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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted July 21, 2009 07:19 AM |
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Edited by Mytical at 07:38, 21 Jul 2009.
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Here is the problem at it's core, and it goes way beyond the quote wars.
Your views Elodin, are not the problem. More then a few of us here respect your views, even if we disagree with them. Nor is it the fact that you state your views. It is HOW you choose to state your views.
Often it is not what you say, but how you say it. Unfortunately that comment will illicit the "I just hold a mirror up." response (and this comment will be seen as an attack even if it is not). You sometimes seem to take personal offense when somebody questions your religion or the Moderators try to explain the problem.
You have a tendancy also to 'Bible Thump' which is unfortuantely the exact WRONG way to do it. Bible Thumping is "Lalala I don't really care what you say because this verse (quote verse) and this verse (quote verse) says this and that is all that matters". As it has been said before we KNOW you believe the bible, but that is not really discussing. It also has the reverse effect that I would think that you want. Instead of getting peoples attention and getting them to listen so you can explain (and maybe win some over) you push them away.
Quoting the bible (ad nausium) is pointless. Might as well quote Harry Potter passages. If they don't believe in the bible (or Harry Potter) to them it doesn't MATTER what the bible (or Harry Potter) says. So instead of : Bible quote, bible quote, bible quote, personal attack, personal attack, bible quote. Try something along the lines of "Well that is not what I believe, I believe that green is blue because ..." (Without bible quotes). EDIT: I Want to make it CLEAR that I do not think your views = Green IS Blue..it was JUST an example.
Now of course you will see this as a personal attack, and it is not. My sole purpose is to try to get you to see that we really don't mind WHAT you say, but HOW you say it. That not everything is a personal attack, and that there are many ways to get your point accross. If they don't want to listen, don't try to force feed them, you'll just make sure they will NEVER listen.
Everybody can take something from this post. Not just a single person. Remember that it is HOW you say something.
P.S. Quote wars also are tedious and draining also (We had some discussion with others about this in the past..I won't mention names  ). If you need to hit quote reply to know what you are replying to that is fine, but why not delete the quotes AFTER you finish replying before you hit the 'submit reply' button?
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Message received.
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted July 21, 2009 07:24 AM |
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I have an idea. How about if we just ban JJ, Elodin, Mvass and Thedeath. Simple. 95% of the problems would be solved. Frankly I am so ****ing tired of all the turmoil and chaos around here.
If they don't like it and want to argue about it, well tough ****.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted July 21, 2009 08:46 AM |
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good in parts....
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 21, 2009 09:00 AM |
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Quote:
I have an idea. How about if we just ban JJ, Elodin, Mvass and Thedeath. Simple. 95% of the problems would be solved. Frankly I am so ****ing tired of all the turmoil and chaos around here.
If they don't like it and want to argue about it, well tough ****.
Cry more.
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Eccentric Opinion
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veco
Legendary Hero
who am I?
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posted July 21, 2009 09:13 AM |
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It's funny how both of you couldn't resist to quote a whole post even if the person you're reffering to is obvious
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none of my business.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 21, 2009 09:18 AM |
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 21, 2009 10:59 AM |
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I think he was talking about *everyone's* peace.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted July 21, 2009 11:15 AM |
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And I think Binabik is just the one with enough guts to write what probably many others think aswell.
I mentioned it many times in the OSM already. Many complaints from users about the mood in the OSM and the way threads are discussed to death.
I think a "ban" is of course not the correct solution. But a silence can work wonders...
Just try to imagine there are more than 5 members on HC. Don't make every thread a personal battlefield.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted July 21, 2009 11:25 AM |
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Havn't we had this discussion a few times before? The term beating a dead horse comes to mind. When people just refuse to understand what the problem is, what more is there to do? Also, not only one person is guilty here. People can't just 'let it go' though for some crazy reason. They have to keep kickin that dead horse.
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Message received.
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antipaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
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posted July 21, 2009 11:30 AM |
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Praphes JJ you should fold back, and not wait for the other one to fold back. you know,to save your name as a reasonble poster.
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types in obscure english
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted July 21, 2009 11:50 AM |
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Hmm you NEVER got a PM asking you to change something? We never had this same discussion before? At all? Wow, I wonder who I had those long HCM discussions with...
