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| Thread: Woot! Sweden is the 2nd best country in the world to live in! :D |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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this_other_guy
Famous Hero
{0_o} heh...
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posted September 23, 2004 05:19 AM |
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I have moved to japan, i can understand why its number 9.
I've lived in Japan for a while as well (Osaka), and i gotta say that EVERYTHING IS SOOOOO FREAKING EXPENSIVE!!!!! i mean AU$100 (around US$70) for a rockmelon!?!?!?! lettuce sold like ONE LEAF at a time for ridiculously high prices !?!?!?! GEEZ. Man i was like living off MacDonalds the whole time lol.
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1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d
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terje_the_ma...
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
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posted September 23, 2004 12:37 PM |
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Let me give you my two cents in this debate. I'm from Norway, and I don't believe Norway truly deserves the title of "best country in the world"! I think that title should go to Sweden instead.
True. I, a fellow Norwegian, believe that Sweden i better. As you said, they have better industry, and (hopefully) a more humane immigration policy.
If you come to Norway as a refuge from Northern-Iraq, Ethiopia or Somalia, just to mention some examples, and the right-wing freaks who run our country decides that, no, your country isn't war-like enough, or you aren't theatened enough, to get asylum here, you'll either
a) get kicked out, kicking and screaming by our tall, blonde police officers or
b) be put on the streets to manage on your own, without any money or anything else, to manage with your post-war traumas, until it snaps for you and you go on to stab dozens of people on some kind of public transportation. (believe me, this has happened, and will happen again.)
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Your arguments about how well the Norwegian government is functioning and how it deserves the title of "number 1 best country in the world" are extremely naive and simplistic. Statistics can never give you a true picture of how things really are. Whether Norway is the best country in the world or not is truly a political question. Sure they have higher standards of living than most other countries in the world, but so does the rest of Scandinavia. Norway only truly stands out because it was lucky enough strike oil in the North Sea. Everything that Sweden has achieved was built by creating a functioning system with incentives for economical growth.
True. And compliments to Sweden for that.
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Norway on the other hand struck gold and then put it away in an overseas fund (estimated at over 146 billion USD) while making the taxpayers cover the expenses of running a high-cost and inefficient welfare state by paying some of the highest taxes in the world..
The system isn't that inefficient, it's only that since most of us get along well, we luckily don't get to see the apparatus required to help those who are down on their luck. And do you know how the inflation sky-rockets when public spending is raised? We have in Norway inflation-targeted financial politics, and in order to keep inflation low (which is beneficial to attract foreign investors) we've got to keep public spending low. I would as well, in may respects, have liked to see public spending raised, but to created jobs, so that foreign investors won't be needed, since these jobs would be in government-controlled corporations, not some supect private person who tries to enrich himself on the cost of the people.
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For instance did you know that Norway has the second largest military budget in the world after the United States? Yet the Norwegian military is one of the most poorly equipped, incompetent and least impressive military forces in the world. Why is this? Could it be all the corruption and mismanagement? The Minister of Defense is a blonde female who constantly gets caught out in the press for saying stupid things, and many ranking officers in the military somehow get 7 figure salaries. Also, Norwegian roads and hospitals are among the worst in Europe.
The "2nd largest military budget" is actually only if you see it as spending pr. capita, but it's still scary. But, as you say, most of it is spent on paying some old cold warriors, who insist that the greatest thread to Norway still comes from the East...
And the road argument: Have you ever been to Poland? The roads there are the same ones that Hitler had built during his invasion of the country, 60 years ago, only they've been patched here and there so you get a really bumpy ride. Compared to this, Norwegian roads are heaven.
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Is Norway truly the best country in the world to live in? Well, that depends on where you stand: if you want to live on welfare or run a farm (farmers get big state subsidies), or perhaps you want to make a movie about your genitalia (crappy filmmakers get loads of money, too), I'm sure Norway is the place for you. However, if you want to run a competitive business in a dynamic market economy forget it. Norway is too expensive for foreign investors and too expensive for Norwegian companies to stand much of a chance in foreign markets. After all, can you name one Norwegian brand that has done well internationally? Sweden and Finland, on the other hand, have had huge successes such as Saab, Volvo, IKEA, Asko, Ericsson and Nokia to name some of the largest companies.
Don't pick on the poor people on welfare! Do you seriously believe that these people enjoy being at home each and every day, doing nothing, just sitting in front of their tv and watching crappy soap operas?
Most of them would probably have killed to get back into work, but either there is none (19.000 jobs has been lost in the industry during the last two years; out flagging seems to be that favourite hobby of modern capitalists...), or they are too sick to get a job, they are too black or too muslim to get a job (yes, we Norwegians are narural racists) or they for some reason don't have education, or are too embedded in drug abuse to get work.
