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Chanchanman
Tavern Dweller
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posted August 01, 2001 08:10 PM |
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New Guy With Some Gripes
Hi everyone, I just registered a few minutes ago. I'm a long time HOMM 1, 2, and 3 player, but this is the first time I've ever joined one of these communities for a Heroes game (as you can probably tell, I'm very excited about Heroes 4 coming out).
Now that the introduction is over, I have a couple of gripes to give about Heroes 4, so hold on to your hats.
Firstly, ever since the inception of the series, I've been looking forward to having two certain town types--one with a Far Eastern theme and another with a Middle Eastern theme. As we can all see, neither of these was delivered by NWC, and I cannot fully express my disappointment that they've neglected to include these two towns in the upcoming game.
My second and only other gripe so far is one of a minor detail--wasn't Gavin Magnus the good king of Bracada in both Heroes 3 and Might & Magic 7??? It just doesn't make sense that he's turned into the bad guy in the new game now, and it appears that NWC has been remiss about remembering this fact. I suppose that it'd be too late to change too much about these rudimentary details of the game, but perhaps the name can be altered? I always thought that Gavin was pretty cool, especially when he promoted me to Grandmaster Light Magic in MM7.
Anyways, I don't know if you guys feel the same or not, but please give me a little feedback if you agree or disagree with what I'm saying. Later.
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Still
Famous Hero
Your Ultimate Slayer
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posted August 01, 2001 08:20 PM |
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Hey
Glad to have you here man. Enjoy your stay and welcome!
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Slayin' all evil for good!
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Coldfyrius
Promising
Famous Hero
Vice-God for Marketing
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posted August 12, 2001 05:33 AM |
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Yeah, I wanted a Far Eastern town too. I had a wohle system worked out, with 4 good towns, 4 evil, and 4 neutral. Can't remember it now, though.
And about Gavin? They should use a different name. The whole good-guy-becomes-evil-because-of-something-he-can't-control theme has been done way too many times.
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"All the punks are gonna scream, 'yippee!'/ 'Cuz it's the thing that only eats hippies."
-The Dead Milkmen
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niteshade
Known Hero
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posted August 12, 2001 10:58 AM |
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"The whole good-guy-becomes-evil-because-of-something-he-can't-control theme has been done way too many times. "
Perhaps you would like to give examples of all the times it has been done?
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rychenroller
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted August 12, 2001 02:23 PM |
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Lol...just about every fantasy game out there  , or at the very least, bad guy who you cant control hehe
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niteshade
Known Hero
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posted August 12, 2001 08:31 PM |
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Well certainly if it's in every fantasy game out there you should be able to come up with a few examples. And a bad guy who you can't control is somehow not the same thing.
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Coldfyrius
Promising
Famous Hero
Vice-God for Marketing
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posted August 13, 2001 01:18 AM |
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Without even going over to my bookshelf:
Raistlin in the Dragonlance books (Yeah, I've read books based on a D&D world. We all make mistakes.)
Oh, and this is even from HOMM3: King Gyphonheart
King Roland Ironfist in the original plot for Armageddon's Blade, with the Forge Town.
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"All the punks are gonna scream, 'yippee!'/ 'Cuz it's the thing that only eats hippies."
-The Dead Milkmen
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niteshade
Known Hero
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posted August 13, 2001 01:33 AM |
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"Raistlin in the Dragonlance books (Yeah, I've read books based on a D&D world. We all make mistakes.) "
Raistlin was never a good guy, and his becoming evil was completely under his control.
"Oh, and this is even from HOMM3: King Gyphonheart "
If your talking about the lich, then that wasn't gryphonheart, just a creature raised from his body. So he was never good either.
"King Roland Ironfist in the original plot for Armageddon's Blade, with the Forge Town. "
The original plot involved archibald, not roland. And archibald was certainly never good.
So now that I've disproven all of of those, do you have any real examples?
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Coldfyrius
Promising
Famous Hero
Vice-God for Marketing
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posted August 13, 2001 04:07 AM |
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Quote:
"Raistlin in the Dragonlance books (Yeah, I've read books based on a D&D world. We all make mistakes.) "
Raistlin was never a good guy, and his becoming evil was completely under his control.
Yeah, he was a red rober, but he was fighting on the side of good. And he had to turn evil to save his own life.
