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Heroes Community > Tavern of the Rising Sun > Thread: Philosophy question over a glass of beer anyone?
Thread: Philosophy question over a glass of beer anyone? This thread is 6 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT»
Leo_Lion
Leo_Lion


Honorable
Supreme Hero
The 5th Element & 6th Sense!
posted November 30, 2004 07:49 AM
Edited By: Leo_Lion on 30 Nov 2004

Gulp, gulp,gulp...Ahhhh...Burp!

Quote:
What was there before there was this EVERYTHING you speak of?

I think the best way to answer that question is to say that anything that came before EVERYTHING, is part of EVERYTHING. And anything that came before that, is still part of EVERYTHING. IT is every time, every place, everyone, every thought, every feeling, & every thing! Therefore, EVERYTHING is INFINITE...There is no end to no beginning, man! There could not have been something before EVERYTHING, because it would therefore be a part of IT.

Quote:
Léo, how did you come up with this stuff? And how is it we never talked about it the 2 of us?

I "came up with this stuff" on my own, after putting together a bunch of theories and ideas that I collected from numerous books, lectures, seminars, songs, etc. More than any other source, however, I base my entire outlook on life on the lessons I learned reading, "The Celestine Prophecy" by James Redfield and moreover, "Conversations with God" by Neil Donald Walsh.

From these books I learned about Human Interactions & about the Soul. These books also put to rest any questions, to which I didn't have answers, and have liberated me to live a life of Absolute Certainties! I was brought to realise that regardless of how smart or stupid any creature in the universe is, every one of them live their lives KNOWING that they exist (i.e. Sentient or Self-Aware on some sort of Infinite level) The problem is, that the vast majority of these same creatures, are "unconscious" of their existence. Most people are asleep at the wheel!

It's one thing to KNOW you are alive and go through the motions that existence places on each & every one of us; but it is an entirely different thing to UNDERSTAND why you are alive and why you do what it is you do. Everyone's Minds and Bodies are always working, but very few people's Souls are ever utilized in their lifetimes...even most religious folks!

I used to live normally and ask myself deep philosophical questions every once and a while, but then I went about my days not answering any of them to my satisfaction. I would sleep, eat, laugh, cry, run, jump, dance, sing, scream, etc, etc...and I would rarely give any thought to the reasons behind what I was doing.

Example: One rarely thinks about why they answer "Not bad" or "Pretty good", when asked "How are you doing today?" Well, I'll tell you that I try think about what my immediate answer will be every time, but if I ever slip up and just blurt out some nonsense, I will later reflect upon what I answered in order to determine why I did that.

Basically, most people just REACT to life (The process of knowing you are alive), but very few people THINK about their REACTIONS to life (The process of understanding your life).

Conan, why haven't I talked about this to you in the past? Well, I KNOW it's because we have never been alone and have never broached this subject. But, I UNDERSTAND that it is also because we were not meant to discuss this "specific subject" until this "specific time" in this "specific place". One of my favorite sayings will also answer that question beautifully: "There is a reason why, and although we might not UNDERSTAND it yet, that reason is good"!

A life of Absolute Certainties, right there my brothers & sisters!!!
____________
*The end to no beginning...



*Take care, Leo

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Asmodean
Asmodean


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Heroine at the weekend.
posted November 30, 2004 11:28 AM

My own theory

Sorta like Leo's *sits down, motions for a beer*

Before there was nothing there was everything.
I mean, every particle of matter already existed, and our universe of today came about as the critical mass of the last universe, due to entropy and gravity, exploded.

Think of it like an opening and closing fist.
At the big bang the fingers are flung out as far as you can get them, yep wiggle them about. They're galaxies etc. *does hand motion*

Now verrrrry slowly begin to make a fist. You see? That's entropy and gravity at work there. And slowly you've made a fist.