Of all the perhaps 100.000 or so on welfare in Norway, i doubt there are as much as 200 of them who deliberately stays on welfare just to bause the system.
And as for the "competetive marked"-nonsense, we wouldn't have needed that if the Concervatives, the Liberalists and the Social Democarts hadn't privatized all the big national industrial corporations.
Btw, I'll have to agree that it's too many crappy films made here, though 
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Norway is all about the stringent control of all aspects of society, few other countries have as extensive databases on it's citizens
These databases are strictly surveyed, so that the information inside won't be misused. Imo, it's worse with private databases than government controlled ones. At least they don't sell information about you, and I feel it's good to have such a database, so that in case something goes wrong, they'll know where to find me (whoa! That actually sounded scary )
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or take as much of their income as Norway does -- as a result, Norwegians don't really have more spending power than Swedes -- this combined with the huge amounts of money in the oil fund and its tiny population (about 4.5 million) it would be surprising if Norway didn't manage to provide a reasonably high living standard for its people.
True. And we do.
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Yet Sweden has been able to do more than Norway (despite Norway's huge billion dollar surplus), such as better roads, hospitals etc, even with a budget deficit. This can only mean that Norway is grossly mismanaged!
Actually, Swedish roads hasn't been better than Norwegian since the 70's...
And mismanaged? Well, when the Minister of Modernization sells the right to preform public services, to private corporations, and his old consultant company advises both sides of the negotiations, I would call that mismanagement. I would not, though, call it mismanagement when you have to pay a little more taxes so that poor people can get their needed medicines a little cheper. And we don't pay 80-90% in taxes, as you claimed. For a average tax payer, the total is ca. 30% direct taxes, and 30% indirect taxes. Now, 60% may sound as much, but it's not nearly 90%!
Besides, Norwegian stock-holders took out 600.000.000.000 NOK in tax-free incomes form their stocks last year, while it would take 36.500.000.000 to pay the deficit for the counties...
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The government is over-employed, with five bureaucrats for every sheet of paper in public offices. Did you know that a city like Houston, with a population of about 3 million has 14 city council members, whereas a tiny city in Norway with a population of about 100.000 has at least 50 city council members. Is that over administration or what? And as for buying a new Ferrari: dream on! With Norwegian tax you'll be lucky if you can afford a rusty old Toyota Corolla. As a result, that's pretty much what the average car looks like in Norway lol -- cars cost over 40% more in Norway than in Sweden.
It takes a lot of people to manage a properly run welfare society. But if we were to give "childrens welfare" only to those who "need" it, or only give pensions to those who "need" it, as the Young Conservatives wat, we would have to use twice as much money on the bureaucrats as it would simply to pay all families with children or all retired people the way we do today...
But at least the people who abuse the governments "naïvity" wouldn't be able to!
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
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posted September 24, 2004 02:19 PM |
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I've lived in Japan for a while as well (Osaka), and i gotta say that EVERYTHING IS SOOOOO FREAKING EXPENSIVE!!!!! i mean AU$100 (around US$70) for a rockmelon!?!?!?! lettuce sold like ONE LEAF at a time for ridiculously high prices !?!?!?! GEEZ. Man i was like living off MacDonalds the whole time lol.
haha yeah Tokyo is da most expensive city in the world if im not mistaken
but other things are cheap like cars (really really really cheap) and electronics. you can buy a huge tv for like half its price in australia!
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John says to live above hell.
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Rindle
Tavern Dweller
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posted September 26, 2004 12:13 AM |
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Edited By: Rindle on 4 Oct 2004
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I really have nothing more to add than what I already said to the other Viking guy. Like it or not, Norway, or Sweden, or Finland are among the countries with the best quality of living. And that doesn’t mean they don’t have problems (corruption, poltiical problems etc.), but really people who have no insight in how other countries function (no offense, that includes you) and claim Scandinavia doesn’t have the best standards of living are mistaken.
First of all, Svarog, it's a bit ironic for you to claim that I have no insight into how other countries work when you do not even have insight into what I wrote; if you had bothered to read what I wrote you would have noticed that I actually said Scandinavia has "higher standards of living than most other countries in the world". Second of all, my arguments were mainly about Sweden being more deserving of the #1 spot on the UN list than Norway.
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And the reasons why Norway stands out from the others (oil, gold) have really nothing to do with the fact that it does.
On the contrary, my friend, it has everything to do with it! For you to claim that a government surplus of $146 billion has nothing to do with Norway's #1 ranking on the UN list is just too naive.
Oh and BTW, I meant "gold" as in "black gold". Get it? 
