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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Necropolis vs Castle
Thread: Necropolis vs Castle This thread is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT»
Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted July 09, 2015 11:56 AM

MeKick said:

I'm not entirely too sure what you mean about having to wait 2 months.

Also, his argument states that Castle utterly decimates Necropolis. Tower would have no part in his statements.

I meant that you should give him two months lead.
As for the tower, it's just my opinion, not his.

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swinm
swinm


Hired Hero
posted July 09, 2015 12:48 PM

Salamandre said:
If you have fun training vs AI, try mod Conquistador at 1000% AI boost. I guarantee AI will make you pull your hair.


Mods don't work for me I have homm3 complete

_____________________________________________________

I'm not troll, I just have other opinion

In a multiplayer XL 1v1 you would win because
you have probably played 100 times more multiplayer than me
you would have 99999 skeletons

nothing else, Necropolis isn't better than fight vs wandering units, only these skeletons...

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Kicferk
Kicferk


Known Hero
posted July 09, 2015 02:41 PM

Well, to start we should recognize the fact that if we compare towns we need to compare them as they are in hands of good players.

So by saying that MeKick would beat you cause he is more experienced and cause he would use necro well, you admit that
1) Necro IS better than Castle
2) You are not a good player

As for you being a troll, you show every sign of it. You come here with wrong information, use poor reasoning, bad logic and claim your silly opinions to be facts. After digging up a topic from 12 years ago and posting in it.

So you look like a good old fashioned troll, or like an extremely arrogant comp-killng newbie.

You then proceed to ignore almost all reasonable arguments that you get.

I feel that in that light assuming you are troll is justified, and you saying you are not a troll doesn't change it.

And this post of yours had the same lack of quality as previous ones. You can have different opinion, but remember, you presented it as FACTS. So don't get surprised by backlash.

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MeKick
MeKick


Hired Hero
posted July 10, 2015 09:59 AM
Edited by MeKick at 20:13, 10 Jul 2015.

swinm said:

In a multiplayer XL 1v1 you would win because
you have probably played 100 times more multiplayer than me
you would have 99999 skeletons


swinm said:
Castle > Necropolis

Because

Halberdier > Skeleton

(sic)

Castle rapes Necropolis
And these are facts, not my opinion.


Assuming that you're trying to make a serious argument -- which is a very strong assumption -- let me point out that here you contradict yourself. At the beginning, you stated that Halberdiers are better than Skeletons and even went as far as saying that Castle dominates Necropolis.

Yet now you are claiming that I (who, mind you, doesn't regularly play multiplayer) would win an XL map since I would have 99999 skeletons. Hey, wait a moment, didn't you say yourself that Halberdiers are better than Skeletons?

Also, doesn't Castle "dominate" Necropolis? Here you are claiming yourself that you would lose in a Castle vs. Necro game! #Logic?

Knowing now that you've made two posts that somehow are both false and oppose each other, tell me this: which one is "fact" and which one isn't? :^)

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swinm
swinm


Hired Hero
posted July 11, 2015 08:10 PM

I'm still not a troll
By saying I'm a troll I won't be a troll because u think that.

'So by saying that MeKick would beat you cause he is more experienced and cause he would use necro well, you admit that
1) Necro IS better than Castle'

Succes = (Player's skill / opp's skill) * (his town / opp town) * map settings (circumstances) * luck (in my calculation)

this is not easy to diagnose which is better.

I wanted to compare the two TOWNS, not the towns with the other circumstances together (see above)

So mainly the units, buildings, and costs. Buildings and costs can be seen and are compared in homm3 wiki.

I think
Stables + Brotherhood of the Sword + Lighthouse + Shipyard > Cover of Darkness +Necromancy Amplifier + Shipyard

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The_Polyglot
The_Polyglot


Promising
Supreme Hero
Rejuvenated Princess
posted July 11, 2015 08:31 PM

Seriously dude, just stop spouting bull, thanks
____________

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted July 11, 2015 08:36 PM

Developing necro is not so convenient, those vampires cost a lot of resources and you need fast creatures in order to start farming skels. Then necro needs good player and a lot of management, having 4 lowest speed on main hero daily is freezing you. And if map is smaller than large + no zones between, magic arrowing necro to death is fun.