Now squeeze that fist tight. TIGHTER! *I need another beer*
At the point where the palm of your hand bleeds because your nails have pierced the skin.....that it when you fling your fingers back out again (because it hurts) because the universe has reached critical mass, ie - can't be squeezed any more and.....explodes again. Another Big Bang.

*finishes beer*
I'll be back later, I wanna go look at the advent calendar.
____________

To err is human, to arr is pirate.

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Shiva
Shiva


Promising
Famous Hero
posted November 30, 2004 02:03 PM

Quote:

Before there was nothing there was everything.
I mean, every particle of matter already existed, and our universe of today came about as the critical mass of the last universe, due to entropy and gravity, exploded.



Nothing is everything..saying "before" is still trying to conceive of things with the same linear dimensional thinking as always.

And Conan, I say subjective because this is not really science, and we can't stand back from it. We  are totally involved with however we percieve life, in particular such
experiences that reach to nothing or everything. Involved in a way that we dissolve into Unity, but cannot bring back a picture or a proof or often even words to validate that experience. All one can say is "something" appeared to happen.

And if you wish to stand back and observe in an objective way what is going, you will never experience it all! Jump into the void, peace will come...

____________

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pandora
pandora


Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
posted November 30, 2004 04:51 PM
Edited By: pandora on 24 Dec 2004

So then the BigBang To Oldtimer is something his wife made up as a means to win debates? But in Asmodeans case the BigBang involves his own fist? Mr Hawking would be most intrigued!

As for the serial numbers on Condoms I think that they are like little ID's , and the condoms are like prisons for those who.. well you know what they're up to

Now for me, to participate in this debate would involve coffee, so I will have to grab a pot before I come back. I am far too sleepy still for IT, EVERYTHING and Beyond Tho I do find this all fascinating.. interesting thoughts everyone!

Of course, all this Leafs hating is really distracting for me... I can handle talk of the Habs but the Sens... ewww... they are the ultimate void. yuk! Oh and Conan... keep up the Jets jokes... I dare ya

PS: Vive le Canada!
____________
"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."

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Asmodean
Asmodean


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Heroine at the weekend.
posted November 30, 2004 04:53 PM

Oi! That was not a nice thing you said! Leave Oldtimer alone!

Back to the thingy....um. The flaw in my argument is....what was there before the fist?!!!

AAARGH I can't take it no more!! Who knows the answer?
____________

To err is human, to arr is pirate.

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Leo_Lion
Leo_Lion


Honorable
Supreme Hero
The 5th Element & 6th Sense!
posted November 30, 2004 06:04 PM
Edited By: Leo_Lion on 30 Nov 2004

Ask yourselves this...

I'm getting tipsy...Maybe I had better switch to the 0.5% stuff...NAH! Refill!!!

Quote:
The flaw in my argument is....what was there before the fist?!!!

Following our discussion, some people might ask themselves this question, : "Well, if a God/Deity Created the universe, then who or what Created the God/Deity?" The answer to that is: IT Created ITSELF. Now, you might say that to Create ITSELF before IT even existed, implies that IT did exist before Creating ITSELF.

WELL THERE YOU GO!!! THAT IS THE ANSWER!!! EVERYTHING has always existed and IT always will...

Quote:
AAARGH I can't take it no more!! Who knows the answer?

Asmodean, we all KNOW the answer, but the quest of our lives is to UNDERSTAND the answer...( to the Douglas Adams Hitchhikers out there)

As Shiva said, the Mind is an imperfect tool. It is not capable of UNDERSTANDING something that only your Soul can. The Mind is not supposed to do that, neither is the Body, people must listen to their Souls in order to come to peace on this issue and many other great Debates & Questions!
____________
*The end to no beginning...



*Take care, Leo

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Conan
Conan


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted November 30, 2004 07:08 PM

Fascinating insights everyone! Cheers!
*lifts glass.

I wanted to say that since I've joined HC, I've noticed that there are some very intelligent people that visit this site. (I wonder if it's related to playing Heroes? ) That is why I started this thread, because I knew I'd get some food for thought.