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If you think Norway’s got a bad healthcare system, you really havent seen the worst hospitals in Europe. Your opinion that your country is really not that good is based on the blonde Minister. LOL! Boy, you really havent seen political problems! And in order not to be blamed that I don’t spport what I say, I’ll ask you: “How would you feel if practically every decision of your government is put by certain structures in a context that would make it dependant with the country’s bare survival? This is Europe I’m talking about, though a crappy European country indeed (Macedonia), but anyway, it’s just an example how far you are ahead of us.
Again, if you had paid attention you would have noticed that the blonde minister was just one reference, not the basis of my entire argument. If I were to tell you about all of the incompetent characters in Norwegian politics I could fill a whole ten-page post lol. As for Macedonia being far worse than Norway (politically and economically), you'll get no argument from me there! You somehow seem to think I was implying that Norway is one of the worst countries in Europe, but I never even mentioned Macedonia. I'm simply saying that I think Sweden is better than Norway since they have been able to do more in the public sector, such as infrastructure, police and hospitals while Norway is shutting down hospitals and police stations due to underfunding and not building enough roads (not even in the areas that need it the most). If I didn't know better I'd think Sweden was the country with the billion dollar surplus, but the fact of the matter is that the Norwegian government is rigid, mismanaged, corrupt and run by smug, holier-than-thou type politicians. Again, I'm not suggesting that it's anywhere near as bad as your country, but then Macedonia is not really relevant to my arguments since I am not comparing Norway to Macedonia. No offense. 
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True. I, a fellow Norwegian, believe that Sweden i better.
Well hello there fellow brother. lol
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As you said, they have better industry, and (hopefully) a more humane immigration policy.
If you come to Norway as a refuge from Northern-Iraq, Ethiopia or Somalia, just to mention some examples, and the right-wing freaks who run our country decides that, no, your country isn't war-like enough, or you aren't theatened enough, to get asylum here, you'll either
a) get kicked out, kicking and screaming by our tall, blonde police officers or
b) be put on the streets to manage on your own, without any money or anything else, to manage with your post-war traumas, until it snaps for you and you go on to stab dozens of people on some kind of public transportation. (believe me, this has happened, and will happen again.)
And believe it or not, I was just up the street from where it happened! I saw the police cars and emergency vehicles rushing past. While I agree that Norwegian immigration authorities may seem inhumane at times -- I remember reading a newspaper article about a family who was thrown out of the country without even being allowed to gather their belongings -- my impression is that Norway is pretty much an open door when it comes to immigration. It's not that I'm against immigration, but it's just that I don't believe violent individuals with criminal records have any business being in Norway. Norwegian politicians are way too naive in this respect. The Somalian who went on a rampage on that Oslo-tram, for instance, (killing one and wounding five others) apparently has a history of violence and has previously been convicted for assault on a social worker here in '95 and followed up with threats the year after. I don't buy his insanity defense; the person he bought the so called "Rambo Knife" from said that he was well dressed, well spoken and knew exactly what he wanted. After the crime, he was "sane" enough to get rid of the weapon and hide out in a mosque. All everyone talks about is how this "poor Somalian" was not given adequate psychological care by the Norwegian taxpayers while no one even mentions the poor 23 year old hearing impaired boy who was stabbed to death among the five others who barely survived.
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And do you know how the inflation sky-rockets when public spending is raised? We have in Norway inflation-targeted financial politics, and in order to keep inflation low (which is beneficial to attract foreign investors) we've got to keep public spending low.
Yes I know about the inflation argument, but I don't believe for one second that inflation would sky-rocket if they spent enough money to keep hospitals and police stations from shutting down or built enough roads. It's all about the political will to prioritize. In Sweden they're doing a better job of building roads and making sure police and hospitals have the equipment and manpower they need, whereas in Norway they prioritize things like military bases that are of no use any more. This is just another example of the incompetence and corruption I mentioned earlier. Did you know that Norwegian hospitals have almost no equipment to deal with outbreaks, such as containment facilities etc? In Sweden, on the other hand, they have state of the art equipment and facilities.
Also, we have thousands of unemployed road construction workers who are costing about as much collecting their unemployment checks as they would if they were working. So there really is very little excuse for not increasing the spending in areas that need it.
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Don't pick on the poor people on welfare! Do you seriously believe that these people enjoy being at home each and every day, doing nothing, just sitting in front of their tv and watching crappy soap operas?
Most of them would probably have killed to get back into work, but either there is none (19.000 jobs has been lost in the industry during the last two years; out flagging seems to be that favourite hobby of modern capitalists...), or they are too sick to get a job, they are too black or too muslim to get a job (yes, we Norwegians are narural racists) or they for some reason don't have education, or are too embedded in drug abuse to get work.
Of all the perhaps 100.000 or so on welfare in Norway, i doubt there are as much as 200 of them who deliberately stays on welfare just to bause the system.
