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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted August 09, 2010 12:48 PM |
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Just to ask: Is there a limit to how many intentional strawmen attacks one may use in a post, or refuted bad logic?
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted August 09, 2010 01:08 PM |
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No. Just keep the personal attacks out of the post. Some people have a problem with this simple request. It's not exactly rocket science to figure out how to phrase responses.
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Message received.
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted August 09, 2010 01:29 PM |
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How about normal strawmen, ignoring the point, or just using really really bad logic and sources?
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted August 09, 2010 07:51 PM |
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Post examples here and we can judge....
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted August 09, 2010 07:55 PM |
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Strawmen shouldn't be employed in a discussion. Strawmen only make the people who already agree wiith agree with you. Which is stupid.
Look at point three of this list
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted August 11, 2010 05:39 PM |
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Quote:
Post examples here and we can judge....
I am just saying that Elodin is bordering troll territories with his faulty logic and biased use of sources along with unneeded walls of text.
I am tempted to start counting logical errors, secondhand insults, and worse, just to gather up a viable point instead of the completely ridicules arguments that is being ended up thrown around.
Just to repeat: The problem is not that Elodin is trolling, because he is not, but he is getting dangerously close.
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OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
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posted August 11, 2010 05:41 PM |
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So what if he is getting close? That doesn't mean anything. It's like saying someone is getting close to drunk driving. They haven't done anything wrong yet. Or they might hit their kid. Until it happens, there is no crime.
And biased use of sources? Any time anybody throws up a source, it's biased.
Quote:
How about normal strawmen, ignoring the point, or just using really really bad logic and sources?
It's an online forum. What do you expect?
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The giant has awakened
You drink my blood and drown
Wrath and raving I will not stop
You'll never take me down
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1910
Known Hero
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posted August 11, 2010 05:45 PM |
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Edited by 1910 at 17:47, 11 Aug 2010.
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Getting close does mean something because if it happens then we were all given the warnings yet chose to ignore it. Is it not better to stop the person from becoming a troll or in your example from drink driving before they do it? Saves a lot of hassle in the long term of things.
As for the whole Elodin thing, you're all just as bad as each other. He replies with what others regard as bad logic and whatever and then reply in a similar way, just disagreeing with what he (Elodin) says. What's the point? It's just a continuous circle and in the end, you're only wasting your own time trying to convince one another that he/she is wrong because, with the type of people that are in the OSM and the way they discuss things, nobody is going to admit that they are wrong so it just continues until insults are eventually thrown by both parties. Sad, really.
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OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
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posted August 11, 2010 05:47 PM |
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So we punish him now, before he has actually done anything wrong, because we don't like what he posts? Good ol' sedition.
Quote:
As for the whole Elodin thing, you're all just as bad as each other. He replies with what others regard as bad logic and whatever and then reply in a similar way, just disagreeing with what he (Elodin) says. What's the point? It's just a continuous circle and in the end, you're only wasting your own time trying to convince one another that he/she is wrong because, with the type of people that are in the OSM and the way they discuss things, nobody is going to admit that they are wrong so it just continues until insults are eventually thrown by both parties. Sad, really.
We often hate in others what we hate about ourselves.
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The giant has awakened
You drink my blood and drown
Wrath and raving I will not stop
You'll never take me down
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1910
Known Hero
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posted August 11, 2010 05:49 PM |
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No no, I didn't say that. But perhaps talking to the guy and maybe just letting him know he's getting close would be good, like what has been done. I don't think he needs to be punished like others do and until he does something wrong then nothing should really happen to him. By the way, I don't think he's the only one who is like that. Most people who discuss with him are no better than him.
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OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
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posted August 11, 2010 05:50 PM |
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That is a reasonable suggestion. Unfortunately, this is the internet: Reason need not apply.
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The giant has awakened
You drink my blood and drown
Wrath and raving I will not stop
You'll never take me down
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted August 11, 2010 05:51 PM |
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Well, there is a difference.
He is not responding, he ignores arguments, is incapable of presenting proper arguments, incapable of realizing his own logical faults.
The worst part is when he starts of with "* false statements *", along with ignoring all points.