Shiva, I totally agree with you on the subjective argument. Then I ask, is anything objective? Probably you will answer that IT or EVERYTHING is.

Léo, since the mind is imperfect and we think with our mind, how can you come to such certainty? For me personally, I think that we live in a reality of incertainty, but that it is important to talk about it not to take IT for granted.

One question to the group of friends: Is the reality that we perceive, is it in our minds only? or is it out of our body? and if it's out of our body (ie: objects are present as they appear in our minds), how can you ever be certain of this?

Now, I'm going to the bathroom and I'll be back with a pot of coffee for Pandora and some more Jets jokes... LOL
____________
Your life as it has been is over. From this time forward, you will service.... us. - Star Trek TNG

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Oldtimer
Oldtimer


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Please leave a message after..
posted December 01, 2004 04:17 AM
Edited By: Oldtimer on 30 Nov 2004

As we all hang our quantum strings in anticipation of Creation Day we must give a nod to the spirit of perversity.  For this little minx always comes as the festivities are in full bloom and reminds us that Creation Day is Actually the great day of Destruction.  For we all must take that moment of silence and reflect on the holy perfection of the Infinate Peace.  The time that all the strings were part of the perfect infinate strand, vibrating to the quantum music of peace.

All energy, matter, and time in perfect unison.  Wraped up in a little ball of twine.

The Great Day of Destruction, the first Day, Creation day, Begining of time.  

A ball of twine coming undone.  

The little spirit of perversity has always been represented by the image of a little kitten.

But I've always said, "It just wouldn't be a Big Bang without a little puss y."
____________
<PLEASE DO NOT WAKE THE OLD MAN!>

"Zzzz...Zzzz...Zzzz..."

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Shirastro
Shirastro


Famous Hero
Happy happy joy joy
posted December 01, 2004 04:50 AM

I could join this "debate" but first i would like us to clarify some points.
This "everithing" you are talking about....what exactly is it?
Second why do you take for granted that at certian point this "everithing" apiered. Do you have some proof that it didn't always existed? Do you have some proof that it even exist now?
Define matter, deffine time.

Is the snow white couse its white, or couse WE see it white, and would it still be white if there wouldn't be anione to see it?
Is there a sound if there isn't anione to hear it. Doas the time pass if there is nothing to feel the changes that it brings?
____________
And now to the next post.

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Conan
Conan


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted December 01, 2004 07:22 PM

Quote:
Is the snow white couse its white, or couse WE see it white, and would it still be white if there wouldn't be anione to see it?
Is there a sound if there isn't anione to hear it. Doas the time pass if there is nothing to feel the changes that it brings?


I firmly beleive that what makes the reality is our brain. Indeed, all reality is constructed in our brain and this brain has for it's only purpose to perceive the reality that surrounds us.
For example, my white can be your yellow, but we both call it the same color. We will never truely know what the other sees.

The same goes for sounds. Although noise can be qualified as distortions in the air, these distortions are, in essence, not sounds ... but distortions. Our brain makes sense of these distortions into sounds. Imagine that we could hear with our occipital lobe and see with our temporal lobe. We would actually see sounds and hear colors.

By the way, you want some beer? Plenty here for everyone.

Léo, I'd love to hear your answer to his question!

____________
Your life as it has been is over. From this time forward, you will service.... us. - Star Trek TNG

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Shirastro
Shirastro


Famous Hero
Happy happy joy joy
posted December 01, 2004 08:07 PM

I dont drink beer, but thx.
White martini with little ice and no olive for me plz.
____________
And now to the next post.

