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| Thread: Are 7th level troops important |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT» |
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Shadow_Phoenix
Known Hero
Shadow Ruler
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posted July 29, 2001 04:50 PM |
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Are 7th level troops important
in heroes 3?
I mean, yesterday I played hot seat with a guy that had a armie of 30 Gold Dragons, 20 Red Dragons, 34 hydras and 60 phoenix. I had a armie with 200+ dendroides, 60+ war unicorns, 100 Grand Elves, 400 Battle Dwarfs about 300 centaur captains and I just beat the hell out of the guy. And I almost didn't loose troops. Bessides that the heroes were amlost equal but I had some spell advantage with a better spell book. Before yesterday I wouldn't believe that I could win so easy. So are 7th levels troops that important? It is not the first time that Dendroids win great battles for me (but not against such an armie) and the same hapens to creatures like Minotaurs and Ogre Magii so are they more important then the 7th level ones?
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malkia
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted July 29, 2001 05:09 PM |
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Quote:
in heroes 3?
I mean, yesterday I played hot seat with a guy that had a armie of 30 Gold Dragons, 20 Red Dragons, 34 hydras and 60 phoenix. I had a armie with 200+ dendroides, 60+ war unicorns, 100 Grand Elves, 400 Battle Dwarfs about 300 centaur captains and I just beat the hell out of the guy. And I almost didn't loose troops. Bessides that the heroes were amlost equal but I had some spell advantage with a better spell book. Before yesterday I wouldn't believe that I could win so easy. So are 7th levels troops that important? It is not the first time that Dendroids win great battles for me (but not against such an armie) and the same hapens to creatures like Minotaurs and Ogre Magii so are they more important then the 7th level ones?
200 dendroids x65 = 13000 points!
60 phoenix x 200 = only 12000!
200 dendroinds x 350 = 70000 bucks
60 phoens x 3000 = 180000 bucks (were they 3000 bucks or more? can't tell - but they were no less than that)
and you got it - they are about 2.5 expensive!! and also they grow rate is 4 vs. 6 for dendroids (and it should be only 2 for Phoenix - but actully they are 4).
Dendroids are one of the most effective battle units (especially for defense - the other ones I like are basilisks).
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El_Diablo
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
Lord of Terror
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posted July 29, 2001 11:37 PM |
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I think 7th level creatures are quite important, many people i have played against get intimidated by such creatures (for some odd reason), not only for other players, but wandering monsters as well, I'd say that as soon as you have the right amount of money, get the level 7 creatures
**malkia, phoenix's cost 2000 gold + 1 mercury**
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*Welcome to Hell*
~~*El Diablo*~~
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Lord_Woock
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Daddy Cool with a $90 smile
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posted July 30, 2001 11:34 AM |
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Didn't play HoMM3 for a long time... But I can help you out with Heroes2! You probably don't remember, but there were only six creature levels. I always play with a necromancer. I usually get laboratory and well in the first week. By that time others keep recruting swordsmen, griffins, elves etc. So when others get their first dragons, phoenixes and giants, I already have an army of 20 bone dragons and 400 skeletons.
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Yolk and God bless.
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My buddy's doing a webcomic and would certainly appreciate it if you checked it out!
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Maximane
Adventuring Hero
Pot Burner
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posted July 30, 2001 08:13 PM |
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Are 7th level troops important?
What about 6th level, or 5th?
No matter what the number is, it has effected us in how we have played. Of course strategy plays a high role in the game, but once it comes down to fist vs. fist it makes all of the difference.
Let us say I took 40 Arch-Angels VS. 40 Red Dragons, who would win? See what I mean?
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"Understanding is a three-edged sword..."
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malkia
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted July 30, 2001 10:05 PM |
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I think 1st, 2nd, some 3rd and 6th level level are more important.
You don't care so much for one lost cavalry, but when you lose arch-angel so easy you start thinking why i've put so much money into it. 5000 vs 1400 (don't have the game here - how much was the calavalry 1200 or 1400?). No matter cavalry has x2 less life but costs about x3-x4 less - same for the other 6th levels - DREAD KNIGHTS & UNICORS and maybe wyverns (they are expensive! when upgraded)
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Nebuka
Promising
Supreme Hero
Save me Jebus!
