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william
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
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posted December 29, 2008 01:04 PM |
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Quote:
I am not going to tell you what not to, or to post, not my style. But before you post please do something for me. Imagine that it is your post that just recieved a QP..how would you want somebody else to react..even if they disagreed with you getting that QP. Is that really too much to ask?
Freedom of speech as far as I'm concerned. If a person wants to complain about a given QP then isn't this the best place to do it? In the feedback thread? If it was me getting the QP and someone complained then so what? That's what they think about it. It's their individual opinion about the QP and they are entitled to it. Would you say the same if someone got a penalty? If someone did get a penalty and people started saying that it should be reversed and others who say it should stay and all that (and say there were people that did not like the person who got the penalty and they think it's deserved) then what do you think? do you think they should be silent about it because someone may disagree or agree with the penalty given? It's the same case here. People ARE going to agree or disagree with a penalty and that is a part of what a feedback thread is for.
That's what I think about it anyway. Sure, it might make the person feel bad but you can't have everyone agreeing with the decision of the person getting a QP, now can you? Feelings might be at stake (lol) but sometimes, people tend to forget that this is just the Internet not real life and it's not as if any of this will actually affect any important aspects of your life. People are just saying their opinions and personally, i see no problem with that. That's me though.
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~Ticking away the moments that
make up a dull day, Fritter and
waste the hours in an off-hand
way~
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted December 29, 2008 01:09 PM |
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Edited by Mytical at 13:19, 29 Dec 2008.
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Quote:
If someone did get a penalty and people started saying that it should be reversed and others who say it should stay and all that (and say there were people that did not like the person who got the penalty and they think it's deserved) then what do you think
I have no problem with people who don't see things my way. I know my way is not the only way. In fact, I have stood up and said "That person didn't deserve that." before. So my saying people shouldn't would be a bit hypocritical..don't you think?
However, there is a line between disagreeing and being rude/beligerant. Its as if some people have not learned the word Tact. You can disagree without calling the Mod a Nazi, or being outright rude to the person who got the qp..don't you think?
Edit : No to those who are reading William has not called me a Nazi, or any other Mod..we have been called that though..not pointing any fingers anywhere.
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Message received.
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted December 29, 2008 01:42 PM |
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I'll start with the CoC because I like to do that
Quote:
The Foundation: Respect.
* An attitude of consideration and appreciation.
* Courteous regard for people's feelings, opinions and actions.
If you have read the CoC which I hope you have, you would see that this part is actually in bold type. That must mean its important.
Your "freedom of speech" William, does not entitle you - or anyone else - to go against the rules that you agreed to when you registered here. Would you argue that you should also be allowed to post racist comments, and swear as you like because it's a part of your right to freedom of speech?
As a moderator, I have absolutely no problem answering for my actions - I accept it that people are going to be upset at me because they don't like things I've done. That's part of what we sign on for when we become mods. So if I give someone a QP and you don't like it - talk to me, I did it. There is no reason for you to make the member who received the Qp feel badly about getting it.
If you object to a penalty, I have no issue with that being in feedback threads - that's where it should be. In that case you're defending a member, and complaining about the moderator's actions - that's fine.
Quote:
If a person wants to complain about a given QP then isn't this the best place to do it?
This is where I find I have such a problem.. Why on earth would you want to complain about someone getting a QP? What does it do to affect you so very personally that you are inspired to complain about it?
I could see it if say for example I started giving Geny a QP for every post he made that someone might say "What the heck??" and take it up with me in feedback. But if I or any other mod gives out a QP to a member for a specific post, why do you feel the need to pass judgement on whether or not that post was worthy - and then voice an objection when you don't like it?
I cannot wrap my little mind around this. To me its like someone makes a decent thread/post and a moderator says "hey nice job" and you run by and say "no way, you suck!" What's the point in it, if not to make someone else feel bad?
Do you think your own QP's are going to become less shiny if some other member gets one? Is it a jealousy thing? I just can't understand why people feel the need to do it.
I'll leave you now, with another quote from the FAQ:
Quote:
Quality is a relative term, so there's no set definition. Moderators will give quality points upon their judgement of quality.
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted December 29, 2008 01:49 PM |
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Quote:
I could see it if say for example I started giving Geny a QP for every post he made
So could I. (sorry, couldn't resist. )
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 29, 2008 01:52 PM |
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In short complaining about qps is not freedom of speech it's freedom of annoyance. Not only does it show disrespect to the one who got it but it also exposes your negative qualities. And if you cannot respect others why would they respect you? Food for thought isn't it.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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william
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
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posted December 29, 2008 01:55 PM |
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Edited by william at 13:57, 29 Dec 2008.
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Quote:
Your "freedom of speech" William, does not entitle you - or anyone else - to go against the rules that you agreed to when you registered here. Would you argue that you should also be allowed to post racist comments, and swear as you like because it's a part of your right to freedom of speech?
