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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Atlantis town (with pics)
Thread: Atlantis town (with pics) This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT»
B0rsuk
B0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted August 13, 2004 06:08 PM

....because you may as well say that all land units should be able to travel underwater without any problems. It will make as much sense.

Using the same argumentation style as yours: prove that you're not a tomato.

I'm a bit tired for lenghty analisys. If you feel it's all right that soft water creatures can crawl with their soft naked bodies on land, yet YOU CANT'T do the same... and everything is all right - I can't help you. Not to mention "details" like lungs or dehydration. Strangely, 5 of your creatures are "upper half of land creature(human), lower half - something else". Put all these creatures next to each other and look how do they look like. It's like having  Genie, Efreet, and 3 others with different colors... but worse. I can overlook Naga, who is half snake (and has no problems on land, more less), and water elemental as summon (won't last long enough), but as far as I am concerned, I would prefer to have Forge in HOMM games instead of Atlantis done this way.
Having a "sea" serpent who crawls on the ground, but cannot submerge is great. Same goes for Kraken, who's definitely very aquatic creature.

I recommend you downloading Dominions2 demo. The game is real pain to micromanage, but there are many great things about it, including music, wonderful backstories and unit, item, spell descriptions, battle mechanics, underwater mechanics....
In that game you don't get following problem, because Lobsters and Crab Hybrids have to stay underwater. Even Kraken (one of Pretender Gods) has to stay underwater. Even through Atlantians (who compose most of army) are vaguably humanoid, they have strong disadventages on land.
The game does great job mixing MANY mythologies, while preserving very believable mechanics and realism. But I guess Homm mechanics is very stagnant, and it can't evolve too much. This is as much bless as a curse.

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Svarog
Svarog


Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
posted August 16, 2004 04:22 AM

Quote:
Put all these creatures next to each other and look how do they look like. It's like having Genie, Efreet, and 3 others with different colors... but worse.

I don’t think so. If you don’t like the aquatic town in general, that’s alright, but I don’t think they look a circus band. The pics I provided are all in different styles, so that’s where that impression might come from, but my intention was to only describe the creatures without using so much words. Naturally if an Atlantis town would be designed, they would all be in tone.
Quote:
but as far as I am concerned, I would prefer to have Forge in HOMM games instead of Atlantis done this way.

That’s the worst possible critique I’ve ever got. Lol. Say what you want, but preferring Forge over Atlantis is more painful for my ego than a thousand words.

About that game you mentioned; I’ve never played it. But heroes is not a Frankenstein of ideas from other games imo. It just doesn’t work that way with heroes - creatures wont be able to go underwater without spoiling the game before and changing the core concept.

Now, concerning your criticism of the viability of Atlantis creatures to move on land:

I solved the problem with the movement itself. It’s the realism thing that stays.
Lets see how many of the Atlantean creatures actually do have lungs (or sort of):
Pirate checked
Merman checked
Oceanid ???
Siren checked
Nereid checked
Hippocampus checked
Naga checked
Kraken no
Sea Serpent checked (serpents actually breathe air)
Scylla checked
Leviathan ???

We’ve got two fictional creatures, Oceanid and Leviathan, that we don’t know how they breathe, and one Kraken (basically a squid), that breathes with gills.
We can easily suppose that the Oceanid and Leviathan have amphibious character, and are as such capable of breathing air. The only problem is the Kraken, which I admit I don’t have a solution for. If he’s such an unrealistic anomaly detrimental for the viability of the entire Atlantis town, then we can kick him out as well (although I wouldn’t; after all we’re not making a documentary, but a game). Don’t ban the entire alignment, because of one bad apple.
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B0rsuk
B0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted August 16, 2004 04:37 PM

Dominions2 is a whole fountain of ideas - but things like crappy graphics won't let it become too popular. And it is VERY different from Heroes, to the point where most solutions simply can't be used in homm. I seriously think it's worth downloading the demo. At least the music is great.
One complaint people have about is: you don't have control over your army during battle. You give  them orders before battle and they execute it fairly well (but unfortunatelly light cavalry (with bows) doesn't work properly, they don't use their movement advantage).
What people do not realise is that this makes 17 player games amazingly fast ! (there are 17 unique nations/races with good descriptions). All players do their turns at_the_same_time, then host presses "new turn" and all orders are executed. You only wait for other players if they need more time than you to make their turns !
===================
Back on topic: there are numerous terrains in Homm games which may be very nasty nasty to aquatic creatures, especially those who slide over ground with their unprotected body. Think about a snail making its way thru Snow, Desert or rocky Rough terrain.  There are some things I simply can't accept, neither in reality nor fantasy game/book. I like it when fantasy world seem to have their own rules - fictional, but still some kind of rules.