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posted July 30, 2001 10:51 PM |
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Shadow, level 7 are really important-they wouln`d be so expensive and strong. Your example only shows how your opponent played weakly not the strenght of seventh level creatures...
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Shadow_Phoenix
Known Hero
Shadow Ruler
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posted August 01, 2001 12:22 AM |
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You have a point there nebuka, my opponent is not a great heroes 3 player, I play heroes for a lot more time then he does (I started with good old heroes 1) but even that way I think that his level 7 troops were killed to easy. I also remember a time when I lost against other player in hot seat when my 20 Arch Devils were killed by my oponent 70 dendroids (ok, it was a stiupid move but it just helps proving that all heroes 3 game centers arround 4th and 5th, because they have the best strenght/growing rate/price combination (if we don't count conflux creatures). Anybody agrees?
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Oldtimer
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Please leave a message after..
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posted August 01, 2001 02:26 AM |
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When you have 20 AA or AD your talking about enough game time to have over 100K in the bank, we're talking late game with a powerful hero.
Question: What is the best 7th with few in numbers?
The Gianthouse is only 5000 you can get 7 giants in the field before you can even buy your first angel. I know that the upgrade is expensive(but worth it) but you can rush giants into action when the other guy is hording cash to build his 7th level house. Keep in mind that you also have nagas in the giant's army. (Haste is a good spell with this strategy)
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<PLEASE DO NOT WAKE THE OLD MAN!>
"Zzzz...Zzzz...Zzzz..."
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Shae_Trielle
Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
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posted August 02, 2001 10:57 AM |
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It all depends on what map
7th levels are important because they are not the easiest things to get early on. Lets face it, everything is fairly evenly matched in the game, the only thing that truly differs is build time. If an opponent can build their 7ths at the end of week one, then that's a great advantage they now hold. Especially if I take three weeks to build 7s, or if I make a mistake, 4 weeks, then they can quite easily have the game won by that stage, regardless of how many 6s, 5ths 4ths 3rds and 2nd level creatures I have. The opponent will have probably just as many lesser levels than I will, but will have about 7-8 more level 7 creatures. I don't know about you, but I'd rather go through 500 skeletons instead of 10 arch angels.
They often do tip the balance of the game in your favour. Shadow Phoenix, I think you might have left a few things out in that battle. What kind of spells did you have that he didn't? And damn, that's an awful lot of mixed troops for you enemy to have in one army. His morale must have been dreadful, coupled with the fact that (as you said) he was a poor heroes player. Give me equal spells and good morale (+4 at least, to counter for mixed troop morale losses) and I think I would have won that battle no problem.
*smile*
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Undead_Knight
Known Hero
Hero of Chaos
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posted August 02, 2001 04:17 PM |
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7th level troops are important because after you built them,you can win many battles vs monsters without casualties and most of them are very fast so main hero with 7th level troops only can move with great speed,and 7th level troop is the strongest unit in your army during final battle (of course if you didnt build them on week 2 and attack your enemy on week 3  )
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TemoS
Tavern Dweller
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posted August 02, 2001 05:28 PM |
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Well...
Quote:
7th level troops are important because after you built them,you can win many battles vs monsters without casualties and most of them are very fast so main hero with 7th level troops only can move with great speed,and 7th level troop is the strongest unit in your army during final battle (of course if you didnt build them on week 2 and attack your enemy on week 3 )
You're right, 7th level troops are useful, but that's not top priority to get them, unlike what a great deal of player think... But even if they're useful, they're not really efficient...
Ghost Dragon cost 3kGold and 1m, have 200HP and do 25-50
For 3kGold, you can also get 8 Vampire, they have 240HP and do 40-64... I know Ghost Dragon have some advantage, but let's face it, Ghost Dragon are not so good, useful, but not the Ultimate Beast (well, for their price)...