Yes, we say that because it's politically incorrect to assume that anyone is on welfare if they don't need it -- since, in theory, no one is on welfare unless they absolutely need it! But in reality many people know how to use the system. However, it was not my intention to "pick on" people on welfare, and you won't ever hear me say to someone on welfare that they are abusing the system. My reference to living on welfare was merely to point out that Norway has a generous welfare system, and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that.
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Btw, I'll have to agree that it's too many crappy films made here, though
I knew you couldn't deny that one lol.
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... I feel it's good to have such a database, so that in case something goes wrong, they'll know where to find me (whoa! That actually sounded scary)
My point exactly lol
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I would not, though, call it mismanagement when you have to pay a little more taxes so that poor people can get their needed medicines a little cheper.
Me neither, if that were the case.
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And we don't pay 80-90% in taxes, as you claimed. For a average tax payer, the total is ca. 30% direct taxes, and 30% indirect taxes. Now, 60% may sound as much, but it's not nearly 90%!
I was not the one who claimed we pay 80 - 90% tax, that was the other guy from Norway, but I believe he exaggerated to make a point. We do pay too many taxes in Norway, many of them don't even make sense. For instance, why is it that you have to pay more tax on your van or truck if you want back seats? I get the part where you're really not supposed to own a car in Norway, and rather get around on the rundown and hugely expensive public transportation, but once you do buy a car: does the government want to discourage car pooling, and make people buy more cars instead, or are they simply out to milk people's wallets any way they can. We pay the some of highest taxes on roads anywhere in the world, yet very little seems to be put back into building an adequate infrastructure. Nor do they seem to put much into public transportation either -- seeing as it is in poor shape (particularly in Oslo) and the most expensive in all of Europe. There doesn't seem to be much to justify the money we have to pay to the government when all they manage to do is mismanage it!
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terje_the_ma...
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
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posted September 27, 2004 01:40 PM |
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I seem to have misionterpreted some of your points, but concerning the mismanagement:
That could come from the fact that we haven't had a government with more than 50% of the parliment to back it since back in the 60's when Labour was supreme.
The fact that we have all these parties with contradicting goals (and ways to achieve them), makes it so that much that could be done, won't, because the people in charge can't agree on how to do it (I know this kinda sounds like a Nazi pamphlet, or something...).
Hopefully, this will change after the 2005 electionsm when the Green-Red coalition kicks the current coalition out of the govetnment quarters... 
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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LordLazy
Promising
Famous Hero
Wood cleaner
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posted September 27, 2004 02:21 PM |
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To be honest I think you both fellow Norwegians should stop crying, and do some real stuff to earn your use of our nice velfare system no offense
The thing that makes this country so great, for me at least, is mainly, the individuals right to form theyr own lifes. What you want to be, is what you will be
Also, claiming sweden worse better blahblah they probably have their stuff to, their just not whining about it If any of you two know anything real about the swedish politics, please let me know, I am interested in knowing
PS: right now though, I do agree that our beloved country would be better of without the football geek of a priest at the top my sents
Regards
EDIT: Also, when it comes to whining, Norwegians are one of a kind anyhow sad but true
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Tagged officially as Noobegian two years ago. This typographic material is strictly copyrighted. All situations containing abuse will be brought to court.
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terje_the_ma...
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
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posted September 29, 2004 03:43 PM |
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Yeah, we're good at whining...
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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RedSoxFan3
Admirable
Legendary Hero
Fan of Red Sox
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posted October 04, 2004 09:08 AM |
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Sometimes I think the goverment takes 80% of my pay.Then I come to my senses and realize its more like 90%
Shut up. It all comes back to the people.
Thats why you have such a developed welfare, education, health and who knows what else system.
You mean over half of it is pissed away and THEN it goes back to the people.
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Go Red Sox!
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Rindle
Tavern Dweller
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posted October 05, 2004 03:10 AM |
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Edited By: Rindle on 5 Oct 2004
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I seem to have misionterpreted some of your points, but concerning the mismanagement:
That could come from the fact that we haven't had a government with more than 50% of the parliment to back it since back in the 60's when Labour was supreme.
The fact that we have all these parties with contradicting goals (and ways to achieve them), makes it so that much that could be done, won't, because the people in charge can't agree on how to do it (I know this kinda sounds like a Nazi pamphlet, or something...).
Hopefully, this will change after the 2005 electionsm when the Green-Red coalition kicks the current coalition out of the govetnment quarters...