I'm not exactly against Atlantis idea, but I'd like to explore other ways of implementing it first. In Dom2 Atlantis and R'leyh (two aquatic nations) have problems conquering the land - their units have strong disadventages on land... same as land units underwater (hard to do and generally in later game). Part of units simply can't travel on land.
So... they use slaves ! Apart from specific, national armies (which need various castles to be built), there are Indies (Independents). They can be recruited anywhere. While they don't kick ass, they have better heavy cavalry/infantry than some nations, reasonable archers (not all nations have archers !), and research.
------------------
I wounder how this kind of Atlantis would work in Homm.. using neutral armies for conquering, and their own mostly for defense. Perhaps not too well, because there's that nasty "combine all units into single army" strategy in Heroes, which is usually a suicide in Dom2. In Dominions2, you need to hold the ground.

Expect few new topics to pop up soon, I think I got an idea...

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Svarog
Svarog


Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
posted August 17, 2004 02:28 AM

I checked out that Dominions game, and it doesnt have much in common with heroes. Its not even a fantasy game for crying out loud! If you feel like implementing ideas from there in heroes, you'd have to give really strong arguments, cause they are two different concepts.

Slaves pulling the water creatures?! lol. And you call yourself someone who promotes realism? Bah!

Quote:
Think about a snail making its way thru Snow, Desert or rocky Rough terrain.

My my, arent we getting tedious. Who said anything about snails?

Look, I'm little bored with your reasons honestly. I really cant grasp the tireless insisting on authentic realism all the time. And this is not just for you, but all realism freaks out there.

Heroes is a game, a game that belongs to the fantasy genre. By definition it isnt realism. Even more, there are more unrealistic elements to it than realistic really. Starting with: the time concept is represented with movement, a thousands imp fit into one hex, creatures come once a week only, an army of millions may fit in one boat.... and so many other basic concepts. And the reason for that is that when they develop a game they dont start from the realistic presentation of history, but rather the gameplay itself. The realism only stems as a mean of adapting the gameplay concept to the preconcieved ideas about the world that players have and might help them identify more closely with the game.
I know, unrealism is fine, but to some extent, you'd say, but what some of you are doing is almost fanatical. What can I say about the objection that Krakens cant breathe air? Well, what about vampires on sunlight, efreet on snow, water elementals in the desert..? Should the devils put anoraks on when they go north, or should we give them skiis cause they are bare footed? Should the vampires carry an umbrella with them? Should water elementals have slaves with buckets of water for refreshment?
If you answered yes, to any of this questions, then you are a freak. Realism exists to make the game more enjoyable, not to dictate the rules. Whenever its forceful implementation takes away something of the gameplay, or makes the game silly or stupid, it mustn't have the priority.

And that would go for the Atlantis town too. If people like variety of towns (and they DO) and that would make the game much more enjoyable, then there must be a way devised for those things to be built in the game. If someone has any auggestions how to make something better for the Atlantis town, I would gladly accept them for discussion. However, mentioning slaves as a means for Atlantis creatures to move on land, when they are entirely capable to do it on their own, is something in my opinion stupid and counter-productive for the constructive discussion that might be led for this town.

I wish there were more people with serious criticism for this thread (besides Burusk). I was hoping Hydra would include his respected opinion. Or gerdahs and other members that always make meaningful posts with excellent ideas. Well, I'm still here.
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B0rsuk
B0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted August 17, 2004 06:17 PM

Quote:
I checked out that Dominions game, and it doesnt have much in common with heroes. Its not even a fantasy game for crying out loud!


