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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Necropolis vs Castle
Thread: Necropolis vs Castle This thread is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT»
TheFamiliarImp
TheFamiliarImp

Tavern Dweller
posted July 14, 2015 09:05 AM

Actually Kicferk, he LITERALLY did say just that, that he will beat all Castle's units, with 4 Necro units, quoting him:

"Tell you what: you buy out all of your not-so-useless units from Castle and I'll buy out all of my "non-useless" units from Necropolis -- Skeletons, Vampire Lords, Liches, and Dread Knights.

Those will be all I'll need to beat you in straight 1 on 1 combat. :^) "

So you suddenly introducing angels and wyverns and what not is certainly not intended by MeKick.

I would prefer not to focus the discussion on spells, since 1) I am an amateur, 2) I am interested in units, not spells. So unless Necro by the nature of being Necro have some major advantage in magic, I don't see it as an important factor.

Something fishy about your statement that if I start first, you are somehow 1 spell ahead of me, and not the other way around, but hey, I am a newb so I have no idea how the wait function works

Kicferk that is the most certain strategy for winning off the top of my head. Some others would save me more units, but if I wanted to win a single battle, I would go with that. Why? Cause I can kill whatever you have with my protected Marksmen, and your only hope, the Lich, is dead.

I do not see how you would kill all archangels with one Skeleton hit. If you play with the skeleton specialty hero, you may come close to the archangel in terms of a/d, but you'll have less skeletons. If you play a necro specialty hero, you'll be attacking archangels with def of 30 with skeletons who have attack of what, 2,3,4?

Or maybe you assume that, somehow, I will have like only 2 archangels, while you will have 1000 of skeletons?

And I thought you were playing a death knight(Galthran/Isra), so how are damage spells/resurrections of any use to you? Or are you going with Vidomina? In which case, you will have even weaker units and I would obviously use a different strategy.

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MeKick
MeKick


Hired Hero
posted July 14, 2015 09:52 AM
Edited by MeKick at 10:12, 14 Jul 2015.

With reasonable merit, I can see that my previous post has caused a significant amount of ambiguity.

TheFamiliarImp said:
Actually Kicferk, he LITERALLY did say just that, that he will beat all Castle's units, with 4 Necro units, quoting him:

"Tell you what: you buy out all of your not-so-useless units from Castle and I'll buy out all of my "non-useless" units from Necropolis -- Skeletons, Vampire Lords, Liches, and Dread Knights.

Those will be all I'll need to beat you in straight 1 on 1 combat. :^) "

So you suddenly introducing angels and wyverns and what not is certainly not intended by MeKick.


On the contrary, Kicferk's statement would be exactly what I would intend to do. Allow me to clarify my horrific wording.

First off, when I said "straight 1 on 1 combat" I didn't mean that I would take just those units into the final battle. I was referring more to my belief that I would not need to rely on Zombies, Wraiths, or Bone/Ghost Dragons from my starting town in a 1-on-1 match in order to win.

It is true that if I relied strictly on town growth of these units, I would likely lose a battle with just 4 types of units against all of Castle put together. However, Necromancy is (and, also, Vampire Lords) both an incredibly powerful AND versatile tool that gives you an enormous number of options when you play most maps. So why would I not use it as such?

For example, clearing out Dragon Fly Hives, Griffin Conservatories, and Dragon Utopias are made incredibly easy via Necromancy and would allow me to build an army to easily compensate for the lack of Zombies, Wraiths, and Bone/Ghost Dragons. Or, perhaps, I might be tempted to make a powerstack of Skeletons to take out my opponent before they amass the resources to even make Angels or Archangels.

Trust me: there are plenty of options that can be had with just Skeletons, Vampire Lords, Liches, and Dread Knights.

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MeKick
MeKick


Hired Hero
posted July 14, 2015 09:55 AM

TheFamiliarImp said:
I cast mass slow, you cast mass blind ...


Wait, what?

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TheFamiliarImp
TheFamiliarImp

Tavern Dweller
posted July 14, 2015 10:47 AM

"It is true that if I relied strictly on town growth of these units, I would likely lose a battle with just 4 types of units against all of Castle put together."

All I wanted to hear.

As I said, I admit necropolis is a little stronger than castle, there is a reason it's banned in multiplayer after all.

But to say that only 4 necro units can go against the entire of castle of equal growth... that is too much.

But yeah, skeletons (because of numbers and Galthran)/death knight/vampire are the best units in their respective tiers, so just using them and maybe Liches, you might be able to beat Castle before they hire their strongest units, because Castle is damn expensive...