Thing is both you and Elodin SWORE to me that you would either outright ignore each other, or just simply not have anything to do with the other. I said it then, and I'll say it now. Neither of you can just let it go...
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Message received.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted July 21, 2009 12:04 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 12:09, 21 Jul 2009.
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@ angelito
Well, I guess I've be accused of a quote war but there were a lot of statments to respond to and you quoted me a lot.
The question I asked is why atheists can claim their beliefs are true and I can't claim my beliefs are true.
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Of course you do not say it like that. You play the smart one and say it like this: "If you do things like that, you are a sinner".
I've never made that statement.
Oh, so in a discussion of morality is wrong to say "The Bible says theft is sin?"
Furthur, sin has a religious connotation and not a secular connotation. In a religion discussion it is proper to discuss what is and is not a sin.
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You are not the one who has to judge if my way is the right one or not.
I've never judged you and you've offered no evidence that I have. You claim the Bible is just an old book and that therefore my belief that it is the Word of God is false. Are you judging me? Like I said, double standard.
People like to say thier beliefs are true and then get upset when I say mine are true.
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We do NOT have to repent our sins, because we do NOT belive in your book
You are taking my words out of context. In the context of the passage I said that I am no better than no other person and I too must repent of my sin.
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Uh? Everything ok with you? I did nothing else but repeat what you said yourself in about 30 of these 188 pages: "I believe in God and in the bible, therefore I tell my children everything about it!" Where is here any provocation or judging?
By claiming I mistreat my children and trying to smear with with the label of one who mistreats his children.
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First of all, as mentioned a few times already, stop calling me "believer". I do NOT believe. Thank you!
Second....could you define "brain-wash" if you think we are all wrong when saying that?
Brainwashing is a clear term used to slur and provoke a person.
Oh, and you do believe things. Are you claiming all your thoughts are facts? I did not call you a believer. I said you are not being impartial and your beliefs are getting in the way of your judgement. Every person has beliefs.
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Wrong. I never did. I said you should stop trying to convince others from your book. You tried since 200 pages (In this and many other threads), but failed. So please stop.
Like I said you are silencing religious viewpoints. You are allowing only speech that does not contradict your views.
Oh, atheists have been claiming that there is no God the whole time too and have not convinced anyone. Actually I was not in on the early discussions because I saw the hostility displayed towards religious people.
In a discussion of religion (or atheists bringing the Bible up) I should be allowed to present what the Bible says. I have reasons for my beliefs and I should be allowed to present them.
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Source?
Did any of the atheists or agnostics ever say you should believe in something else but the bible? No. They judge the bible itself. Like you could judge a book of Einstein if you like
Source? If you read the OSM where religion is discussed you'll find plenty.
I never said anyone should believe what the Bible says. I say the Bible is true. You say the Bible is not true. I am not trying to impose my belief about the Bible on the OSM. You are, by disallowing it to be referenced in discussions.
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Would you finally stop calling everyone who is NOT a christian fanatic an atheist? thank you!
You feel free to insult me at will, eh? You are abusing your position as a moderator.
I did not call everyone who is not a Christian an atheist.
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This is not important. Religion: Believe in something / Atheism = Believe in nothing conclusion (following your logic): something = nothing. Maybe you rethink again?
What is important is you are being biased in favor or atheism and seeking to silence religous opinions.
You can't prove there is no God. Belief that there is no God is faith.
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As already mentioned many times: There are many people without any belief. Why is that so hard for you to accept?
Like I said repeatedly everyone is entitled to their beliefs. If you believe there is no God more power to you. If you don't know if God exists or not, more power to you.
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You should always replace the word "we" with "christians", then you're on a good way
So you want to enforce your religious viewpoints in the OSM.
I recall a (actually several) certain member saying parents should only be allowed to be taught religion approved by the state. You did not demand that he say that atheists should only be allowed to teach their children state approved religion.
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Thing is both you and Elodin SWORE to me that you would either outright ignore each other, or just simply not have anything to do with the other.
I don't swear and I never said that.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted July 21, 2009 12:17 PM |
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Figure of speach. You told me in an HCM that you would keep the discussions to the religious threads AND try to not respond to Jolly in any other thread in the matter of religion. Of course the problem ISN'T religion, but how you two can't seem to talk about, to, or around each other without it becoming a shouting match/quote war / insult fest.