It IS a fantasy game. Sorcerors and priestesses transforming into giant spiders when they're slain, shapeshifters, vampires, lots of demons and other to summon, amulets, dozens of magical items, pretender gods, titans, undead, Cthulhu creatures...
It has stuff from/inspired by many mythologies, and many new. The authors (basically two swedish history students) write excellent (and sometimes fun) item descriptions, like that of a horn amulet "this is a very manly amulet, and it is said that a woman wearing it will gain a low voice, or even grow a beard". In some ways it has better athmosphere than Homm games (because it goes deeper).
The fantasy aspect is not immediately apparent, but summoning creatures and magical item crafting are both VERY important aspects of the game. Even if most nations' basic units consist of mostly humans.

Quote:

If you feel like implementing ideas from there in heroes, you'd have to give really strong arguments, cause they are two different concepts.


I don't feel, because they're incompatible.

Quote:

Slaves pulling the water creatures?! lol. And you call yourself someone who promotes realism? Bah!


You said that, so blame yourself. I said they "use" them. Force into the army. Whole branch of R'leyh consists of atlantian slaves.
Water nations make other races fight for them. It is unthinkable in homm, because homm players can't deal with not being able to recruit all the creatures, and it makes them sad. In meanwhile dom2 is more about when, where, and what to recruit, as different units have different purposes (even if they look very similar at first). There are armor piercers, ranged units and mages, heavy infantry and cavalry, cheapass swarm units to exhaust heavy elite types and protect others from arrows, specialised "weakling killers"...

Quote:

Quote:
Think about a snail making its way thru Snow, Desert or rocky Rough terrain.

My my, arent we getting tedious. Who said anything about snails?


Me. I'm suprised you didn't find this one out. Water creatures are similar to snails in the way they need lots of water - but more. Fishes certainly need water.

Quote:

Look, I'm little bored with your reasons honestly. I really cant grasp the tireless insisting on authentic realism all the time. And this is not just for you, but all realism freaks out there.



Name a single reason why normal, land Homm units should be unable to go underwater. There would be more to explore, and it's fantasy, after all ! I want to send my fire elementals to conquer a sunken ship, pearl mine (oysters, actually), and more. It should delight you, because it uses your reasoning.
I want to finally experience Month Of Jellyfish, and have that jellyfish, or at least sea serpent stacks to appear everywhere on the map. Free guards for my mines, plus I'm a necromancer.

Quote:

Heroes is a game, a game that belongs to the fantasy genre. By definition it isnt realism. Even more, there are more unrealistic elements to it than realistic really.


And what gives you right to decide what is good, and what bad fantasy ? Read above. I want to have my enjoyment, too.

Quote:

Starting with: the time concept is represented with movement, a thousands imp fit into one hex, creatures come once a week only, an army of millions may fit in one boat....



Good thing you reminded me about it. Homm serries could use introduction of:
a) simple count*level limit per hex, and
b) small, but ultimately significant, army upkeep cost.

....and this isn't just for realism. I'm concerned about gameplay, too. The current system has this disadventage: it makes it hard or downright impossible to balance some things. Most glaring example: usefulness of lightning type spells (direct damage). They're powerful early on, useful in middle game and waste of time later. Especially with the farming tendency (and megalomania) Homm players tend to love so much - 40 castles per maps, hundreds of artifacts and piles of gold and resources lying everywhere is not uncommon to see in Homm maps, particulary the fan-made ones. Week after week, or rather - month after month, because many players enjoy playing for many months - all stuff which isn't percent-based becomes meaningless.
Do you fear the castle towers in Heroes3 ? Does Lightining Bolt, or even Implosion mean anything against 25 behemots ? Do you think First Aid is even remotely useful after first two weeks of game ? Or perhaps the "moat" from Tower is scary ?
These are all victims of time-honored tradition - the army size getting out of control. Really, it would be much easier to balance stuff (and add new content) if there was some kind of upkeep.

Quote:
What can I say about the objection that Krakens cant breathe air?
 It isn't as much about ability to breathe, but having a squid crawling over snow, rough terrain, desert, or just plain dirt. It makes me sick, even if I'm fan of both fantasy and sf. Perhaps limited amount of time, but not regularly.
It would be in my opinion nicer (and more athmosphere) if
a) land to water ratio was at least 3:1
b) water creatures were making quick raids on land, a bit viking style... then fall back.