And, well another exemple
Gold Dragon = 4000 Gold + 2C
Vs 11 Dendroid Guard for 3850 Gold
Gold Dragon = 250 HP, 40-50 Damage
Dendroid = 605 HP, 110-154 Damage
Well, these stat are somewhat at the advantage of the Dendroid, cause if the dendroit take 300 Damage, they'll attack with more less strength... And Dendroid are slow and not immune to magic. But the fact remain = Gold Dragon are'nt indestructible and 7th Level creature are not as strongt as they sometime seem to be
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And scuse me for my lack of skill in the english language, i'm french...
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thunderknight
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted August 02, 2001 06:10 PM |
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Hmm, two thunderknights. 
Shadow_Phoneix, with appropriate spells, I will win that battle for sure. Given amageddon, I'll beat the **** out of ya.
Lv 7 = expensive, maybe not as cost effective as others, maybe few in numbers............ but INITIATIVE !
I am poor in calculation. But I can beat ANY AMOUNT of dendroid with merely ONE arch-devil in an one stack vs one stack battle if spells are not allowed.
Well, I should be more modest. I can beat A HORDE of dendroid with ONE arch-devil.
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TemoS
Tavern Dweller
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posted August 02, 2001 07:38 PM |
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Edited By: TemoS on 2 Aug 2001
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Quote:
Well, I should be more modest. I can beat A HORDE of dendroid with ONE arch-devil.
Well, i'll calculate, assuming the 2 heroes are equal and the Arch-devil go first...
Arch-devil stats are = 200 HP, ATT 26, DEF 28, Dam 30-40, no retaliation
Dendroid NOT UPGRADED = 55 HP, ATT 9, DEF 12, Dan 10-14
Arch-Angel attack first, he has a bonus of (HIS ATT- DENDROID DEF)*5% Damage, well = 70% More damage, so = 35 (Between 30-40) + 70% = 60 Damage, he'll kill ONE Dendroid.
So, one Dendroid less in the battle... Dendroit need to do 200 HP to kill, with a modification of (Dendroid Att - Arch-Anchel)*5% = 95%... so, one Dendroit is only doing 30%(Cause 30% is the minimum)of 10-14 (Let's say 12)... 30% of 12 is 4 (3.6, rounded up = 4). So, with 50 Dendroid, you can kill a Demon in ONE shot. If there's 51 Dendoid, you'll attack first, kill one, and then die.
But, i want to calculate how much Dendroid you need to beat your little (and lonely) arch-devil... Cause with 51 Dendroid, you can kill the Arch-Devil in ONE shot, but with several shot, you'll need way more less
So, each Dendroid are doing 4 Damage each Turn, and Arch-Devil kill 1 Dendroid per round (2 Each 11 Round, Cause he's doing 60 Damage, and Dendroit only have 55)
I use algebra, and i got this
There's 11 Dendroid the Arch Devils is killing one
So there's 10 to hit back = Doing 40 (Arch Kill one...)
09=Doing 36 (Arch Kill one...)
08=Doing 32 (Arch Kill one...)
07=Doing 28 (Arch Kill one...)
06=Doing 24 (Arch Kill one...)
05=Doing 20 (Arch Kill one...)
04=Doing 16 (Arch Kill one...)
03=Doing 12, and your arch is dead...
So, 11 Dendroid (Not Upgrade) can kill 1 Arch-Devils
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Nebuka
Promising
Supreme Hero
Save me Jebus!
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posted August 03, 2001 12:37 AM |
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Nice calculations but that`s not the point here. One ArchDevil could kill legion of dendroids in one stack `cause of no-retaliation and almost five times the speed ( of course with no spells and high morale ). Though I think there aren`t any player patient to do this.
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targon_the_l...
Known Hero
Ranger of AvLee
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posted August 03, 2001 01:13 AM |
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quite...
...plainly all unit levels are important in a due time: it´s obvious that level 1, 2 and 3 creatures can do wonders in the early stages of the game, especially when flagging, scouting plus sneak attacks, etc. - it is also plain that as the game advances they become more useless (well, skels are the exception here, gotta love those) - take grand elves for example: i reckon they won you a great many small and medium maps, but the minute nasty spells get acquired (the likes of implosion) they get wiped out in a second (there´s the issue of low hp number; however i won´t be going into this now)
...so, it does depend on the map no matter what: how can bragging about having titans (playing tower) help you if the map is small and resource - poor and there´s dessa knocking on your door with the behemots + a bunch of thunderbirds early on?!