Well, Terje: while I agree that the current coalition government's inability to agree on policy matters are not very favorable, it's not as though this government changed the status quo on how Norway is run; the sky high taxes and backwards protocols on public spending were in place long before this government negotiated it's way into office. Did you know that interest rates are controlled by one private person? He decides when interest rates should go up or down. For instance, he can say: oh look at government spending! People have gotten tax cuts of about 0.00009%, now we have to compensate by raising interest rates 90% in order to prevent inflation over the next 900 years. And the politicians are kowtowing along saying "Oh no, we can't spend a penny more on hospitals or roads because interest rates will sky rocket!". Of course this example is exaggerated, but that's basically how it works. It's like the Emperors New Clothes, everybody is just going along with it because someone in a position of authority says it's so, even though no one truly understands it.
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To be honest I think you both fellow Norwegians should stop crying, and do some real stuff to earn your use of our nice velfare system
Well, Lord Lazy, let me see if I understand what you're trying to say here: I should start living on welfare?! Like you, perhaps? And what do you mean by "earn it"? As if paying more than half of my hard-earned money to the government isn't enough. I have a right to question what the government is doing with my money. Political leaders are supposed to be the elected representatives of the people, it's not as though they are the great builders of our nation that have bestowed upon us all of these blessings and we should all just be grateful and shut up. The people built this nation, the politicians were merely put there to manage it. If you owned a business, and the people you put in charge of it were mismanaging it, would you just shut up and say nothing? Or would you speak up about what was being done wrong?
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Also, claiming sweden worse better blahblah they probably have their stuff to, their just not whining about it
Does Sweden have problems too? You bet they do! And do they complain about it? If you have been anywhere in your life (besides Norway) you'll know that, no matter where you go, people will always complain about the incompetence of their elected leaders (more often than not, with good reason). Your claim that Swedes do not "whine" about their problems only tells me that you have very little knowledge of the world.
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PS: right now though, I do agree that our beloved country would be better of without the football geek of a priest at the top
Ah, so you do have some concerns about our beloved nation! But how will you ever be able to voice those concerns if you lack the ability to articulate them intelligently? You see, simply calling our good prime minister a "football geek of a priest" is only name-calling. If you truly believe that our current prime minister is doing our country a disservice then you need to at least be able to explain why, in a reasonably coherent manner.
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Sometimes I think the goverment takes 80% of my pay.Then I come to my senses and realize its more like 90%
Shut up. It all comes back to the people.
Thats why you have such a developed welfare, education, health and who knows what else system.
You mean over half of it is pissed away and THEN it goes back to the people.
lol
True.
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terje_the_ma...
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
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posted October 05, 2004 02:25 PM |
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Well, Terje: while I agree that the current coalition government's inability to agree on policy matters are not very favorable, it's not as though this government changed the status quo on how Norway is run; the sky high taxes and backwards protocols on public spending were in place long before this government negotiated it's way into office.
True. All the current administration has done is to cut taxes, so that the public budget will be even more under balance... And cut in welfare. And I should add that I think of privatization of welfare as cutting: Firms who think of their profits rather than their customers aren't fit to take care of old people, run hospitals, public transportation, etc.
The administration has done bad here, by not controlling the private welfare suppliers properly, so that they have mostly gotten away with their misdoings.
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Did you know that interest rates are controlled by one private person? He decides when interest rates should go up or down. For instance, he can say: Oh look at government spending!
I know; the chief of the Central Bank, Svein Gjedrem, or whatever. Allthough I thought the politicians (or the Minister of Finance) at least held him a little by the ears...
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People have gotten tax cuts of about 0.00009%, now we have to compensate by raising interest rates 90% in order to prevent inflation over the next 900 years. And the politicians are kowtowing along saying "Oh no, we can't spend a penny more on hospitals or roads because interest rates will sky rocket!". Of course this example is exaggerated, but that's basically how it works. It's like the Emperors New Clothes, everybody is just going along with it because someone in a position of authority says it's so, even though no one truly understands it.[/qoute]
Economics are truly incomprehensible. I read this quote by the most famous female economists in Norway's only decent paper (Klassekampen btw, translates with The Class Struggle). She said that the only reason for learning economics is to keep the economists from foling you...
And the public spending/interest rate circle is almost as weird as the inflation/unemployment circle... (High inflation, low unemployment, but you loose many businesses, which lead to high unemployment, and low inflation, which makes new businesses establish, which reduces unemployment, which raises inflation.... and so on... (I may be wrong on this one, though; my knowledge on this stuff is really basic...))
Btw, may I ask, just as a point of interest, what political party you support? I would have guessed on one of the major right parties (but Conservatives or LIberalists?).
As for myself, I'm a member of the Labour Youth, allthough a very inactive member...
And my sympathies lie more with the Red Election Alliance... (A communist party, for those non-Norwegians who have bothered to follow this...)