Quote:

Well, what about vampires on sunlight,


There are many, many stories on vampires, and none two describe them same way. One time they can bear sunlight, other time they can't. In some stories they can't go near mirrors, in others they don't because they make no reflection and therefore their disguise is at risk.
And about water - the stories I read were mostly about not being able to _cross_ water, and only the flowing one. So overall it's moot - nothing can be proven in this field.
Quote:

efreet on snow,

it's only one creature, from one particular town, and doesn't happen too frequently. Especially in Homm4 where most people take Nightmares instead... because you have to think hard to find reasonable use for efreet, and nightmares just plain kick ass.

Quote:

water elementals in the desert..?


hardly ever occurs in homm3 because there is, frankly, no desert (bwahaha!). More seriously, on rough terrain - they are summons, not regulars. Regulars exist only in AB, which isn't too popular of an expansion (other than random map generator people don't seem to like it). The confux itself isn't very popular and a lot people say it's not only unbalanced, but also their creatures look too alike. Which reminds me of Atlantis, because there are so many upper half human - lower something aquatic surgery types.
Water elementals in Heroes4 are pretty rare creatures, too. It doesn't happen all that often - but otherwise I would complain, I can assure you. Anyway, even if we insist that players tend to like recruiting mostly water elementals - I don't remember many people saying Heroes4 is a groundbreaking, genre defining, or even successful game is good example of how things should be made.
Anyway, what is single creature compared to whole town ?

Quote:

Should the devils put anoraks on when they go north, or should we give them skiis cause they are bare footed?


We are talking creatures who don't walk, because they prefer to simply teleport. Which counters the bare-footed thing, and more. It reminds me that in christian mythology devil(s) are capable of sending visions, possessing people, and in general - are very powerful beings, superhuman. It's not like angels need furs in snowy terrain or water in desert, or anything for that matter... so why should fallen angels ?

Quote:
Should water elementals have slaves with buckets of water for refreshment?


Answered earlier, but hey - great idea for Kingdom Of Loathing game !

Quote:

And that would go for the Atlantis town too. If people like variety of towns (and they DO) and that would make the game much more enjoyable, then there must be a way devised for those things to be built in the game.


I'm still thinking of another way. Be patient, I need some time to polish my ideas before I come up with someting.. and post writing takes time.

Quote:

However, mentioning slaves as a means for Atlantis creatures to move on land,

...is 100% your idea, which I must say I envy you. In Terry Pratchett's books there's a tale of sea trolls. The respected hunter cast goes to travel the land on wooden carts with wheels and sails (!). It was great fun.
Back on topic - I already said you are wrong, and you took too many assumptions.

Quote:

when they are entirely capable to do it on their own,

Strange assumption. You can't say you are basing this on real life, so it must be fantasy. Now your fantasy is automatically good, and my not.
. Sirens and pirates certainly can, but no octopus travels the land over here. I guess the climate is too cold here in Poland ;]. That's too bad.

Quote:
I wish there were more people with serious criticism for this thread (besides Burusk). I was hoping Hydra would include his respected opinion.


I bet the Hydra is taking a good bath in a swampy pond somewhere in Amazonia, it's holiday after all.
Strange, your nickname suggested some slavian origin, yet you made mistake spelling my name. No offene, It just confused me.

I hope I didn't mess any tags because somehow I can't edit my post. Perhaps some kind of mod punishment, damned if I know why.

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B0rsuk
B0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted August 17, 2004 06:21 PM

One important sentence I forgot to add. Once you make all atlantis creatures into land dwellers, able to travel land freely and unable to submerge... all you can say to prove they're aquatic is: "They're blue".

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Svarog
Svarog


Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
posted August 18, 2004 03:07 AM

I’ve got full hands of work, so I better start immediately.
Quote:
[about the slaves] You said that, so blame yourself.