In fact, necro started to scare people once closed templates were created. Before, wasn't such biggy.

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Kicferk
Kicferk


Known Hero
posted July 11, 2015 09:20 PM
Edited by Kicferk at 21:26, 11 Jul 2015.

swinm said:
Succes = (Player's skill / opp's skill) * (his town / opp town) * map settings (circumstances) * luck (in my calculation)


So you need to somehow quantify skill, town potency, circumstances and luck. Good luck with any of that. And then you need to somehow quantify success. Let Z be normal variable with mean 0, variance 1. Let Y = |Z|. Then take success to be P(Y<= right hand side). Given that,

If castle is "dominating" necro than I bet it should be like 3 times better in that quantification. Luck and map settings on 1v1 matches are not so important, because people want a fair game and so choose more or less balanced templates, start conditions, etc. I would say factor 1.5 is enough for both if you are very lucky and opponent is not.

So if you say you would lose that means that MeKick has to be way more than 2 times better than you for it to make any sense.

Which makes me wonder. If you recognize that you are pretty unexperienced, why don't you try to learn instead of displaying stubborness, ignorance, and lack of notion of what logic is?

swinm said:
I wanted to compare the two TOWNS, not the towns with the other circumstances together (see above)

So mainly the units, buildings, and costs. Buildings and costs can be seen and are compared in homm3 wiki.

So you wanted to compare towns without having to get an actual experience from in-game perspective? Well done. You did fabulous. And that explains why you were so wrong. But please stop. Or state this sort of thing clearly. Something like ["I don't really have a lot experience but based on costs and units description and buildings" + your analysis + results] would be way better than [your results]

swinm said:
I think
Stables + Brotherhood of the Sword + Lighthouse + Shipyard > Cover of Darkness +Necromancy Amplifier + Shipyard

As with many other things you think this is pretty close to icorrect. I can imagine a map where I would go for lighthouse and actually use brotherhood of sword. But in practice they are pretty useless in multiplayer. And with stables vs necromancy amplifier I would take necromancy amplifier. It's around 100 skeletons difference by week 2, maybe even more. It beats extra movement, espeially cosidering that stables are common on adventure map, and necromancy amplifiers only exist in town.

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MeKick
MeKick


Hired Hero
posted July 12, 2015 04:38 AM

swinm said:
I'm still not a troll
By saying I'm a troll I won't be a troll because u think that.



Feels good knowing I won an argument over the internet today. :^)

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swinm
swinm


Hired Hero
posted July 12, 2015 09:08 PM
Edited by swinm at 21:09, 12 Jul 2015.

Succes = (Player's skill / opp's skill) * (his town / opp town) * map settings (circumstances) * luck

According to homm3 wiki, town values are between ~ 6-10. However, skill is more important, so we will need bigger number. (*10)

According to:
http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com/heroes3/buildingscastle0.shtml
and necro. In necro site, they wrote 'worst foe: Castle)

Let skill be counted with the multiplayer win/loose rates * 10

Map settings are balanced, player is unlucky. 2nd player is better and with necro.

Success = (10 * (0.8 / 2.1)) * (7.0 / 8.6) * 1 * 0.8

Hard to count, but let: (very very rough estimate, didn't check it really)
<10 = probably will be pwnt
>10 = probably will win

You will probably laugh on this, but I think, this is not very far from reality. (the formula)

If you love maths, you can count with ur calculator, how many times should MeKick be better than me to pwn my Castle with Necropo$hit

Quote:
As with many other things you think this is pretty close to icorrect.  ...................... common on adventure map, and necromancy amplifiers only exist in town.


