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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Bush & Kerry debate
Thread: Bush & Kerry debate This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
Rindle
Rindle

Tavern Dweller
posted October 05, 2004 03:34 AM

Bush & Kerry debate

Poles show that most Americans believe that Kerry won the debate. Who do you think came out of this debate scoring the most points?
Personally, I think Kerry did an excellent job making his position clear and highlighting the incompetence of the Bush administration.
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Laelth
Laelth


Famous Hero
Laelth rhymes with stealth.
posted October 05, 2004 03:46 AM

I think these two pictures sum up the debate quite well:





-Laelth
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Trogdor
Trogdor


Legendary Hero
Words in a custom title
posted October 05, 2004 12:45 PM

Kerry will of course win, because Bush is supporting Howard over in Australia and that it will be a fascist idea brought upon the masses.
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"Through the power of the dollar you can communicate with the dead." - Artu

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Rindle
Rindle

Tavern Dweller
posted October 05, 2004 02:06 PM

Quote:
Kerry will of course win, because Bush is supporting Howard over in Australia and that it will be a fascist idea brought upon the masses.

I hope Kerry will win, but I don't quite see how Bush supporting Australia's prime minister John Howard will effect the outcome of the US elections.

Quote:
I think these two pictures sum up the debate quite well:





-Laelth

LMAO
That's pretty much how the debate was.
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terje_the_ma...
terje_the_mad_wizard


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
posted October 05, 2004 03:57 PM

Damn!
I forgot about the entire debate, but from the parts I've seen, Kerry did best....

Wouldn't be able to comment on this, but Kerry did "win" the 5 minutes I saw...
____________
"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.

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Laelth
Laelth


Famous Hero
Laelth rhymes with stealth.
posted October 06, 2004 07:00 AM

The Vice Presidential Debate



For those of you who didn't see the vice-presidential debate, Vice President Cheney, in order to accuse John Edwards of being a slacker, said that he'd "never met him before."  For real.  The President of the Senate, Cheney, claimed to have never met Edwards in his life (before the night of the debate, of course).  To what lengths will these people stoop to hold on to power?

-Laelth
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Wolfman
Wolfman


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
posted October 06, 2004 07:01 AM

Who won is relative.
Bush stayed with what he has always said and didn't change much from other speeches.
Kerry flip flopped in the same debate, within an hour.  That's rediculous.
You can't say who won, it's like describing what a banana tastes like.  Can't really be done.
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Don't assume you know anything
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Best idea would be to ask.

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privatehudson
privatehudson


Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
posted October 06, 2004 11:34 AM
Edited By: privatehudson on 6 Oct 2004

Bush was repetitive and full of soundbytes from what I saw, I'd certainly say that Kerry beat him hands down. On the other hand Cheney beat Edwards IMO, mostly by getting nastier, something he seems to do quite well...

Since we're talking about flip-flopping though, Rumsfeld's faux pas recently though will harm Bush and Cheney a great deal. One wonders which republican view was right in this case. Two years ago he described the links between al-Qaeda and Iraq as bullet-proof, now he says "To my knowledge, I have not seen any strong, hard evidence that links the two." Soon afterwards he issues a statement saying that he had been "regrettably misunderstood."

So what did Kerry flip-flop on then? As bad as flip-flopping over a cause for war?
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DoddTheSlayer
DoddTheSlayer


Promising
Famous Hero
Banned from opening threads
posted October 06, 2004 03:37 PM

EastAsia and Eurasia have always been at war.
EastAsia and Eurasia have always been allied.

Damn its all coming true now.
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Defreni
Defreni


Promising
Famous Hero
posted October 06, 2004 03:50 PM

Quote:
Who won is relative.
Bush stayed with what he has always said and didn't change much from other speeches.
Kerry flip flopped in the same debate, within an hour.  That's rediculous.
You can't say who won, it's like describing what a banana tastes like.  Can't really be done.


For real?
If you really mean Kerry flip-flopped during the debate, it would be nice if you could substantiate that claim.
I watched a debate, where Kerry talked politics and what ought to be done in several different parts of the world, while Bush stulk to sound-bites about supposed flip-flopping, which he by the way didnt substantiate, and faced with Kerrys answers to the allegations, he simply ignored what Kerry said, and kept repeating the same phrases over and over.
If that is what is needed to win a democratic election, it sure looks bleak for Democracy.