Well, show me where I initionally made that brilliant proposal. You mentioned it as a possible alternative found in dom2, for which I stilll claim and will always claim is incredibly stupid for heroes, even for dominions by the sound of it.
Quote:
Water nations make other races fight for them. It is unthinkable in homm, because homm players can't deal with not being able to recruit all the creatures, and it makes them sad.

no no! Don’t blame heroes players. You must understand that heroes and dom2 is not the same game, and in heroes not being able to recruit a creature, as long as that creature can be recruited in a town, is a major anomaly. There’s only the option for a creature pattern, the likes of homm4 sea monster, but having it as neutral creature only, unable for recruitment, is almost like not having it at all. And since it’s able to walk on solid ground (ship’s deck), it might as well be able to walk on other solid grounds. That’s the part about ability, not realism. As for that second part, it can easily be solved by not including sea creatures with fins and seal-like awkward movement, although even that wouldn’t be a disaster.
Quote:
Water creatures are similar to snails in the way they need lots of water - but more. Fishes certainly need water.

That’s a strawman’s argument. Well, laundry services need a lot of water too. Why not make that comparisson with laundry services as creatures then? It sure discredits my idea even more.
But the problem with the snail is that it’s stupid having it as a creature, not because it needs a lot of water. It’s soft and squishy, and tiny and slow. Kraken is hard, huge, medium fast and rough skinned. You should read more about Krakens if you think he’s just an ordinary squid. Further on about Krakens, I explained the way he moves (octopus like). Are you against the beholder’s movement too?, though Kraken would look more natural, since beholder is more like ballet dancer.
Quote:
Name a single reason why normal, land Homm units should be unable to go underwater.

Another strawman. If the realism we have was about going underwater, then it would be worth considering. You cannot adjust an entire environment in an unnatural way, so that some other unnatural things in it may happen, just to prove a point. And also, would gameplay gain something by implementing underwater level, and creatures going there? Cathegorical NO! End of argument.
Quote:
And what gives you right to decide what is good, and what bad fantasy ?

Well, if directly answering to the question, there is no good and bad fantasy (unrealism more accurately; since fantasy/mythology in the case of heroes is realism). There’s just justified and unjustified unrealism. The first being when there are no gameplay sacrifices, i.e. the gameplay goes as planned, and the second being something extremely stupid, which is a matter of subjective judgement (e.g. mine says slaves, bubbles, magic etc are stupid means for aquatic creatures locomotion).  But I would be more concerned with what is justified and unjustified realism. The first when there’s no harm to gameplay, and the second when there is harm (just as in your case of not implementing atlantis).
Quote:
Do you fear the castle towers in Heroes3 ? Does Lightining Bolt, or even Implosion mean anything against 25 behemots ? Do you think First Aid is even remotely useful after first two weeks of game ? Or perhaps the "moat" from Tower is scary ?

Well, concerning the paragraph about army sizes, I think its off topic, so I wont discuss it (theres a thread like that), but I don’t agree with you solutions, just for the record.
And about the questions:
-Yes, they are useful in the beginning. They can be improved by making them depend on the hero stats too.
-Yes, if you have like 20 power, implosion does mean a lot against 25 behemoths.
-Yes. In fact in first two weeks its not really useful. Its most useful middlegame.
-Yes, it can be more, if just as in Tower, the damage land mines take depends on the Power of the defending hero.
Quote:
It would be in my opinion nicer (and more athmosphere) if
a) land to water ratio was at least 3:1
b) water creatures were making quick raids on land, a bit viking style... then fall back.

Quick raids? Does that mean they are unable to be recruited in an army? If so, I’ll direct you to one of the above paragraphs where I discussed that.
Any other option when they are available for recruitement, but land travel is not allowed, is not a viable one at all imo.
Quote:
it's only one creature, from one particular town, and doesn't happen too frequently.

Now what? Am I supposed to count the thousands of examples of creatures not acting realistically. Those examples were just few funny ones, not my full ammunition of facts. If its not devils (because of their power) who are barefooted,  then its gogs. They are not isolated examples. And the “its not used” argument is invalid. They were made to be used and people have no problems with them. And btw, there is desert in homm3. maybe you should play that game often, instead of dom2.
Quote:
[conflux] Which reminds me of Atlantis, because there are so many upper half human - lower something aquatic surgery types.

Look pal, I never make up creatures. Those creatures are all real, and as authentic to mythology as they can be. If that’s surgery then I’m not the doctor, but our ancestors and their lore, which I absolutely adore. And yes, all mythological creatures are surgery.
Quote:
”[walking on land for atlantis creatures]when they are entirely capable to do it on their own,”

Strange assumption. You can't say you are basing this on real life, so it must be fantasy.