SO, I guess it is for me to be the one who has to make it clear. Right here, right now, so no confusion in the future. Either both of you start behaving like grown ups, and talk to each other civily IF AT ALL, then penalties and silences will follow.
Even Mvass and TheDeath have improved a LOT with their quote wars. I want to make this clear. We do not care WHAT you say (as long as it is within the CoC), but HOW you say it. If you can not respond to a post in a civil manner, then do not respond at all. I can't make it any more clear. Enough is enough. We did ask, despite for some reason everybody forgetting. Now we are not asking.
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Message received.
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted July 21, 2009 12:26 PM |
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Edited by bixie at 12:27, 21 Jul 2009.
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Jesus christ, you aren't getting the message, Elodin.
Corribus, Mytical, Baklava and many other people on this forum want you to do one very important thing.
STOP QUOTING!
you nit-picking at quotes is ruining discussions, resorting to people, including yourself, correcting and recorrecting their statements. Taking things out of context and then playing the victim, it is not big, and it's not clever. if you need to validate your claims, put it in your own words, and don't resort to quoting anything unless brought up on it!
there is no bias in this forum, as far as i can see, but your projection of bias gives you validation for you to behave childishly and with wanton abandon. Stop it now. You claim to be an adult, then start acting like one, engage in reasonable and calm discussion, rather than refer everything to your magic book with all answers.
if you choose to nit-pick this post, then I have won. If you don't and go back to ordinary discussion, we both win.
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Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted July 21, 2009 12:32 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 12:44, 21 Jul 2009.
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All I want is a level playing field. I guess when someone insults me or makes provocative posts I'll just start contacting a moderator rather than asking them to stop (which doesn't work) or rather than holding up a mirror.
I will strive to minimize my quotes.
I'll count on the moderators not to insult me and to enforce the "no provocation" on "the other side" as well.
ALL parties (including the moderators) shold abide by the rules.
Edit: According to the code of conduct,
Quote:
Racism is any remark that associates negativity with a person or group of people based on their nationality, ethnicity, religion, race, place of origin, or skin color.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted July 21, 2009 12:35 PM |
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Edited by Mytical at 12:37, 21 Jul 2009.
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That is good, and please try to not take every little thing as an Insult either. Ask in an HCM what somebody is trying to say first, they may have just misquoted or meant something else entirely.
Edit : For instance sarcasm can be lost a lot in text, and people can forget that. Things can also be taken out of context (I am guilty of this sometimes ). We are only HUMAN, we make mistakes. Sometimes it is hard to be the 'bigger person'.
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Message received.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted July 21, 2009 01:10 PM |
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Not the first time this came up, we had many discussions. Yes, we tried the diplomatic approach first (which failed miserably). I sent both of you HCM's to try to get things calmed down. Tried to explain that we don't were not trying to get you not to say anything, but just change how you say it IF you had to say anything at all.
We are not trying to assign blame (have I or have I not said that no one person (or two) is to blame?) We just want to have a bit of peace on the forums. Somebody has to try to be the 'bigger person' and just LET IT GO.
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Message received.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted July 21, 2009 01:10 PM |
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@ Elodin
I am really tired of your "spinning words around until they fit best".
This will be my last post refering to you and your posts to religious topics.
If religion is not discussable here, we will just not allow this topic anymore. That easy. Call it censorship if you like, but we don't care.
This is mostly a game board. Religious hardliners should seek out sites like www.religion.com, www.bible.com or www.mykidsarenotbrainwashed.com.
But keep those things out of here....we don't please 2 or 3 people and annoy all others.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted July 21, 2009 01:21 PM |
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I second that Angelito. I prefer not to say any subject is forbidden, but if that is the only way to have peace in the forums it may be our only option. This IS a game forum, not a religious debate forum. We all come here for fun, lets try to HAVE fun ok?
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Message received.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted July 21, 2009 01:29 PM |
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Aren't people in a religion thread talking about religion? I am NOT the one who always brings up religion. Look in the abortion thread and see how many times others were introducing religion while I kept to science.
You will notice that often the first mentinon of religion is somebody slamming religion.
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