
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Motorschaaf
Motorschaaf


Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
posted July 26, 2004 12:20 AM

Quote:
With wisdom , diplomacy and some army you're almost unbeatable ...


and this quote tells me that you got no wisdom at all

Tosserschaaf

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kwahraps
kwahraps


Adventuring Hero
posted July 26, 2004 01:52 PM

Isn't this entirely situational???

Whether you are playing single player vs. the AI or multiplayer, you can choose not to take the skill.  

Furthermore, even if you start with a diplomacy hero/heroine, you still have the choice to not allow monsters to join . . .

On any map, diplomacy can make a tremendous difference, because, essentially, you are purchasing hit points for money.  There is too much luck involved with what wandering stacks are littering the countryside, not counting if they want to join for free.

If you disallow wandering stacks to join, problem solved.

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Lord_Woock
Lord_Woock


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Daddy Cool with a $90 smile
posted July 26, 2004 03:17 PM
Edited By: Lord_Woock on 26 Jul 2004

Having diplomacy on a hero and not accept any joiners is like not using boats because you have navigation. What's the point in wasting a perfectly good skill slot on a skill you don't intend to use and further restrict yourself simply because you've got the skill?
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-- Isaac Asimov

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kwahraps
kwahraps


Adventuring Hero
posted July 26, 2004 03:37 PM

>>>Having diplomacy on a hero and not accept any joiners is like not using boats because you have navigation. What's the point in wasting a perfectly good skill slot on a skill you don't intend to use and further restrict yourself simply because you've got the skill?

Because some heroes start with these skills.  Has anyone ever started with a navigation hero on a random map with no water???  


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