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| Thread: Heroes' role in H5 | |
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Mitzah
Promising
Supreme Hero
of the Horadrim
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posted September 08, 2004 09:07 PM |
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Heroes' role in H5
How would you like the heroes to act in H5. UbiSoft said that it will be similar to the H3 style. I wouldn't mind them being in the eve of battle, but on a horse this time...
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b0rsuk
Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
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posted September 12, 2004 01:22 PM |
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1.
Heroes on battlefield work well in Master of Magic, and this is because unit count remains relatively low all the time.
As opposed to Homm, where you are supposed to believe one man on a horse (or without) really can do something to a stack of several hundreds. It's not Conan, it's not Rambo, it's godlike power - and somehow it's very common.
Perhaps more importantly - it's very hard to balance this reasonably. Warrior heroes are either too strong, or too weak. In Heroes4 you get dreadful "barbarian rushes" with single hero... and in late game warriors are next to useless.
My opinion - introduce army upkeep cost. This way you simply won't have "a man against thousands wins" battles. And balancing things will be much easier.
2.
I'm growing more and more dissapointed in the way Homm serries treat might heroes. Not only lack of ballance, but more importantly - they are dull You get flat, constant increase in creature stats - but where's the fun in it ???! And what about flexibility ? Spells can be used to handle various circumstances. Meanwhile Might hero will never, ever suprise his enemy. There are no might-based battle tricks like defensive formations, smart battle leadership and such. I even wrote a topic about it, tactical tricks using command point... and no one bothered to repply, of course.
forgot about something.
Before you write how overpowered heroes in MOM are, don't forget most of the problem are too powerful artifacts, the limits are too high. The concept itself is good.
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Daddy
Responsible
Supreme Hero
and why not.
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posted September 12, 2004 01:32 PM |
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Edited By: Daddy on 12 Sep 2004
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agree with B0rsuk.
First i did not like Heroes on Battlefield, but I changed my mind.
I like it the way it is in h4  But B0rsuk is right - the Might hereos are somewhat "boring" not special tactics, all the same, only different looks - there arent many possibiltys for a "interesting" tactical combat use.
I hope, Ubi improves on this feature
Suggestion: bring specialitys back - then a heroes 2ith "armorer spec" (tazar  ) might have more def then another, or a eagle eyed hereo might learn spells during the combat, if used by friend of foe (maybe without needing the magic for it?) I think, this would strengthen the individuality of Heroes in HoMM4.
reg
Daddy
edit:
would u miund posting a link to this topic opf urs? I'm interested 
/edit
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andychina
Tavern Dweller
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posted September 13, 2004 09:03 AM |
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Yes its hard to balance Heros and units. Still I think that Heroes fighting on battlefields like HoMM4 is a good idea.
Pick War3 as example, there're both units and heroes in battlefield. Heroes may be too tough but units're still important.
Barbarian rush is the problem of race/ hero balancing by the way, I think.
yep, agree with daddy, heroes in HoMM4 are too boring.
War3 has done great job in this part.
(mention War3 all the time....)
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Daddy
Responsible
Supreme Hero
and why not.
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posted September 13, 2004 12:11 PM |
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Quote:
yep, agree with daddy, heroes in HoMM4 are too boring.
War3 has done great job in this part.
(mention War3 all the time....)
thx
Yeah, I only chose heroes for their pictures, in HoMM3 we had those abilitys that gave the herpe-choice a bit more strategy. Ur right, WC3 did a good job with their heroes, they have their own unique specials and that gives them more individuality.
I also didnt like to have my awesome-styler-heroe Neela () looking like Rissa on Battlefield. I think she should look like a genie, as she is one! that would do a much thing imo, if u could still identify ur heroe on battlefield, not only by looking at his/her pic...
reg
Daddy
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gerdash
Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
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posted September 13, 2004 03:45 PM |
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B0rsuk:Quote:
I even wrote a topic about it, tactical tricks using command point... and no one bothered to repply, of course.
lol, btw do you remember where the topic might be found right now?
my own not very well thought out ideas on heroes in the battlefield are:
1. the a little better thought out idea tbat hero could be part of the stack. more precisely, the last unit in a stack.
2. battle starts with heroes out of battle, when hero joins battle, he cannot command troops anymore (troops attack whatever is closest).
3. a different combat system where you give orders where to move and what to attack to all stacks in the beginning and later you can command only one stack every round (per hero in the army) or else it continues to carry out last order or if this cannot be done, attacks what is nearest. all stacks would move simultaneously in the battlefield (and movements would be somewhat shorter). this would make 2. work a bit more reasonably, as the commands you can give depend on the heroes out of battle. if hero joins battle, he cannot command anything anymore. the problems with simultaneous combat movement would probably a topic of another thread and would in general not be very much related to homm style combat.