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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted July 14, 2015 11:14 AM
Edited by OhforfSake at 12:04, 14 Jul 2015.

TheFamiliarImp said:
So you suddenly introducing angels and wyverns and what not is certainly not intended by MeKick.

Conservatives and Hives are a huge part of playing this game.

Quote:
I would prefer not to focus the discussion on spells, since [...] I am interested in units, not spells. So unless Necro by the nature of being Necro have some major advantage in magic, I don't see it as an important factor.

Then it's not HoMM, and if you've slow units, spells is what makes the battle doable. When you fight neutrals, it's much easier to take down 1000 walking deads than 100 harpies, even though 1000 it'll be a boring battle.  

Since you're interested in units, I can tell you that 1) unit for unit, castle units are superior, except for crusaders, zealots and champions. Vampire Lords is pretty much a top level 5 unit when fighting neutrals, Power Liches are maybe the strongest level 5 unit and when it comes to level 6 units, Dread Knights have the best stats. However this doesn't matter if you're only looking at growth rates. When it comes to growth rates, level 7 units increase your army power so much that the final battle could more or less just be between them.. 4 Dread Knights, 6 Power Liches and 8 VL... I'm pretty sure they're nothing versus 2 Arch Angels. Fortunately the game isn't limited to this.

Quote:

Something fishy about your statement that if I start first, you are somehow 1 spell ahead of me, and not the other way around

One of the advantages of the dragon towns is that their fastest unit is immune to blind.

Quote:

I do not see how you would kill all archangels with one Skeleton hit. If you play with the skeleton specialty hero, you may come close to the archangel in terms of a/d, but you'll have less skeletons. If you play a necro specialty hero, you'll be attacking archangels with def of 30 with skeletons who have attack of what, 2,3,4?

If possible, Galthran is by far prefered. Necro specialty doesn't help much in the long run, and I really don't think it's worth having one as a main hero.

I don't remember the numbers, but let's say you've +13/13 on skeletons and otherwise the heroes are somewhat equal (though I could imagine the Arch Angels having extra attack power if the Castle player went for a Barbarian).
First thing to note is that it doesn't that much for low level units to hit the same damage levels as higher level units. Skeletons deals 1-3 damage and AA's deal 50, so it only takes 25 skeletons pr. AA for equal damage output before A/D considerations. Secondly for equal health it only takes 42 Skeletons pr. AA. However the important part is the A/D and is the reason why 1 AA can take down, say 100 skeletons in neutral fight. AA's have 30/30 and Skeletons have 18/17, assuming extra stats cancels out, so that means the AA's damage is:
#AA * 50 * (1 + .05 * 13 + .3) * .85 = 82 pr. Arch Angel, or enough to take down ~13 skeletons pr. attack pr. Arch Angel.
Meanwhile the Skeletons will deal about 1-2 damage pr. skeleton.
The amount of AA's is limited to weekly growth and amount of towns, so maybe you've done what I'd think very well and have 12 AA's. Your opponent has about 600 Skeletons, a rather low amount. The AA's have a total of 3000 hit points and deals just about 1000 damage.
The skeletons have 3600 hit points and deals about 1550 damage. In the end it should be pretty clear that even with advantageous estimates for the Castle players the AA's will be at a disadvantage. Spells favors the slower side, because it allows for more mobility. It doesn't mean the Castle side can't win, but while my calcs may not be faulty, it's pretty established that the skeleton power stack is a real threat, out powering more or less any unit on the battle field.

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MeKick
MeKick


Hired Hero
posted July 14, 2015 11:24 AM

TheFamiliarImp said:
But to say that only 4 necro units can go against the entire of castle of equal growth... that is too much.


Of course -- that was never the intended message of my post.

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revolut1oN
revolut1oN


Famous Hero
posted July 14, 2015 11:26 AM

If a Castle gets 12 AA any non brain-dead necro player will not have less than 2k skeletons.

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swinm
swinm


Hired Hero
posted July 14, 2015 01:00 PM

Yeah I've found an ally



Formula.
Yes, it is much times more complicated, I collect some:
(no water maps)
nearest towns with their area path type (swamp, etc)
who started closer to Dragon Cave
spells in starting castle and nearest castles
etc

I am the type of the (5-10%) people, who want to describe everything with some maths formula or equation, this is normal.

Wiki rating.
I thought wiki was written by pros and wiki is 'acknowledged' / 'official rescoure' so that's why I used 'datas' from wiki. Failed.

infinite skeletons or everything bought? Hard to decide.