...this leads to another important point: it depends a lot what level 7 creature we´re talking about - sure thing, people think twice, they hesitate when attacking black dragons where they would have usually attacked instantly were only these ghost drags instead; so this is important too...
...so i guess all are important at due time as i already said...
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Utúlie'n aurë, aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë!
Auta i lomë!
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UnkaHaakon
Responsible
Famous Hero
happily tilting at windmills
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posted August 03, 2001 03:14 AM |
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Quote:
Nice calculations but that`s not the point here. One ArchDevil could kill legion of dendroids in one stack `cause of no-retaliation and almost five times the speed ( of course with no spells and high morale ). Though I think there aren`t any player patient to do this.
As long as you're careful with where you land, and use 'wait' a lot, I could see it being done, if they were the only troops involved. I just finished a game where I used 1 devil (not an arch devil) and the towers to finish off 300 crusaders and 100 champions in a castle seige. Imploded his catapult immediately. He had no spell points left after 1 lightning bolt. Then it was 'Wait' ..pop out, hit, pop into the castle at the beginning of the next turn..repeat forever.
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Some people say the glass is half full..Some people say it's half empty... I say "What're you asking me to drink?"
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted August 03, 2001 03:41 AM |
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damn...
Someone actually waited around for one devil to kill 100 champions and 300 crusaders? Insane? how many hours did that take? Anyway- the biggest point I have seen missed here about 7th levels is that with many HP's per creature, they stay alive and keep doing damage longer than anything else. Look- it's simple, the 7th level attacks and kills 10% of enemy, absorbs retaliation and you lose 1 7th level, gets attacked and kills 9% of original enemy #'s- but loses 1 more because half HP's of top unit already gone due to original retaliation- attacks again and does kill 8% of enemy again and this time loses nothing, enemy attacks and kills 1 7th, 7th retaliate and kill 7%- then 7th attack to kill another 7%- now, 41% of lower level creatures dead, and only 30% of 7th levels- now the battle is all downhill from there. Probably 7th lose 0 to 1 more so total loss is 40% compared to 100% This isn't even counting the fact of 7th's almost always have faster speed and so can wait, attack, retreat- wait, attack, retreat... etc losing even less.
Now in the battle, what do you usually attack first with? I usually lead off with my 7th level the first round, I might lose 1 or two against other 7th levels in retaliation, but then my 6th and probably 5th and 4th gangbang losing 0 and enemy 7th's almost dead, now my 7th's can retreat- attack, retreat... etc. So it depends on if you have a totally useless throwaway stack that is fast enough to reach enemy 7th or strongest unit first round, or you go with the 7th's. Sometimes the best course in the battle is to go in with your 6ths and 7th losing maybe 50% but preserving more fragile lower levels until enemy 6ths and 7th eliminated- now you still have most of your lower level units preserved fighting against equal type units, and a few 6ths and 7ths to your enemies none. So... so many things depend, but 7ths are unqestionably needed. They won't always get you victory, there have been games I won without any 7ths against opponents with more than 20 7th's but it was due eitehr to huge #'s of mid level units or very good spells. That is the only times not getting 7ths might be survivable, but you never can tell what you will get beforehand so always go for the 7ths.
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Nebuka
Promising
Supreme Hero
Save me Jebus!
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posted August 03, 2001 04:53 AM |
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Well UnkaHaakon, you certainly are a patient man to last thru that long battle. I`m just hoping you used that implosion couple of more times...
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thunderknight
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted August 03, 2001 02:45 PM |
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Woo, UnkaHaakon, you are much much more patient than I am.
I can only beat a "horde" of dendroid but not a "throng" or more before I fall asleep.
And one more thing, lv 7 proves the usefulness of the first aid tent.
BTW, TemoS, you pick the avatar coz you think Solmyr is cool ? or just "randomly" pick one. If the former is the case, maybe we can talk.
If you just pick "randomly", would you mind to "randomly pick another avatar" ?
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