When I say capable, I mean the way they move (that I described on each) looks prefectly natural. Of course it is fantasy! Hallelujah! They are fantastical creatures, but not from mine, not from your fantasy, but from the global fantasy embodied in folklore and mythology.
Quote:
Once you make all atlantis creatures into land dwellers, able to travel land freely and unable to submerge... all you can say to prove they're aquatic is: "They're blue".

No, wait. They are not the same as other races. They have water walk! And their movement on non-native land is virtually handicapped (so not "freely"), which would make them unwanted and likely to lose very quickly on entirely land maps. That is a clear indication that they don’t cope with land as good as they cope with water.
Quote:
Strange, your nickname suggested some slavian origin, yet you made mistake spelling my name. No offene, It just confused me.

Well, I’m sorry about that. I’m from the southern most and you’re from the northern most Slavic country (Russia aside; it’s all over the world ), so I guess that adds up to the difference. We don’t have Bursuk in our language.

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Daystar
Daystar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
posted August 20, 2004 09:30 PM

just a thought for movement. you know how in HMM3 they have a puddle when water elementals die? well, mabey the creature could be like that. you see their heads and possibly tails, but part of them is under the water.

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AMtwis
AMtwis


Famous Hero
Wannabe-Pixelguy
posted August 20, 2004 09:51 PM

well, in that case, would you like a moving water puddle? I don't think that it would look so good. It would be almost like a flubber: One moment a puddle, the next, a mermaid.
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Back from the Dead
posted August 20, 2004 09:54 PM

No, i mean the creatures are in the puddle.
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AMtwis
AMtwis


Famous Hero
Wannabe-Pixelguy
posted August 20, 2004 09:58 PM

Yeah, but My opinion is that I don't think that a moving water puddle would be the greatest
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Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
posted August 20, 2004 10:01 PM

do you prefer a big floating bubble that could be popped by a tap from a swordsman? also if they just float that would look weird and akward.
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AMtwis
AMtwis


Famous Hero
Wannabe-Pixelguy
posted August 20, 2004 10:04 PM

well, the best should be if you could just let the move on the ground, like regular units. The water elemental from H3. The sea-creatures with tail couldbe able to move simlar to that. Because when fighting, say a magog throws a fire ball inte a puddle of water`?
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Back from the Dead
posted August 20, 2004 10:09 PM

Just to continue this little digital spar, how would an octopus walk on land? it would look realy weierd walking like a spider. also, some creatures might need water to survive.
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AMtwis
AMtwis


Famous Hero
Wannabe-Pixelguy
posted August 20, 2004 10:13 PM

well, the octopus (or kraken) would, as I imagine it, crawl with the tentacles forward, backward in reality, but it would probably look more dangeroes that way. And the creatures that need water.. well, If a water elemental don't need more water to survive, maybe we could just say that they have evolved to amphibians?
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Back from the Dead
posted August 20, 2004 10:17 PM

amphibians are good.  i guess i dont realy care what they do as long as they put somthing over the um... female porabolas.
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Malekith
Malekith


Adventuring Hero
pRr..
posted August 25, 2004 01:24 PM
Edited By: Malekith on 25 Aug 2004

I like antlantis town idea but how some creatures can walk ! It will be a great if we get more towns than h4 and this town don't replace any else town. =)
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gerdash
gerdash


Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
posted September 13, 2004 08:40 PM

Quote:
Leviathan: you couldnt have picked better. although, how the hell can he move on land?
btw not quite sure but isn't leviathan female?
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btw i think that sea horse on land is much, much better than kraken on land. nevertheless i would think it weird if an inland mine was guarded by sea horses (after a month of sea horse) and a whirlpool was guarded by efreet (after a month of efreet).

i would quite gladly tolerate sea horses and some other amphibious creatures being half human or half horse if the alternative was seeing a coastal town conquered by water-only creatures.

btw dragon turtle could be a potential sea creature that could somewhat travel on land, although i think it would look much cooler withfish-like fins that would restrict it to water only. the idea of the creature does look very much like mythological creatures but i am not sure about it's folklore origin, maybe it was purely dungeons&dragons or some other modern invention.