Well, I can't finish XLU maps in 6 weeks, for me treasury is better than for you. However please do not say X NecroAmplifiers > x Treasuries in a months long game.

So you want big stacks of units.
I want best, not big. And we all know, might < magic, so the final battle will be about spell casting, I think.

I have left primary school, Necropo$hit it's just a disparaging joke

Orc
True.

Mekick
I will link here the forum where they rate if I have time.

OMG

Quote:
Tell you what: you buy out all of your not-so-useless units from Castle and I'll buy out all of my "non-useless" units from Necropolis -- Skeletons, Vampire Lords, Liches, and Dread Knights.


Castle clear winner. Count with 1 week normal units, totally rapes these 4 units...

And you started to talk about the spells, so that's the point where we sadly have to say 'might < magic'

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LizardWarrior
LizardWarrior


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Age of erwins is over
posted July 14, 2015 01:05 PM


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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted July 14, 2015 01:47 PM

swinm said:
might < magic



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TheFamiliarImp
TheFamiliarImp

Tavern Dweller
posted July 14, 2015 03:32 PM
Edited by TheFamiliarImp at 15:33, 14 Jul 2015.

OhForSake you're overlooking a very important thing you hinted at when you mentioned that 1 AA can beat 100 skeletons.

100 skeletons have 400hp and 100-300 dmg as opposed to an AA. But an AA won't only win due to superior attack and defense, but also because his 250 aren't distributed in small parts, so he doesn't lose dmg when he loses hp.

With skeletons, you have a stack of 100x4 of them, and their number determines the damage. As Archangel slowly lowers their numbers, their damage becomes lower and they become less of a threat.
So at the beginning their damage is 100x1-3, then archangel hits them, their damage becomes f.e. 75x1-3, while Archangel doesn't lose damage when his health is lowered.

This is why Azure dragons cost 30,000 gold but are still well worth it. They make fodder of ordinary level 7s. I remember beating around 10-13 Gold Dragons with a single Crystal dragon, while an Azure would probably do 15.

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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted July 14, 2015 03:49 PM
Edited by OhforfSake at 15:51, 14 Jul 2015.

TheFamiliarImp said:
OhForSake you're overlooking a very important thing you hinted at when you mentioned that 1 AA can beat 100 skeletons.

100 skeletons have 400hp and 100-300 dmg as opposed to an AA. But an AA won't only win due to superior attack and defense, but also because his 250 aren't distributed in small parts, so he doesn't lose dmg when he loses hp.


Unit hp to maintain damage output becomes less relevant the more units there are, until a limit where it loses all importance.

In any case, it's not 12 AA vs. 600 Skeletons lead by a high level Galthran.

Azure Dragons are not worthwhile to invest in, in my opinion. Higher level units have less strength pr. cost than lower level units. On the other hand they've more strength. pr. growth rate and are easier to maintain during a battle.
____________
Living time backwards

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Kicferk
Kicferk


Known Hero
posted July 14, 2015 04:31 PM

I am the same type of person who wants to have stuff described in mathematical language. But I want it to be done precisely and rigorously. These two are what your formula lacks, and which I think any formula of this type has to lack almost by definiton of what you want to achieve.

If you play a game which is months long I'm not entirely sure that treasuries are that good to be honest. I mean, in that time you will get a necromancy hero(whatever facton you play with) and with big chance you will get a cloak of undead king. Then I would say 3 necro amplifiers would be better than 3 treasuries. But of course, if x is large enough treasuries are better, cause effect of amplifiers is capped at I guess 90%. Or rather, more than 9 don't change a thing.

Also, sadly, magic > might in a battle vs AI, or maybe on maps sized M or less. In other cases might > magic, as have been proven by years and years of competetive games. In final battle opponent will likely have a way to counter any spell you cast, or a way to reply in kind. So it's might that decides such impass. Also, recanters cloak and red orb emphasise use of might.


About AA and skeletons, 600 skeletons is usually early week 3, with likely 0 archangels. When you can get 12 archangels, maybe late week 4 or week 5, you will likely face a legion of skeletons(maybe except Jebus Cross maps). And if they get to hit your archangels you will lose half of your stack if not more.