4. the homm rules seem to be somewhat based on medieval etiquette (surrendering, fleeing without chaseing, etc), and that etiquette in it's strict form did not favour attacking the leader of an army who stands on a nearby hill and watches the machos fight it out in the field. and imho that's the situation in homm with the exception of homm4.
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andychina
Tavern Dweller
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posted September 13, 2004 06:41 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
I also didnt like to have my awesome-styler-heroe Neela () looking like Rissa on Battlefield. I think she should look like a genie, as she is one! that would do a much thing imo, if u could still identify ur heroe on battlefield, not only by looking at his/her pic...
reg
Daddy
Yeah, bodies and faces just don't match~
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andychina
Tavern Dweller
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posted September 13, 2004 06:56 PM |
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Quote:
B0rsuk:Quote:
2. battle starts with heroes out of battle, when hero joins battle, he cannot command troops anymore (troops attack whatever is closest).
quote]
This battle system's used in a Japanese game. Its about China, called The Three Kingdoms something like that.
In the game, when 2 troops meet on a battlefield. they can 1 on 1 or just units vs units.
This system's quite interesting. It'd be a nice idea to use it in HoMM4.
But for me, I like Heroes fighting with troops
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armageddonic...
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 19, 2004 07:12 PM |
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Here's a simple reason for why Heroes shall be able to fight, with or withouth army: If no, we could not have such maps as the second one in the Lysander Campaign, where we use only heroes, and those maps are some of the most enjoyable. Also the thing that we then can't have hero against hero endings, like when Lysander meat Worton (Worton had some bandits, but they were easy)
Also, look at the name of the searies:
HEROES of might and magic
If they just stand outside the fight, only participating through magic, I would rather call it Cowards of might and magic. You have to risk youre life to become a hero at war.
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greek_god_su...
Famous Hero
Bringer Of Light
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posted September 19, 2004 10:35 PM |
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Quote:
Also, look at the name of the searies:
HEROES of might and magic
If they just stand outside the fight, only participating through magic, I would rather call it Cowards of might and magic. You have to risk youre life to become a hero at war.
Now this is completely true! For me itīs the same if they fight in battle or no, but what kind of hero just sits back there in his/her horse casting spells and shouting orders..
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After all, marriage and murder are not too different - one ends your life and the other is a crime
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Daddy
Responsible
Supreme Hero
and why not.
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posted September 19, 2004 10:40 PM |
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greek and armageddon are completely right here.
But afaik, ubi will put the heroes back on their horses 
reg
Daddy
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B0rsuk
Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
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posted September 20, 2004 12:27 PM |
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H4 non-combat heroes (scouting, stealth, nobility, and such) is a good idea, it worked well, and I think it should stay/further develop.
Unless army upkeep costs are introduced, I oppose heroes themselves fighting. Not only it's not even remotely believable single man (much less woman, let's drop that equal rights stuff for a while and admit men _are_ stronger and have better endurance) believable....
but a hassle to balance. Barbarian rushes anyone ? Then, much later, how useful barbarians are ? Any hero can use binding arrows effectively.
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gerdash
Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
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posted September 20, 2004 12:43 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Also, look at the name of the searies:
HEROES of might and magic
If they just stand outside the fight, only participating through magic, I would rather call it Cowards of might and magic. You have to risk youre life to become a hero at war.
Now this is completely true! For me itīs the same if they fight in battle or no, but what kind of hero just sits back there in his/her horse casting spells and shouting orders..
i think this is completely wrong. it is dishonorable for a noble to kill someone who is lower rank than himself. and commander is the highest rank noble in the army. commander fighting commander is ok, all else is uncivilized.
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greek_god_su...
Famous Hero
Bringer Of Light
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posted September 21, 2004 11:01 PM |
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Then maybe there should be own battlefield for heroes, separated from the battlefield where creatures fight.
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After all, marriage and murder are not too different - one ends your life and the other is a crime
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gerdash
Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
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posted September 22, 2004 11:12 AM |
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well, i was probably exagerating a little, and it's somewhat a matter of taste, who knows these rules nowadays anyway. nowadays we have bush-rangers and no such etiquette.
i think it would be nice if homm educated the players in this field a little bit, i would also like to know more about it.
heroes only fighting each other might be reasonable, maybe something like: one hero challenges another to fight, if the other hero refuses, his army gets a morale penalty. but what happens if the hero is killed? if we want no more and no less than one hero per army like it was before homm4, i think there could be problems if the army survives the battle and the hero is dead.
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igoraki
Hired Hero
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posted September 22, 2004 11:34 AM |
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all this "heroes fighting each other on special heroes only battlefield" remind me of old pirates game(i used to play it on commodore 64).does not sound like something i would like to see in heroes V.
heroes IV give us heroes on battlefield and i think its a good direction,a way to go...yes,there are various problems with that approach and it need work to make it better,but going back into heroes III is not acceptable for me,even more involved than in H III doesnt sound too good for me...
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Mitzah
Promising
Supreme Hero
of the Horadrim
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posted September 27, 2004 09:47 PM |
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