I know it doesn't entitle me or anyone else to go against the rules. By freedom of speech, it was more in the lines of the QP case like in disagreeing or agreeing with a particular QP that has been given out. Is there anything wrong with that? If someone has their freedom of speech yet says something wrong then they may know that they will get a penalty and in the end, it's their choice if that does happen but they have still said what they wanted. Racist comments and swearing is not allowed and I don't think it should be but that won't stop people from still doing it and you can see that I'm right since people have been penalised and banned for doing such things.
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There is no reason for you to make the member who received the Qp feel badly about getting it.
If the person who gets the QP starts to feel bad then that is their own business. It shouldn't ever get to the stage where they should actually start to feel bad because in the end, it's only a QP. Nothing much to cry over. People speak about QP's as if they are the holy grail or something. They're nothing to feel bad over. If someone disagrees then it doesn't matter, you still have a QP in the end so what's the problem?
Quote:
This is where I find I have such a problem.. Why on earth would you want to complain about someone getting a QP? What does it do to affect you so very personally that you are inspired to complain about it?
Because, even if I'm not a moderator, does that mean I should be silent and not say my opinion about why something is given out? I suppose you could also say this about thread closing, thread deleting, post deleting and anything else of a similar nature, right? Why can't I, as a poster, express my opinion over something? It doesn't affect me personally, but if I want to express an opinion about something then is that such a big deal? It's not as if it will be the end of the world if I do and it's certainly NOT against the CoC if I do disagree with a given QP.
Quote:
Quality is a relative term, so there's no set definition. Moderators will give quality points upon their judgement of quality.
That's all fine and good, but that still doesn't mean I can't disagree with something now does it? You might not take away the QP but I and others can still have their opinions, right?
And if you're wondering, yes. I have read the CoC. Several times in fact.
Also, I see that I'm the only one who thinks this way. Whatever. I just hope I don't get a penalty for these posts because I haven't done anything against the CoC.
____________
~Ticking away the moments that
make up a dull day, Fritter and
waste the hours in an off-hand
way~
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted December 29, 2008 01:57 PM |
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Quote:
It shouldn't ever get to the stage where they should actually start to feel bad because in the end, it's only a QP. Nothing much to cry over
Then why do you cry over it?
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 29, 2008 01:58 PM |
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In which case you are missing the spirit.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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william
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
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posted December 29, 2008 01:59 PM |
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Edited by william at 14:00, 29 Dec 2008.
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@ Pandora
I don't have a cry over anything. I'm expressing my opinion. If it seems like I'm having a cry over it then I hope you realise that I'm not crying over anything. I don't really have a cry over anything that happens here or on any other forum. It's just the Internet. I don't take things that happen here too seriously (except in msn chats and all that).
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~Ticking away the moments that
make up a dull day, Fritter and
waste the hours in an off-hand
way~
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted December 29, 2008 02:10 PM |
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Another question:
Quote:
Because, even if I'm not a moderator, does that mean I should be silent and not say my opinion about why something is given out? I suppose you could also say this about thread closing, thread deleting, post deleting and anything else of a similar nature, right? Why can't I, as a poster, express my opinion over something? It doesn't affect me personally, but if I want to express an opinion about something then is that such a big deal?
You say, why can't I? My question is why must you?
I still don't get it.
btw - in the CoC, you must have read that insults are not allowed, it clarifies that an insult is a remark that undermines another person - its my opinion that posting that someone's post isn't worthy of a QP after its been given is undermining them - therefore I feel it is within my rights to penalize it if I continue to see it.
I'll say it again - if a moderator gives the QP and you do not like the QP, then you talk to the moderator. You can see who gave the QP and when right there on the post, the QP is what you have a problem with - the fact that it's there was not up to the member who posted and therefore you should not be badmouthing them in the open forum.
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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william
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
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posted December 29, 2008 02:16 PM |
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Edited by william at 14:18, 29 Dec 2008.
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Badmouthing someone in an open forum isn't good? Then tell me how badmouthing about someone to a moderator is any better? Aren't you all supposed to be going against that kinda stuff? I could talk to a moderator about it, but that would most likely be considered to be me badmouthing about them, and that's apparently against the CoC. Plus, if it ever got out that I or someone else may have badmouthed someone behind their back then how do you think they would feel? It would probably be worse than if I posted it in public, don't you think?
I'll try to be more polite though if I do disagree or if you so wish, I'll HCM to you and ask why you gave it to the person. Then you won't have to waste your time making posts like these. Me? I can afford to waste my time doing this. I've got time to waste.
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~Ticking away the moments that
make up a dull day, Fritter and
waste the hours in an off-hand
way~
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted December 29, 2008 02:22 PM |
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I guess I'll say it again, again 
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I'll say it again - if a moderator gives the QP and you do not like the QP, then you talk to the moderator. You can see who gave the QP and when right there on the post, the QP is what you have a problem with -
I did not say you should badmouth anyone to the moderator, I said -and very clearly I think- that you talk to the moderator if you do not like the QP (that's the little red star that makes you go loony tunes)
See, now I think you're just trying to be difficult...
Anyways
Quote:
I'll HCM to you and ask why you gave it to the person.
Was it really so hard to get to this point?