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Conan
Conan


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted December 01, 2004 08:24 PM

Will that be shaken or stirred? with a lemon zest?
Vodka or Bombay Saphyr Gin?
____________
Your life as it has been is over. From this time forward, you will service.... us. - Star Trek TNG

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Dingo
Dingo


Responsible
Legendary Hero
God of Dark SPAM
posted December 02, 2004 05:36 AM

Shaken, Not Stirred.
____________
The Above Post/Thread/Idea Is CopyRighted by, The Dingo Corp.

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Leo_Lion
Leo_Lion


Honorable
Supreme Hero
The 5th Element & 6th Sense!
posted December 02, 2004 08:37 AM bonus applied.
Edited By: Leo_Lion on 2 Dec 2004

I won't pull a Sir_Stiven here...

Oldtimer, great "anal"ogy of a cat's cosmic purpose!
And damn you Conan for goading me into this, I'm totally loaded and can't even drive home now!
My apologies to everyone if it sounds like I am preaching here, but I usually get like this when I am drunk...Refill! *Hiccup*
Quote:
This "everithing" you are talking about....what exactly is it?
Second why do you take for granted that at certian point this "everithing" apiered.
Do you have some proof that it didn't always existed? Do you have some proof that it even exist now?

EVERYTHING has and always will be an INFINTE amount of thoughts, feelings, matter, & energy in one entity/being/unit, whose sole desire is to UNDERSTAND through EXPERIENCE "what" & "who" IT is.

I do not take for granted that at a certain point EVERYTHING appeared. The amount of thoughts, feelings, matter, & energy composing EVERYHTING are INFINITE, which means that they exist in sizes so small & so large that our Minds cannot conceive of them. Same goes for the phenomenon of time, EVERYTHING exists so far back or so far ahead that there is no difference between either point. In this sense INFINTY means "there is no end to no beginning" OR "all is the same while being different".

Thoughts, feelings, matter, & energy are the only things that exist...PERIOD! If you don't believe me, think about it long and hard (Don't stay asleep at the wheel ) and if you are still unsure, put aside every one of your preconceived ideas & opinions and also everything that you have ever learned; then, ask YOURSELF if what I say is true (Introquestion). But when you listen for an answer, don't expect it from your brain because it is the instrument of fixed ideas, opinions, and information (It should almost be turned off at this point). Instead, "feel" the answer come from your Soul (Introspection). Your Soul cannot lie to you because it KNOWS every single thing about thoughts, felings, matter, & energy; but it is on a quest to UNDERSTAND these things. So, ask yourself anything and then feel the truth come from within. If you are unsure of the answer that you provided yourself, go over your state-of-mind at the time of Introspection and determine if your Mind or Body interfered in the process. If they did, try again, and if they didn't, you have yourself Ultimate Truth & Absolute Certainty.

Let me explain this a little more, for all of those with confused looks on your drunken faces. Every single Mind & Body was Created by EVERYTHING, from ITSELF in the Big Bang/Genesis/Creation Day, but with only fragments of IT's INFINITY. So, by being on the outside of EVERYTHING and by being different from IT, we can serve as a point of comparison. From here, EVERYTHING can begin IT's process of "understanding" all the things IT already "knows" about ITSELF through our EXPERIENCES. How does this happen...through our Souls! Souls are a part of EVERYTHING that contain all of the "knowledge" IT possesses about ITSELF. (i.e. INFINITE amounts)

For example: Long before our universe existed and long after it will cease to exist, EVERYTHING will "know" all there is to "know" about a blade of grass. But, IT will never "understand" what being a blade of grass is because there will always be INFINITE ways of being a blade of grass. (i.e. cut by lawn-mower, burnt by chemicals or the sun, stomped by feet, on Earth or another planet, etc.) And so, EVERYTHING will continue Creating INFINITE amounts & varieties of grass in INFINITE locations & circumstances; in search of a better "understanding" of "who" & "what" IT is.

And yes...grass has a Soul! It has a Mind & Body too, but these are obviously different from our own. The Soul, however, is one-and-the-same. Otherwise, how would EVERYTHING be able to "experience" & "understand" all that IT is?! [Substitute anything you would like for "grass", by the way, and the same rules apply!]