Quote:
"Oh, and this is even from HOMM3: King Gyphonheart "
If your talking about the lich, then that wasn't gryphonheart, just a creature raised from his body. So he was never good either.
The lich was the same guy. Remember how it says in the Long Live the King videos that the lich retained Gryph's strategic abilities? The same things come up in the later good campaigns, and Catherine addresses the lich as "father" during the final video.
Quote:
"King Roland Ironfist in the original plot for Armageddon's Blade, with the Forge Town. "
The original plot involved archibald, not roland. And archibald was certainly never good.
Archibald died at the end of the Succession Wars. Besides, the original plot mentioned Ironfist going mad, and Arcie wouldn't need that to try to take over the world.
Quote:
So now that I've disproven all of of those, do you have any real examples?
Yep. I still have all thre, and I could come up with more if I felt like researching it. I porbably have about 50,000 pages of fantasy/SF literature in my basement.
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"All the punks are gonna scream, 'yippee!'/ 'Cuz it's the thing that only eats hippies."
-The Dead Milkmen
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niteshade
Known Hero
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posted August 13, 2001 05:07 AM |
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"Yeah, he was a red rober, but he was fighting on the side of good. And he had to turn evil to save his own life. "
He was fighting on the side of good, but only because it was convenient. He did not turn evil to save his own life, but to get more power.
"The lich was the same guy. Remember how it says in the Long Live the King videos that the lich retained Gryph's strategic abilities? The same things come up in the later good campaigns, and Catherine addresses the lich as "father" during the final video. "
The lich is barely the same person. Although he has the inteligence of gryph, he has none of his personality or morals. It's more like his tortured spirit trapped in the body of an evil monster.
"Archibald died at the end of the Succession Wars. Besides, the original plot mentioned Ironfist going mad, and Arcie wouldn't need that to try to take over the world. "
Archibald did not die at the end of the succesion wars. He was merely turned to stone, and later released. He in fact later appears in several might and magic games. And these games set him up to be the head of the forge town, before that plot was changed.
"Yep. I still have all thre, and I could come up with more if I felt like researching it. I porbably have about 50,000 pages of fantasy/SF literature in my basement. "
Please do try to come up with more, because as I said before all of these examples are wrong. You might make a minor argument for the gryphonheart thing, but the other two are just completely wrong.
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Oldtimer
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Please leave a message after..
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posted August 13, 2001 07:43 AM |
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I'm going to give my 2 cents on Raistlin. He was the ultimate nuetral or red robe, he had no loyalties accept for his own dreams and desires. He used everyone who cared for him and helped them when it was in his best interest. He did not do evil for evil sake, like his sister or the dark queen. He wanted to rule all, but when he discovered what the price of success was he gave up the world and his life to save all. So he may have stared red, became black, but he ended up white. It was a story of redemtion, even at the last minute.
Redemtion is a big theme in many fantasy stories but it is hard to work into a game.
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<PLEASE DO NOT WAKE THE OLD MAN!>
"Zzzz...Zzzz...Zzzz..."
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niteshade
Known Hero
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posted August 13, 2001 09:28 AM |
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Yeah I agree with your description of Raistlin. He was really more of a evil person who became good, then a good person who became evil.
For redemption to be done well in a game, it usualy has to be done in the confines of an RPG, or adventure game where you have some real control over your characters actions. In a game like heroes where storyline is fairly insignificant compared to gameplay, it's not such a big deal.
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Sha_Men
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jack-Of-No-Trades
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posted August 13, 2001 02:09 PM |
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Alingments...
Raistlin did what he had to do. He was ultimate neutral as Oldtimer said. He didn't want to be good or evil but he had to make choice. And that choice was evil because through good he thought he would have never really get power enough. I like these kind of characters in books more than direct good or evil guys. Some fantasy don't really have these "neutral" characters and are more into dividing people into good guys and bad guys.
If I say something about alignments how they are sometimes more trickier than D&D shows them. I think my alignment would be something like neutral-good-chaos and that's really big mess. I want to help people but I have my own goals too and without chaos there is never creation.
Every act of creation is first of all an act of destruction.
-Pablo Picasso
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Catch the vigorous horse of your mind.