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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LordLazy
Promising
Famous Hero
Wood cleaner
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posted October 09, 2004 09:23 AM |
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To be honest I think you both fellow Norwegians should stop crying, and do some real stuff to earn your use of our nice velfare system
Well, Lord Lazy, let me see if I understand what you're trying to say here: I should start living on welfare?! Like you, perhaps? And what do you mean by "earn it"? As if paying more than half of my hard-earned money to the government isn't enough. I have a right to question what the government is doing with my money. Political leaders are supposed to be the elected representatives of the people, it's not as though they are the great builders of our nation that have bestowed upon us all of these blessings and we should all just be grateful and shut up. The people built this nation, the politicians were merely put there to manage it. If you owned a business, and the people you put in charge of it were mismanaging it, would you just shut up and say nothing? Or would you speak up about what was being done wrong?
haha well, as a fellow Norwegian you would know that most people here have been across the borders a few times in life I've seen most of sweden, much of Finland, much of Denmark, much of Germany, and also much of Austria Also, read papers there, there my friend you have just what kind of accusation as you have stated belove, me name calling bladdibla
What I meant is not paying your little things, but actually sharing in a political way, by that I mean that you actually envolve directly into the local political bladdibla
Also, if not for lack of social intelligence, you would pretty easy know that my post only were a way of talking, not an accusation
my points
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Rindle
Tavern Dweller
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posted October 25, 2004 02:40 AM |
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Terje wrote:
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Economics are truly incomprehensible. I read this quote by the most famous female economists in Norway's only decent paper (Klassekampen btw, translates with The Class Struggle). She said that the only reason for learning economics is to keep the economists from foling you...
True, but not even the experts can claim to truly understand the Central Bank chief's decisions regarding the adjustment of interest rates. This has been a topic in many of the national newspapers.
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Btw, may I ask, just as a point of interest, what political party you support? I would have guessed on one of the major right parties (but Conservatives or LIberalists?).
Well I have a bone to pick with all of the parties, but I sort of lean towards FRP (Progress Party) simply because they're the only ones who have consistently talked about spending more of our huge oil fund on things we need (like roads and hospitals). Also, what I like about the Progress Party's leader, Carl I. Hagen, is his ability to cut through all the political none sense in a debate and express what a lot of people are frustrated with in Norway today; if we're the richest country in the world why do we still have inadequate healthcare and an underdeveloped infrastructure? On the other hand, what I don't like about him is that he is a right wing Christian politician like Bush, albeit much more intelligent and far less of a puppet. Hagen has pretty much shaped the party from small and inconsequential into one of the most popular parties in Norway today.
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As for myself, I'm a member of the Labour Youth, allthough a very inactive member...
And my sympathies lie more with the Red Election Alliance... (A communist party, for those non-Norwegians who have bothered to follow this...)
Although I appreciate the communist ideal of sharing equally, the reality is that communism has never worked due to the inherent flaws of the system: no communist regime has ever achieved the utopian Marxist ideal of a "classless society" and allowing "human beings to manage their own affairs rationally and co-operatively". Instead, the communist parties that have achieved power have been oppressive dictatorships.
As for the Red Election Alliance: although I don't agree with them, I like the leader, Aslak Sira Myhre. He is quite a character! You always see him out protesting against something (like all the G8 type meetings or foreign Head of State visits to Norway), and complaining furiously while he's being pinned down by police lol. But he seems like a very nice guy and, although idealistic and naive, he's an intelligent young man who is very well spoken and thoughtful.
Lazy wrote:
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haha well, as a fellow Norwegian you would know that most people here have been across the borders a few times in life I've seen most of sweden, much of Finland, much of Denmark, much of Germany, and also much of Austria Also, read papers there...
And did you read nothing but high praise for the government? Or did you read that the Swedish government is subjected to as much criticism as in any other western country!
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.... there my friend you have just what kind of accusation as you have stated belove, me name calling bladdibla
In English, please.
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What I meant is not paying your little things, but actually sharing in a political way, by that I mean that you actually envolve directly into the local political bladdibla
Interesting. If you don't mind me asking, what type of local political "bladdibla" are you involved in?
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Also, if not for lack of social intelligence, you would pretty easy know that my post only were a way of talking, not an accusation
Well my friend, here's a little lesson in social tact for ya: using wording such as "stop crying" and "earn your right" will come across as a bit accusatory in most contexts. And what do you mean by "only a way of talking"? Are we to understand that your words are metaphors or an analogy for an unrelated topic? lol
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apricane
Hired Hero
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posted October 25, 2004 09:29 PM |
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Oh PLEEEEASE.. In Denmark, you get like 5% of your money from working, the rest goes to the taxes.
Denmark is at place 17? That sounds wrong. We are usually higher arent we? Thats a lame conclusion, everybody knows living in denmark is better than US (no offence)
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terje_the_ma...