On that note, Kerry didnt talk enough of politics compared to what I expect politicians to do, but considering he was participating in a "Debate" where his opponent adamantly refused to debate, I forgive him

Regards

Defreni
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bort
bort


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
posted October 06, 2004 04:14 PM
Edited By: bort on 6 Oct 2004

I remember when I was a young boy, I spent a day playing in the park.  I was there from sun up.  When the sun rose, it colored the sky a beautiful orange.  I said to a playmate of mine that the I liked the orange color of the sky.  He agreed.

And so we played, and as the day wore on, the sun rose and the sky became a perfect crystaline blue.  "What a lovely blue sky," I commented.  "Wait a minute," replied my playmate, " you said the sky was orange, how can you change your mind like that?  I said 2 hours ago that the sky was orange, and I am sticking to that!"

A wind came up and clouds blew in, and cottony wisps highlighted the sky.  "Look at the white and blue patterns above us," I marveled.  My playmate sneered, "Now you're saying it's white as well?  I repeat, the sky is orange.  I don't know if I can be friends with one who isn't consistent."

As the clouds built up, the sky became gray.  "It looks like rain," said I, "the sky is gray."  "Nonsense, you wishy-washy flip-flopper," came the retort, "the sky is orange!  There will be no rain, in fact, the weather is improving!  Getting better by the minute!"

Not wanting to risk it, I went inside.  Alas, my poor playmate was struck by lightning.  I did, however, admire the way he stuck to his belief that the sky was orange.


"A foolish consistency is the Hobgoblin of little minds." -- Emerson
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Consis
Consis


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
posted October 06, 2004 05:09 PM
Edited By: Consis on 6 Oct 2004

Ralph Waldo Emerson(1802-1882)

http://www.transcendentalists.com/1emerson.html
(small excerpt)
Whose original profession and calling was as a Unitarian minister, left the ministry to pursue a career in writing and public speaking. Emerson became one of America's best known and best loved 19th century figures.
(small excerpt)

I also found a passage in my biographical dictionary

Us essayist and poet, a key figure in american thought and literature. Born in Boston. After graduating from Harvard University(1821), he taught school, attended Harvard Divinity School(1825-26), and was a Unitarian minister in Boston(1829-32). Rejecting the formal structure of the church, he resigned his pastorate and went to europe. There he met Thomas Carlyle, Samuel Taylor Coleridge, and William Wordsworth and became acquainted with German Romanticism. On his return to the United States he began giving lectures; many of these were published or were incorporated into his essays.

Now here's a fellow whom I believe to be quite interesting. I particularly enjoy his nature poems. Please check the link I provided for anyone who has never heard of him. Or if you are simply curious and wish to expand upon your own literary knowledge/wisdom then this individual is a fine author and poet from which to learn....in my humble opinion that is.
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bort
bort


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
posted October 06, 2004 08:09 PM

Emerson is okay, supposedly his real strength was his speaking voice.  Personally I prefer the student (Thoreau) to the teacher (Emerson) but that's just me.

Just to be clear, though, only the last line is from Emerson, the rest of the post was my own ramblings.
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sirzapdos
sirzapdos


Promising
Famous Hero
Open the pod bay doors, Hal.
posted October 06, 2004 08:20 PM

Quote:
EastAsia and Eurasia have always been at war.
EastAsia and Eurasia have always been allied.

Damn its all coming true now.


Nice. Got that doublethink going. But, if my memory serves me, wouldn't it be more like:

Oceania and Eastasia have always been at war.
Oceania and Eastasia have always been allied.

Maybe I'm nitpicking. Anyway, nice reference.
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So I try to live a complicated world...

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Laelth
Laelth


Famous Hero
Laelth rhymes with stealth.
posted October 07, 2004 01:48 AM

This picture, more or less, sums up the VP debate:  



-Laelth
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terje_the_ma...
terje_the_mad_wizard


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
posted October 07, 2004 12:10 PM

I agree, allthough I think you're being a little too harsh on mr. Burns...

After all, we're speaking of a guy who voted against the US demanding the release of Nelson Mandela during the Apartheid...
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.

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privatehudson
privatehudson


Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
posted October 07, 2004 01:10 PM

He did?
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Consis
Consis


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
posted October 07, 2004 04:06 PM

Henry David Thoreau(1817-1862)

http://www.transcendentalists.com/1thorea.html

(small excerpt)
Writer, philosopher, and naturalist Henry David Thoreau was born on July 12, 1817, in Concord, Massachusetts. Associated with the Concord-based literary movement called New England Transcendentalism, he embraced the Transcendentalist belief in the universality of creation, and the primacy of personal insight and experience. Thoreau's advocacy of simple, principled living remains compelling, while his writings on the relationship between people and the environment helped define the nature essay.