imho kraken and leviathan are a must for sea town, but i don't agree to those creatures crawling on land.

imho leviathan should attack ships much like attacking castle gate in homm4. ships could be smaller and kraken should be able to attack with tentackles.

i wouldn't feel extremely sich the suggested amphibian creatures travelled on land for a reasonably short time, but aquatic town just doesn't feel right without kraken and leviathan. maybe sea town could manage with those two staying in water, but who would like to build their dwellings if there was a choice of building a multipurpose creature dwelling?

if the amphibious sea creatures had a sufficiently severe penalty on land, wouldn't conquering land castles with sea creatures become hopeless anyway (unless the land player just gave them away). i think it's not a good idea to make a town that is "balanced" only if the opponent player is extraordinarily stupid.

i think that a sea town on land would also make me sick. thus conquering a sea town with land creatures should be equally serious problem, maybe even more of a problem because there don't seem to be enough land based creatures who would feel comfortable fighting underwater.

unless someone comes out with some extraordinarily surprising solution, i would rather expect that the solution involvs keeping the sea creatures in the sea. maybe they could serve some land kingdoms as mercenaries if sea domination was of key importance. maybe something about the game system might change that would even enable sea towns where players could "build" dwellings, but "owning" a sea town would probably still be something along the lines of bribery.

as far as i understand, the mythological sea creatures were usually a nuisance for sailors (who had to take some risks anyway) and fishermen (could have been quite a serious problem if fish was the main economy of a town).

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted September 13, 2004 11:37 PM

Nice picture and concept, Svarog

Anyway, some ideas and suggestions for the town.

On the general ideas on how to place and present the towns, I overall agree with your ideas.

But when it comes to movement I feel there are better ways to solve the problem.

Some of the creatures mentioned here will feel a bit odd on land, especially if they have to move. I'm happy to see them crawling and moving in combat but not so happy imagining them moving long distances on land. (Most of them are all right, but merman, hippocampus, squids and leviathan would feel odd in the case of overland travels.)

Land dwellers have boats to travel on the seas so perhaps the water dwellers should have transports for moving on land?

They wouldn't have to be fast. The speed of a Ballista in Homm IV might be appropriate.

On the other hand I think that it would be a fair compromise to let water dwellers not need a boat at all when travelling on water (though a boat would increase their speed on water), and also let them stay between turns on water.

I think they should be permitted to stay in water between turns, because water is their native terrain and they would have good bonuses there. It's very important strategically (or at least I think it should be) that you can place troops on your native terrain between turns.

Land dwellers have access to fast boats on water and if most creatures in the Atlantis line-up have severly reduced speed on land then this is a very significant penalty (since the speed you can expand is a very important factor in the game). I think the penalty of slow land movement can hardly be overestimated!

However, to retain balance in game the penalties for embarking and disembarking would have to be more or less removed so the water dwellers wouldn't be safe if they camp near the shore.

In order to make movement fair, I'd suggest that all creatures have a land movement and a water movement. A flyer would have the same movement on land and water, but for any other creature these two parameters can be different.

On the creature selection... Apart from the line-up Savrog suggested I can see the following choices:

- Giant snakes (The Naga is nice so Svarog already has this covered.)
- Varans and Crocodiles (These would have a similar look and walk as the Basilisk has in Heroes 3.)
- Giant Turtles or Giant Frogs. (Amphibic)

... And there is also the option to add more flyers to the line-up. Perhaps the griffins or angels have deserted the "Castle" town and joined Atlantis, or perhaps a flying wyrm/dragon. Penguins-like birds and albatrosses and many other birds would also be possible.
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igoraki
igoraki


Hired Hero
posted September 14, 2004 11:01 AM

maybe to add this kind of creatures also...

selkie                

Living off the coasts of the Orkney and Sheltland islands, these seal-people live under the water. Also called Silkie and Selchie, their normal appearance is human, however, they have seal skins with which they swim through the sea. When Selkies come ashore, they hide this seal skin. If a man finds a selkie maiden's seal-skin and can successfully hide it from her, he can force her to marry him. If however, at any point, the selkie finds her skin, she will return to the sea. They say that male selkies can take human lovers. It is also said that people born with webbed hands or feet are selkie-born.

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