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
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posted October 26, 2004 03:37 PM |
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True, but not even the experts can claim to truly understand the Central Bank chief's decisions regarding the adjustment of interest rates. This has been a topic in many of the national newspapers.
I think the guys who just got the Nobel Prize in Economics won it because they had thought this thing out: Because political leadership is unstable, we need someone to stabilize them. Enter the independence of the National Banks. If you have an institution besides the political ones to manage the major points of our economy, you can get a more stable one.
Sounds a lousy deal to me. What's the guarantee that this institution is completely objective?
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Well I have a bone to pick with all of the parties, but I sort of lean towards FRP (Progress Party) simply because they're the only ones who have consistently talked about spending more of our huge oil fund on things we need (like roads and hospitals).
Ah, my least favourite party. Although they should be complimented for sometimes standing up for the "little guy", I think that their politics isn't good for most people (one of their favourite expressions, btw...).
Lower taxes, more public spending, no immigration, no foreign aid, and all that sound like a solution that's a little too egoistic to me. Also, they are too much on the side of the corporations, when, if they support "most people" as they claim to do, they should be supporting the unions and working people. Also, they tend to whip up the population against the unions during wage negotiantions and strikes. Not good in my book, you you claim to be the protector of the people.
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Also, what I like about the Progress Party's leader, Carl I. Hagen, is his ability to cut through all the political none sense in a debate and express what a lot of people are frustrated with in Norway today;
I see Hagen as nothing but a demagog with nearly perfect retorical skills. Also, his politics is full of brown scum, like his immigration politics (throwing a few racists out of the party won't convince me that his party isn't full of them...).
Ok, he may be able to cut through the "non sense" as you call it sometimes, but I've seen him plenty of time whining about stuff and generally behaving not as a clear sighted politician, but a boy who's been punished by his elders and doesn't understand what he's done wrong (a horrible metaphor; I know, but it was the best I could think of...)
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if we're the richest country in the world why do we still have inadequate healthcare and an underdeveloped infrastructure?
I wholeheartedly agree that these are flaws that shouldn't exist in a counrty as rich as Norway, but I think that with FrP in the government, while these problems may have been solved (which I honestly doubt they'd manage), other problems would rise as mushrooms after a rainfall...
Besides, Carl I. Hagen is the politician in Norway who does the most to stigmatize parts of the population who doesn't agree with him, and since a prime minister should be someone everyone could gather behind, I don't think a guy who insults 70% of the population would do a good job...
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On the other hand, what I don't like about him is that he is a right wing Christian politician like Bush, albeit much more intelligent and far less of a puppet. Hagen has pretty much shaped the party from small and inconsequential into one of the most popular parties in Norway today.
Amen to the parts about him being a right wing Christian nutcase.
As for Hagen as an independent politician, I would say that he isn't, as he seem to be completely dominated by the simple solutions he has figured out will sound good to the (uneducated) general public. Like his suggestion of building reception centers for imigrants/asylum seekers (he doesn't destinct between the two, so it's hard to guess who he means. Probably both, though...) in the neighbouring countries of the homecountries of the immigrants/asylum seekers. How would that work out in the case of Ethiopia? Ethipoia are surrounded by countries it's been at war with. Which neighbouring country would he use? Sudan? Eritrea? Somalia? Or how about his suggestion that we should try to help the refugees where they live? How does that fit in with his other suggestion, that we make cuts in the foreign aid? No logic, imo...
Also, I don't like his fanatical Israel support, or his attempt to fish conservative Cristian voters by making the government twist press support from secularized papers like Klassekampen, Morgenbladet, etc., to the extreme conservative Christian papers Magazinet, Korsets Seier and Norge i Dag (I don't bother to translate these titles, as I think no non-Norwegians are reading this anyway...).
As for Aslak Sira Myre, I think he has left that position. He's a literature critic in Klassekampen, now. Torstein Dahle is the current leader of RV...
@Apricane: I think that Denmark would have scored higher if not for their inhumane and Fascistoid immigration policies...
And high tex levels helps secure a high rate of social security, social stability, and lots of other stuff.
Btw, I noticed that despite the high tax levels, Nordic countries hold 4 of the 5 top places in WTOs (I think...) ranking of the worlds healthiest economies. In your faces, right-wing-high-taxes-kills-buisness-people!
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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LordLazy
Promising
Famous Hero
Wood cleaner
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posted October 31, 2004 08:37 PM |
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Rindle: I will comment you no further, you misunderstood my whole text above, and I have not time to answer you, nor do I feel like I could give you a polite answer at the time beeing, you dont understand what I mean, and wont even if I wrote page up and down and up and down again
Oh, and bout the involved in local politic thingy, no, I'm not involved, thats why I dont whine. I have no time for political discussions at time beeing, due to both full university education and part time job, which as you hopefully understand, takes up most of my time.