And if you had only 1 Necropo$hit on the map? (ex. 1v1, all v all everyone with other castles)
Stables is good. However, u can't disagree I think Treasury > NecroAmplifier, and x Treasuries > x NecroAmplifiers

infinite skeletons or everything bought? Hard to decide.

I know, this is a Necro vs Castle thread, but NecroAmplifier is not clear winner in non-dwelling buildings.

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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted July 12, 2015 09:23 PM

You can't hit&run anyway, so excess gold isn't worth much.
____________
Living time backwards

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Kicferk
Kicferk


Known Hero
posted July 12, 2015 10:50 PM

Necromancy amplifier is clearly not an all time winner.

But it is in large majority of cases way better than all other special buildings if you know how to use it effectively.

For one, treasury costs 5k gold. And gives you 10% of money you have once a week. So to get its worth you in 2 weeks you need to have like 25k of gold at the end of the week. That does not happen early on. But necromancy amplifier costs 1k gold, and gives you skeletons for this price in one-two days. And then more. Clear winner in most cases. It's unlikely that you will need to buy all units anyway, even if you play huge single player map with treasury on.


I also feel you didn't get my point about stables. Stables appear onthe map outside of castle towns. But necromancy amplifiers don't. So you can get stable bonuses without castle town. But you can't get extra necromancy that amplifier gives without necro town. So castle is at a disadvantage.

As for your source, wiki, its ratings are clearly wrong. Necromancer is a better hero than death knight? Riiiight, nice one.


Also, using the wiki cuts your point. Even though necropolis is clearly underrated there, it is still better than castle. And I thought you wanted to argue that necropolis is weaker than castle, way waaaay weaker than castle, that in fact castle rapes and dominates necro.

So have you changed your mind? Is necro better than castle? It's pretty clear for me, your source says that, you imply that, the only missing part is you saying yes, and maybe sorry for earlier.


Also, yes, I laughed at your formula quite hard, because even if you somehow manage to quantify castles correctly, and then manage to quantify skill, luck and map correctly, it is terribly ineffective. How does score 11 compare to score 21? Is it twice as good or 11 times as good? What is % chance of winning based on that number? Why use the formula with lacking requirements if you can't even get meaningful result?

Also, one more thing to laugh at. You arbitrarily assign a constant 10 to skill, with no explanation whatsoever why is it 10, why we should not assign a constant to luck and so on. And then (and that is the real fun) you don't notice that since it's all multiplication this constant can be put anywhere with the same result. And the result is that you need to shift your 'even' point from 1 to 10. Nothing more nothing less.

So apparently you had as much touch with math as with heroes 3. Nice and ironic parallel, made writing this comment way more fun.

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swinm
swinm


Hired Hero
posted July 13, 2015 12:51 PM

Stables is good, yes, there are many stables in the map, but visiting them may cost 4-5-6 tiles or more, on rough terrain, and it does not come back in 1 or 2 days. Stables is not the best, but stables is good.

Actually you said 1 necroAmp > 1 Treasury. What about 4 necroAmp vs 4 Treasuries? Opponent can buy all good 6-7 level units from other castles and slaughter skeletons. Doesn't cost much to buy 1-2 army-bringer heroes.
(I guess you don't really play long maps, where treasury is better than almost everything. Awesome, when you you can buy everything in a town, what is going to be attacked in a turn and has no units inside)

Wiki's rating is very $hit. 7.0 Castle??? Somewhere in this forum, there is a thread where players sort towns.
First 3 are mainly: Castle/Conflux/Necropo$hit

Necropo$hit is not underrated in wiki. 8.6. Maybe they didn't rate the 2 very very useless units from this town.... Castle has no useless units. You can leave Monks home to defend yourself, if you want. However, XXX Zombies won't stop anything when defending.

A little about the formula. It is not to be really counting with, >your< formula should be in your mind and you should use it.

I am better than him * His castle is better * Terrain&Map is better for him * I have a lucky game/day (very good starting army or something)

We will probably not get a good result, this is not about it.