Quit being a Backseat Moderator, simple as that
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted December 29, 2008 02:45 PM |
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Quote:
I don't have a cry over anything. I'm expressing my opinion. If it seems like I'm having a cry over it then I hope you realise that I'm not crying over anything.
You definitely cry over it Will, I mean you posted more here than me in the OSM 
and you say I have no life...
just what do you even care if someone else got a QP? it's not like it affects your amount of QPs...
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The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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william
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
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posted December 29, 2008 02:49 PM |
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I don't cry over it. I'm expressing an opinion. Why the hell would I cry over QP's ffs?
And yeah, it's all good that they got a QP and all, but there are some QP's I have seen(and obviously disagreed with) because I don't think they were worth it. They don't affect me, but I can still say what I think. But next time, I'll just ask a moderator and tell them instead of posting here or any other feedback thread. Happy now?
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~Ticking away the moments that
make up a dull day, Fritter and
waste the hours in an off-hand
way~
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted December 29, 2008 02:55 PM |
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theDeath, I really don't see how that was neccessary or helpful. Next time you feel the need to throw in your two cents in that manner, sit on your hands until the urge passes.
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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antipaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
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posted December 29, 2008 02:56 PM |
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And so it came to pass..that the blue lady,and the smirf decided to wage war on one another,for 12 years becuase antipaladin got a qp...
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types in obscure english
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted December 29, 2008 03:03 PM |
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Quote:
theDeath, I really don't see how that was neccessary or helpful. Next time you feel the need to throw in your two cents in that manner, sit on your hands until the urge passes.
Sorry but the way this has gone I thought I could add my 2 cents.
Feel free to delete my post.
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The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted December 29, 2008 03:10 PM |
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You're perfectly welcome to talk about the subject, but its not a free for all to take shots on William either.
Something like that would be better expressed privately between you two, all the bickering has gone on long enough - you both need to learn how to either play nice, or not play together at all.
Where's the holiday goodwill feeling around here anyways?
This place is so negative again 
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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william
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
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posted December 29, 2008 03:11 PM |
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I'm sorry if I am the cause of the negativity around this place. Starting from now, I'll try to make myself a more cheerful and happier member and also improve my posting as well. Sorry once again.
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~Ticking away the moments that
make up a dull day, Fritter and
waste the hours in an off-hand
way~
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted December 29, 2008 03:59 PM |
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Edited by Lexxan at 16:04, 29 Dec 2008.
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My two cents...
I think that the right of "Freedom of Speech" should be applied on every occasion in this Forum (I'm taking this Forum is more-or-less, Democratic, no?), but that doesn't mean that you'll have to insert comments like "Bah, crappy Quality" and whine about why that person had gotten a QP for something you think is quality worthy.
As it has been said before QP's Represent Quality and are awarded when a Moderator finds a post Quality-Worthy. Finds. Not is.
You see, Quality is still a subjective term, meaning that what one person might find Quality, the other may find mediocre at most. If the mods give a QP to someone who you think doesn't deserve it, you may protest about that, think it's unfair, etc... But then you still do not know why the post had been QP-ed, nor what others see in it as QP-worthy.
Giving a motivation to Qp-worthy posts (like "Qp-awarded because of analysis and overall Temple Contribution") will help those against the QP understand the why or why-not.
Moderators are and remain, logically, human beings. They have their own values, opinions, logic and soft spots. These Values and Opinions differ from person to person (logic, yet again), creating misunderstandings and disbelief. Whoever doesn't understand the why's, should try to understand the logic of the mod, why he or she awarded the QP (if not motivation is give of course). This can prevent a lot of problems.
 And now back to the problem itself!
When William told me that he had been warned because of this yesterday, I told him to take it easily. It's not because you disagree with something, you have to start a Crusade to take away the injustice each time over and over again. It's tiring to the normal posters, especially the Qp-gainer who will be demotivated to continue (well... sometimes at least). Moreover, try to think about the Mods: Handing out Qps is one of their main functions (lack of a better word, so I used function here), and with you people criticizing their work over-and-over again, I'm not surprised Pandora get's pissed off. If I were in her position, I would be the same.
So what about solving them? Silencing the Criticizers isn't an option. Continuing to criticize isn't either. Taking away the Qps is out of the Question Nothing is wrong with the Free Speech here, it doesn't insult anyone...
You see, even Free Speech has it's limits. Constantly "saying your opinion" about something (in Common English known as "nitpicking"), can have an aggravating effect on the other posters, Moderators in Particular.
I can only say that you guys need to take a Chill Pill and CTFO. Moderators do not need someone to criticize their jobs. After all, they have been very experienced with the terms Quality and Responsibility; otherwise they wouldn't have ever become mods ofc. You should have full confidence in them, as I have (except on Fool's April, but that's another matter )
So What I'm trying to say is: QPs that (IYO) aren't deserved, aren't then end of the world. What happened, has happened. You do not need to haunt the Moderators for what you see as a mistake. This is an open Forum, not an Inquisitorial Squad. Instead of criticizing, try to overtake the Quality in these posts. Improve the Community, as we, the Foundations of HC, always intend to.
That's all I have to say on this matter, and don't forget:
Peace out
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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