I dont like the way you made this a personal thing. BTW: what local politic thing do you support? as I see, you only post in this very thread, your are interested in politics, is this just tv thoughts? (you sitting wathcing tv2, arguing with yourself about the different political sides, or are you involved in political stuff yourself?
I have no insight in the political sides myself, and therefore, I wont comment your opinions, but please, stop whine that were the point of my first post at least, you did not take that, thats what I call lack of social intelligence, feel free to have another opinion on that particular case
Also, one last note, let me think what I need to and want to think, I never insulted you in person, and I dont think you should either, leave it that way
Regards
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Tagged officially as Noobegian two years ago. This typographic material is strictly copyrighted. All situations containing abuse will be brought to court.
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Defreni
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted October 31, 2004 11:46 PM |
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Oh PLEEEEASE.. In Denmark, you get like 5% of your money from working, the rest goes to the taxes.
Denmark is at place 17? That sounds wrong. We are usually higher arent we? Thats a lame conclusion, everybody knows living in denmark is better than US (no offence)
Hehee, yup we have the highest tax in the world.
And yup I agree with our Norwegian friends that Sweden is probably the place in the world to live.
But one thing you must not forget. It is actually a Damocles sword to find so much oil. Yes that sounds like a stupid statement, but matter of fact it is a curse for most countries to have the main source of income being just one export good. Just look at what happened in Venezuela when they found oil. They actually went from being one of the richest countries in Latin America to becoming one of the poorest.
So Terje before you start advocating for Norway to spend to much of your oil billions think about the fact that most economist from all over the spectrum tout Norway for their responsible of way of administering your riches.
Regards
Defreni
PS: Concerning the scandinavian way of greeting foreigners I can only say. Sweden is the place to go. Denmark is also becoming more and more racist, and right-winged fanatics are gaining political power in Denmark. Sad but true.
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terje_the_ma...
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
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posted November 01, 2004 05:27 PM |
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But one thing you must not forget. It is actually a Damocles sword to find so much oil. Yes that sounds like a stupid statement, but matter of fact it is a curse for most countries to have the main source of income being just one export good. Just look at what happened in Venezuela when they found oil. They actually went from being one of the richest countries in Latin America to becoming one of the poorest.
I've never heard this about Venezuela? Could you enlighten me or post a link?
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So Terje before you start advocating for Norway to spend to much of your oil billions think about the fact that most economist from all over the spectrum tout Norway for their responsible of way of administering your riches.
I'm hardly the one who's advocating increased public spending; I may have said that we should use a little more to improve the quality (or maybe rather, quantity ) of the Norwegian health system, and the educational system. But this isn't counted as public spending in Economics, as far as I recall; it's counted as investments, so it wouldn't hurt our economy very much.
I am actually a fan of a restrictive economic policy (small public spending, high taxes, etc) in most respects (except that I of course want the government to by up the stocks in the recently privatized public oil company, the ditto phone company, etc.).
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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Defreni
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted November 01, 2004 08:56 PM |
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Sure Terje, I would love to post a link, but frankly I have most of my knowledge of this issue from a textbook of mine.
Michael Todaro and Stephen Smith "Economic Development", its a textbook about development economics, and it from this I also have most of my knowledge about EU and USA preaching free trade through IMF, and at the same time putting a huge import tax on most agricultural goods comming from the 3. world.
But it shouldnt be to dificult finding an economic textbook about the difficulties a nation is faced with if it only have one major export good (?)
Every single economist I have read ranging from Neo-liberals from IMF to dependincy economist from AU, all preach that any given economy should be as diversified as possible.
Regards
Defreni
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terje_the_ma...
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
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posted November 02, 2004 11:08 AM |
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But it shouldnt be to dificult finding an economic textbook about the difficulties a nation is faced with if it only have one major export good (?)
Every single economist I have read ranging from Neo-liberals from IMF to dependincy economist from AU, all preach that any given economy should be as diversified as possible.
So true. If a country, such as Norway, comes to rely on one good only for the basis of it's entire industry, they are pretty much screwed...
And despite all the praise we've gotten, Norways indutry has been on the way down since we strted to pump up oil in the 70s. The only major industries we have, as far as I can recall in a hurry, is some aluminium refining factories and a few other industries that require lots and lots of power to work.
Because we have such an abundance of natural raw materials (oil, timber), we have sadly begun to totally rely on the export of these goods, while countries who do not have this, builds up industry that can manufacture and refine raw materials, which they import (relatively) cheaply and export (relatively) expensive.
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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Asmodean
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Heroine at the weekend.
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posted November 02, 2004 11:44 AM |
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Hey! Don't forget the good sales from your hand lubric-...I mean lotion
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To err is human, to arr is pirate.
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