About my maths, maths was always my 2nd favourite after History, and I'm studying 'advanced' (don't have better word) maths-It in school. I won a few maths competitions too - mainly when I was 8-14.

You started to attack my formula. Then let's substitue '*' with '+'. 10 will be too big number, let it be 5, and starting castle is more important than map and luck.

5*(I'm better) + 3*(His castle is better) + 2*(Map circumstances) + Luck <>= ____

Do not count. Just think.

You did not write about 2 things. I'd rather have money and buy Behemoths and Titans against your skeletons

Quote:

x Treasuries > x NecroAmplifiers
infinite skeletons or everything bought? Hard to decide.

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Kicferk
Kicferk


Known Hero
posted July 13, 2015 03:06 PM
Edited by Kicferk at 15:07, 13 Jul 2015.

Starting from formula.

You probably put all correct stuff in there, but the problem is not in determining what are factors influencing game, it's how they interact with each other. Because a given town on a given template may be way stronger than same town on different template. Even if all things on both sides are distributed similarly. Or one player of given 'skill coefficient' can be way better with one town than with any other. So this formula would have to be pretty complicated function taking into account a lot of things.

What's more, you seem to assign importance of parts of formula arbitrarily, and you also don't seem to care much about what the representation gives you. Like, from result I want to be able to tell what is probability of me winning in such conditions. I gave you an interpretation of that with random variable several posts above. If you didn't get it it's likely because being good at school math is not equivalent to using it to describe the world.


Now, as for wiki ranking, why did you bring it up in the first place?


And as for me not adressing your dilemma.
x Treasuries > x NecroAmplifiers
infinite skeletons or everything bought? Hard to decide.

I adressed it. What I argued is, there is no dilemma. If you play competetively you will finish the game before treasuries can pay off. Week 6 is eough for almost any game I have seen. Every necromancy amplifier will provide you with hundreds of skeletons in this time. While treasuries will barely pay themselves back, maybe give you 10k extra gold. Not impressive imo.

As for what is better, having all units bought or way more skeletons. Assuming both you and your opponent have comparable strogest hero, you want to have as strong army on that hero as possible for final battle. So you want big stacks of units. That means, angels from cons, wyverns from hives, and whatever creatures from your towns you can get. Necropolis has a huge stack of skeletons and possibly a decent stack of dragons. So apart from its own units it only needs godl for any unupgraded dragons/hydras on the map. This amount of gold is easy to get without treasuries. And now it has 2 basic powerstacs comon to any town(angels+wyverns) and 2 additional powerstaks, way bigger than normal growth, skeletons and ghost dragons. Clear winner.


Also, it's very mature of you to call necropolis names, did you leave primary school already?

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Orc
Orc


Adventuring Hero
posted July 13, 2015 08:58 PM

This thread is getting too personal IMO.

On the bright side, the first page was worth reading

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MeKick
MeKick


Hired Hero
posted July 13, 2015 09:13 PM
Edited by MeKick at 21:14, 13 Jul 2015.

swinm said:
Somewhere in this forum, there is a thread where players sort towns.
First 3 are mainly: Castle/Conflux/Necropo$hit


Still, you continue to contradict yourself. On one hand, you acknowledge that the top factions are Castle, Conflux, and Necro. Yet on the other hand, you insist that Castle is better than Necropolis by a long shot.

swinm said:
Necropo$hit is not underrated in wiki. 8.6. Maybe they didn't rate the 2 very very useless units from this town.... Castle has no useless units.


Tell you what: you buy out all of your not-so-useless units from Castle and I'll buy out all of my "non-useless" units from Necropolis -- Skeletons, Vampire Lords, Liches, and Dread Knights.