As far as Azure dragons, I'm not entirely sure they would always be worth their cost. If you find a dwelling and can beat the guards, chances are you already have a big army with great hero that can take anything. And azure dragons will not become a powerstack at that stage. Because even with several dungeon towns you will run out of money and mercury. So buying one for final battle sure, maybe buying another one to clear map on two fronts, but there are cheaper ways to do so

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TheFamiliarImp
TheFamiliarImp

Tavern Dweller
posted July 14, 2015 04:36 PM

30k is a weeks army, and a single Azure dragon can literally take out an entire week's army of all castles. They are definitely worth it, and I don't even think it's a matter of opinion most of the time.

I just did a check, and my 1 Azure dragon handled 11 gold dragons and still had about 200 out of 1000 HP left. I intentionally did it with my weakest hero, who only has 1 atk and 4 def so that wasn't a huge factor. The opponent split the dragons in a 2+2+2..+3 manner, and attacked with 3 of them at once. I could have made use of the terrain to only deal with 2 at a time, but chose not to.

11x 4000g + 2 crystals = 44k gold and 22 crystal.

1 Azure dragon costs 30k gold and 20 mercury.

I think the winner is clear.

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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted July 14, 2015 04:39 PM
Edited by OhforfSake at 16:40, 14 Jul 2015.

And I think you need to perform proper testing, not you vs. AI.

Beside, at what towns does one week of growth cost 30k?

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Kicferk
Kicferk


Known Hero
posted July 14, 2015 04:43 PM
Edited by Kicferk at 16:52, 14 Jul 2015.

Try your test vs 3000 peasants, 1 peasant is 10 gold in camp so 3k is equivalent price to 1 azure dragon. They will rip it to shreads.

Or while we are at testing, mighty gorgons will kill it too I bet.

Also, if the gold dragons were in one stack you would likely lose. And no human would split them like that. So, well done, test vs stupid AI proves nothing unless you intend to play with really bad players.

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TheFamiliarImp
TheFamiliarImp

Tavern Dweller
posted July 14, 2015 06:34 PM

If a player had 3000 peasants, how would they ever catch me, with Azure dragons, all other things equal? The entire map would practically be my.

I just tried it:

Yes, an Azure dragon cannot beat lvl 7s in one stack of equal worth in resources.

Anyway, my point about one Azure dragon beating an entire one week army which costs about the same, still stands - tried it with castle army , they got him to about 400 hp.

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Kicferk
Kicferk


Known Hero
posted July 14, 2015 06:49 PM
Edited by Kicferk at 18:51, 14 Jul 2015.

I bet one week army from fortress town(castle built) would kill your dragon quite often.

Also, you seem to ignore my point. By the time you can actually take azure dragons dwelling(you need to beat its guard, which is like 2 relics I think, and then take the dwelling itself), you have several weeks worth of town growth creatures, along with some more from banks and maybe necromancy/demon farming. And at that point value of Azure dragons is smaller. I guess you can buy one, for 'scare' skill and first move in final battle, but buying more is not very effective. Because azure dragons will not become a powerstack in your main army. Because
1) they are several weeks behind town productions
2) they cost a lot of gold(which is manageable) and mercury(which is far less manageable).

And another thing is, Azure dragons can go toe to toe with several lvl7 units because of how many hit points they have. But damage they dish out is comparatively low. So they are not a serious threat to an army that can do several thousands points of damage per turn. 6 Archangels have 300 base damage, compared to 70-80 of 1 Azure dragon. So they are more dangerous to your army than the dragon is in hands of opponent.

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TheFamiliarImp
TheFamiliarImp

Tavern Dweller
posted July 14, 2015 07:41 PM
Edited by TheFamiliarImp at 19:42, 14 Jul 2015.

Actually, to be fair, when I went against gold dragons, my ONE Azure did 150-172 dmg per attack, I guess it is because of his enormous attack value.

Anyway, back ontopic, I have been testing Necros a little... totally understand now why they are banned in multiplayer...

My army: Galthran, 145 skeletons, 12 vamp lords (140 skeletons, vamps, the rest 1 skeleton per remaining place)

Opponent: 12 Storm elementals, 3 Dendroid Guards, 19 Wood Elves, 33 skeletons, 26 Walking Dead, 82 centaurs, 10 pegasi

I exited that battle with 2 skeletons MORE than I entered with, and the 12 vamps who would have been dead, perhaps even more than once, if not for their lifesteal, which is just... sick

So yeah, as far as I am concerned, they beat Castle.

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LizardWarrior
LizardWarrior


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Age of erwins is over
posted July 14, 2015 07:57 PM

I think it's worthwhile to recruit azures because of their speed and badass special. Btw here's my month 3 necro army (and I'm not a very good player )

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