After graduating from Harvard in 1837, Thoreau held a series of odd jobs. Encouraged by Concord neighbor and friend Ralph Waldo Emerson, he started publishing essays, poems, and reviews in the transcendentalist magazine The Dial. "A Natural History of Massachusetts," (1842) revealed his talent for writing about nature.

From 1845 to 1847, Thoreau moved to a hut on the edge of Walden Pond, a small glacial lake near Concord. Guided by the maxim "Simplify, simplify," he strictly limited his expenditures, his possessions, and his contact with others. His goal: "To live deliberately, to front only the essential facts of life, and see if I could not learn what it had to teach."

(small excerpt)

How wonderfully refreshing and reassuring of humanity to regurgitate a man such as this. Thoreau strikes a particularly personal chord for me. Both he and his mentor came about in a very ideologically turbulent time. He lived through our civil war and witnessed the birth of the Mormon religion. To one side, the growth of hypocrasy incarnate, and to the other the foundation of the united states shook with terror. If there is a god, I should like to thank him for the birth of Thoreau. He was truly a guiding light in a time of troubled ideals. How fortunate we americans are to have the pleasure of recording his works for all time.
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Peacemaker
Peacemaker


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
posted October 07, 2004 07:01 PM
Edited By: Peacemaker on 7 Oct 2004

Okay, we've veered a bit off the path here.

Wolf, I'm still waiting for an answer to the question about Kerry "flip flopping" during the debate.  It sounded to me like he voiced nearly the exact same thread of thought I have all along.

Saddam was a really bad guy, sure.  He deserves a special place in hell.

Perhaps we should have gone in there and done what we did.

But we SHOULD NOT HAVE DONE IT THE WAY WE DID IT:

1) before there was time to carefully create a successful strategy (as Powell warned Bush), without realistically determining numbers of troops (as General Eric Shinseki, the Army Chief of Staff, warned the administration), and without establishing a sound exit plan (as BOTH warned Bush);

2) based on flimsy evidence that Powell himself warned the president about repeatedly (before Bush insisted on propping Powell up in front of the U.N to make a case, based more on his now-destroyed credibility, I might add);

3) without being straight with the American public;

4) without garnering genuine support from the international community.  

Mind you, on this last point, that by the time Bush went to the U.N to request a second resolution (the or-else resolution) he was already amassing troops to invade Iraq.  This made his request look like a begrudging token request for a stamp of approval of a decision he'd already made.  Also keep in mind that this was after he had already slapped several orther countries in the face and insulted the community, on many occasions, in many completely unnecessary and unjustifiable ways.  

In essence, Bush appears to know nothing about diplomacy, at a time in history when we MOST NEED international support and multilateral cooperation in the "war on terrorism."  There is no way we can singlehandly manage terrorism globally.  We absolutely require the cooperation of security and intelligence entities across the board, or else we may as well close our ports and borders and let our own economy shut down pretty much altogether.  We also cannot manage this problem by singlehandedly (or even with 90/10 "coalitions")invading every country involved with terrorist cells, since that would be Iraq times about 20.  Iraq alone could break us financially, since we are left (due to Bush's contamination of the international sentiments toward the U.S., and his "decline" of international offers for support after the war) with 90% of the costs on this one.

As for his initial support for invading Iraq, Kerry was told the same lies as the rest of us were.  The administration put the clamps on the shaky nature of the plan and its motivations.  To say that he would not have supported this whole procedure going in, knowing what we all know now,, is not to flip-flop.  It is an acknowledgement of reality upon learning the truth, of which Bush is apparently either incapable or unwilling.

What are your thoughts on this?  Are there any other examples of thie alleged flip flopping?

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Wolfman
Wolfman


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
posted October 07, 2004 07:07 PM

Consis, what does Thoreau have anything to do with the debates?

Anyway, in the VP debate Cheney won.
I thought it was a pretty powerful statement when Cheney said how often he sits in on the Senate, and he first met Edwards on the stage for the debate.  That was great.
It was also comical when Edwards tried to defend Kerry's voting record in the Senate.  "Kerry voted for the largest military appropriations bill, and intelligence appropriations bill in U.S. history." I'm sure he did, but he also voted for the Toricelli Principal under Clinton that cut the CIA's intelligence gathering capabilities in half.  Then Kerry has the nerve to attack Bush on intelligence gathering after Kerry voted for basically the sole reason there has been a lapse in intelligence gathering.  Itís ridiculous to the point of laughter.  One of the funniest things Iíve heard in this campaign.
Probably the top one from the 2004 campaign so far would have to be; ď I voted for the $87 billion, before I voted against it.Ē  What does that mean exactly?

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