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Coldfyrius
Promising
Famous Hero
Vice-God for Marketing
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posted August 13, 2001 08:23 PM |
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Another one
The Griffin King in the HoMM3 scenario "Wings of War" becomes evil because his sorceress wife enchants him.
Also, the Gryphonheart thing stays intact. Your argument about his personality/morals going away doesn't mean anything, because that is what happens in these cases, more or less bvy definition.
I'll give you the Raistlin thing, since it's been a while since I've read the books (circa 4 years). You're right about the Blade thing too; I haven't really played M&M too much.
But that's still 2 examples, both from HOMM3. I say they're overusing the idea and should come up with a new one.
____________
"All the punks are gonna scream, 'yippee!'/ 'Cuz it's the thing that only eats hippies."
-The Dead Milkmen
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niteshade
Known Hero
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posted August 13, 2001 08:34 PM |
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"The Griffin King in the HoMM3 scenario "Wings of War" becomes evil because his sorceress wife enchants him. "
That was just a minor scenario with no real plotline. You must really have to be digging for ideas if your are bringing that one up. Which makes me think it's not as common of a plotline as you say.
"Also, the Gryphonheart thing stays intact. Your argument about his personality/morals going away doesn't mean anything, because that is what happens in these cases, more or less bvy definition.
"
As I said, you can make a minor argument for this one. However Gryphonheart was dead, he was not turned evil. He wasn't turned evil while living, instead he was raised by the necromancers and bound to their will. This is really a different kind of plotline. Also Gryphonheart never really appeared in any other game, and it was not clear if he was ever good to begin with. He could have been like Archibald.
"But that's still 2 examples, both from HOMM3. I say they're overusing the idea and should come up with a new one. "
Well the only valid example is Gryphonheart, the other one isn't even from the real storyline. And as I said, gryphonheart was never necesarily a good king, and I still think the undead thing is a bit different. If the idea is so overused I think you should be able to come up with examples that don't stretch things so much.
Finally, who is to say that Magnus is becoming evil against his will? Perhaps he just turned evil on his own.
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UnkaHaakon
Responsible
Famous Hero
happily tilting at windmills
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posted August 14, 2001 01:48 AM |
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Welcome aboard!
As far as the town types you mentioned, once the decision was made to go to the "Star" of 5 magics, with the Stronghold being Might, any expansion of town types will probably have to include at least 5 new towns, so maybe there's hope in that area.
As far as Gavin Magnus is concerned, something that seems to have been overlooked here:
"Heroes IV takes place in a parallel universe to what we've experienced before. " (David Mullich interview)
It's not the same person, but his analogue in this new universe. So, the name may be the same, but his character may be completely different.
As a final observation, it seems that the lines between Good and Evil are going to be a lot more blurry in Heroes 4. This should make the possible storylines a lot more interesting.
____________
Some people say the glass is half full..Some people say it's half empty... I say "What're you asking me to drink?"
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Coldfyrius
Promising
Famous Hero
Vice-God for Marketing
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posted August 14, 2001 04:13 AM |
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I give up. We could argue out these minor points for pages without coming to a solution. Truce?
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"All the punks are gonna scream, 'yippee!'/ 'Cuz it's the thing that only eats hippies."
-The Dead Milkmen
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niteshade
Known Hero
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posted August 14, 2001 06:20 AM |
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hehe, sure you got it, truce. All in all it doesn't make a big difference anyway, the storyline is done and all we can do is see how it goes. Really it doesn't even make a big difference to me, I mostly just play for the gameplay.
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Coldfyrius
Promising
Famous Hero
Vice-God for Marketing
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posted August 14, 2001 07:50 PM |
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Tunrned out our whole debate was irrelevant because that wasn't the plot they were using.
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"All the punks are gonna scream, 'yippee!'/ 'Cuz it's the thing that only eats hippies."
-The Dead Milkmen
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Preserver
Promising
Famous Hero
Elemental Druid
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posted August 14, 2001 11:28 PM |
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To Chanchanman
Were you not contented with Rampart as the Far Eastern town and Conflux as the Middle Eastern Town architectural?
Moderator's note:This topic has been closed, as it refers to an older version of the game. To discuss Heroes 3, please go to Library Of Enlightenment, to discuss Heroes 4, please go to War Room Of Axeoth.
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- The only alert the invaders had was the rustling of leaves on a day without wind -
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