As for sources? He uses the ones who are "unuseable" due bias, whereas wikipedia mostly can be passed of as "bias still present, but its not completely bad".
And well, all I am saying is that a moderated forum which has a small attempt on being serious also means that trolling is unacceptable. Being a ridiculous bad debatable who ends up using troll logic to get down points instead of arguing, should not be allowed to happen.
When we first are on the issue, the snow throwing is completely unacceptable from both sides. Elodin along with JJ, Moonlith, bixie and about everywhere who stops using serious arguments for a small moment ruins the continuation of the debate.
And I am tempted to say a quote ban might solve the problem... for about 10 minutes. For some strange reason HC seems to have a problem with quoting compared to other forums heated with debate.
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1910
Known Hero
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posted August 11, 2010 05:52 PM |
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Quote:
is incapable of presenting proper arguments, incapable of realizing his own logical faults.
Sounds like most people who discuss in the OSM, to be honest with you. With the exceptions of Angelito, Corribus, Omega and usually Binabik.
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted August 11, 2010 05:57 PM |
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Yeah, mostly true. But from 2 years of experience I would say elodin is worse(might be his over arrogant phrasing, thou).
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 11, 2010 08:44 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
is incapable of presenting proper arguments, incapable of realizing his own logical faults.
Sounds like most people who discuss in the OSM, to be honest with you. With the exceptions of Angelito, Corribus, Omega and usually Binabik.
Cut the exceptions.
What is bothering me is the staggering amount of simply UNTRUE historical statements. In Germany it's illegal to claim untrue things about fascist treatment of Jews and so on. Claiming that the Brits established concentration camps to keep the civilians from starving is for me like saying, Hitler put the Jews into the camps to protect them from the wrath of the people.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted August 11, 2010 09:42 PM |
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@Angelitto
Quote:
And of course it is coincidence this thread turned into a religious debatte again and THE TRUE CHRISTIAN is again part of this offtopic discussion.
Every post which contains bible quotes or quoran quotes or have close to nothing to do with the entire post will be deleted in the enxt days.
Keep your religion stuff (believe it or not, there are people who are NOT interested in these fairy tales ) in the religion threads and don't infect all other threads!
I did not bring religion into the topic and of course the topic is about a Muslim cleric building a mosque, so that is pretty much a religious topic.
When others post anti-Christian statements you seem to have no problem. But when the Bible verses are quoted that prove the anti-Christian statments to be false you are now upset.
The Qu'ran also has to do with the topic in question and proves certain people's statments to be wrong. Seems like evidence is disallowed in discussions but personal insults and false statements are fine as long as they are from an anti-Christian viewpoint.
Yes, indeed, you have made no secret of how you view Christianity. However, you should not allow your bias against Christianity keep you from moderating fairly. Let the anti-Christian arguments stand or fall without the assistance of a moderator's gavel.
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Revelation
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted August 11, 2010 09:47 PM |
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What about some napkins?
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted August 11, 2010 10:24 PM |
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ELODIN vs Angelito
GOGOGO!
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted August 11, 2010 11:01 PM |
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When bible verses are quoted??!!. I can quote you my cat crying when he is hungry, he has its internal logic as well. Why quoting the Bible is more valid than quoting Pushkin for example? Not speaking about greater Pushkin knowledge and talent about a quality writing than the guy who tried to write the bible and failed at his goals.
Religion is a personal value, and one should never argue about its truth or try to backup anything. It is in your mind. And when you talk about like you do, it puts out of his nerves everyone around. And you still do not get it.
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Era II mods and utilities
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted August 12, 2010 12:36 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 12:36, 12 Aug 2010.
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@Angelito (from the Mosque thread)
Quote:
So please stop your Police Commissioner behaviour which you show every now and then when you pop into a thread out of nothing and contribute nothing but attack the poster above you.
How about posting something usefull TO THE TOPIC instead of just criticizing others?
Oh come on, man. You've been doing the exactly same for the last 2 pages. Look at you dragging the entire "atheism is not a religion" thing back in there. Why not try to lead by example and, for instance, reply to Elodin's off-topic stuff in another thread, while posting something relevant in that one?
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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