Those will be all I'll need to beat you in straight 1 on 1 combat. :^)

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TheFamiliarImp
TheFamiliarImp

Tavern Dweller
posted July 14, 2015 12:01 AM

MeKick said:
Tell you what: you buy out all of your not-so-useless units from Castle and I'll buy out all of my "non-useless" units from Necropolis -- Skeletons, Vampire Lords, Liches, and Dread Knights.

Those will be all I'll need to beat you in straight 1 on 1 combat. :^)


Oh come on dude, now you're overdoing it.
I would agree that Necro is better than Castle, a little bit...

But to say you'd need only 4 units to beat all 7 Castle units? Hah!

Castle could not only win with 7, it could win with 6 of its units, zealot being the one excluded.

Let's say that since I start first due to angels, I only cast spells that counter yours (you cast mass haste, I cast mass slow, you cast mass blind, i cast mass dispel/cure etc) to leave the spells out of the equation and focus on units themselves:

Split halberdiers into 2, protect marksmen. Attack lich with archangel to prevent him from deathclouding the marksmen-halberdiers group

Take care of vamps first with Crusaders, Champs and Griffins, and marksmen from afar.

Once vamps are taken care of, proceed to kill liches and skeletons one by one, first liches (Archangel will probably have been focused by now because he was the first one there, and to prevent him from resurrecting, and thus is dead).

Now they only have skeletons and deathknights. Move away and retreat back to your part of the field with remaining units. Skeletons, being slow, will waste a turn on movement also. This way you bring the deathknights and skeletons in your marksmen shooting range, and they are protected by still fresh halberdiers who were defending until now.

Umm, that's how I imagine it would go. Another way is, is to be defensive and wait for the undead to come to you, but split your units carefully so that you don't suffer due to death cloud. This would endanger marksmen, but would probably save some other units.

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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted July 14, 2015 12:21 AM

TheFamiliarImp said:
I only cast spells that counter yours (you cast mass haste, I cast mass slow, you cast mass blind, i cast mass dispel/cure etc) to leave the spells out of the equation and focus on units themselves:


The game doesn't work like that. Spell casting is a major part of the game that simply can't be ignored. It's exactly why combinations such as Red Orb + AoD (+shackles) is so incredible powerful.

Beside I can't see how exactly you can pull out only countering anyway, ghost dragons out speeds angels.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted July 14, 2015 01:15 AM

TheFamiliarImp said:
you cast mass blind, i cast mass dispel/cure


Actually the necro secret weapon, the mass blind, can't be countered. Once is done, only computer reset can save you.

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Kicferk
Kicferk


Known Hero
posted July 14, 2015 07:39 AM
Edited by Kicferk at 07:51, 14 Jul 2015.

Haha, mass blind, good one
But that is why you take artillery. To counter mass blind!

Now MeKick does not say that he will beat castle with just town growth of these units. He likely will use necromancy to get skletons very very numerous and he will win some angels and wyverns of griffin conservatories and dragn fly hives. So he will have 2 slots taken, by better stacks than walking dead/wights. So he won't need to buy walking dead/wights.

Besides, about spellcasting. You only have 1 unit faster than ghost dragons. So after I wait, on turn of my ghost dragons, I blind your archangels. And then you can't couter it the same turn, only next turn. But that means I'm one spell ahead, and can use, say, damaging spells or resurrection or whatever, and you can counter either my spell or the blind from previous turn.

Also, your battle strategy is terrible, going forward with your best stack(archangels) to save insignificant one(marksmen) is a very bad move. Cause then your opponent will gang up on Archangels and he will make sure he is out of reach of your 'champions, griffis, crusaders'. In fact, it will probably be enough for skeletons to get one hit in to kill all or almost all archangels.

So I don't see how you get to kill vampires in it. Archangels will last for less than one round and you think that you will manage to get your units to vampires in that time. Remember, you only wanted to use spells to counter mine.

And then you say that if you kill all except skeletons then you likely won. Why? I can haste them to gie them speed 9 for one move. I can use AoE spell on your silly group around marksmen. I can raise my old army. And so on, possibilities are endless.

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