Quote:
Define matter, deffine time.

There are INFINITE definitions for such things, since they are INFINTE themselves! No human can truly define anything with their Mind, as it is an intentionally flawed instrument. But every human "knows" the INFINTE definitions because we all have a Soul...just feel-it-out (Introspection) for answers and then you will begin to "understand"!

Quote:
Is the snow white couse its white, or couse WE see it white, and would it still be white if there wouldn't be anione to see it?
Is there a sound if there isn't anione to hear it. Doas the time pass if there is nothing to feel the changes that it brings?

If you seek answers to these questions, Shirastro, you have only to Introspect! But be weary of trying to satisfy your Mind & Body's curiosity of trivial subjects, your Soul/EVERYTHING's main desire is to "experience" & "understand" LOVE!!!

***I warned you***
____________
*The end to no beginning...



*Take care, Leo

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Shiva
Shiva


Promising
Famous Hero
posted December 02, 2004 02:22 PM
Edited By: Shiva on 2 Dec 2004

Quote:

Shiva, I totally agree with you on the subjective argument. Then I ask, is anything objective? Probably you will answer that IT or EVERYTHING is.



Since objective means to stand away from and look at a situation with no preconcieved ideas, ask yourself this:
is that really possible? My answer is that it is possible to a degree, but not totally so. Why? Because you would have to do away with all your prior experience that went into shaping your personality that affects how you see things now.

And as a side bar, when people here say the mods are not objective in the awarding of QP's, I say, so what! What the person who is complaining is really saying is I don't agree with you and I would act from my own non-objective view point differently.

Quote:
EVERYTHING has and always will be an INFINTE amount of thoughts, feelings, matter, & energy in one entity/being/unit, whose sole desire is to UNDERSTAND through EXPERIENCE "what" & "who" IT is.


I like that. We are here to find out who we are that is here. And just to add to an "infinite amount of thoughts etc", there is something that brings all these things together. It is that upon which all these manifest
aspects of creation are written, the very fabric from which all things emanate. To say it arose from nothing is not quite true, since it always was. There was no beginning and hence, no creation, merely changes in the aspects of creation. So, we can observe birth and death,
which exemplify coming into life and living it, but we cannot easily see the very Life or Conciousness which allows these things to happen in the first place

____________

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Khayman
Khayman


Promising
Famous Hero
Underachiever
posted December 02, 2004 05:34 PM
Edited By: Khayman on 2 Dec 2004

How I so love these type of threads...

Khayman walks in, looks around, and says "Hey, wait a minute, this isn't Starbucks!  How am I supposed to get my morning Venti Caramel Machiatto with just a sprinkling of Brown Sugar?  Hmmpph..Guess I'll just have to have a beer then."

I was reading for pleasure the other day (and no, not Playboy or Penthouse) and I came across an interesting quote in the book I was reading.  The quote is from Henry David Thoreau's Walden and Civil Disobedience, but it is a slight alteration of a Confuscian saying:

"To know that we know what we know, and that we do not know what we do not know, that is true knowledge."

After reading some of the thoughts in this thread so far, that quote just popped into my head.

As for my beliefs regarding what existed before nothing existed, well, I try not to look upon the creation of the universe and our existence as a linear occurence.  I think if you look at the creation of the universe as one dimensional or 'lineal', so to speak, then you are narrowing your boundaries for creative reasoning.  For example, what about the infinite possibilities that exist with time and space, such as alternate or parallel universes.  The more I think about this, the more possibilities jump into my narrow-minded perspective, and then I begin to wonder if time is even real.

I know this sounds confusing, but I guess what I am trying to say is this.  Let me give you somewhat of an analogy...

If you draw a circle on a piece of paper, place a dot in the center, and draw one line from the center to the edge of the circle, then you have one radius.  Now, there are an infinite amount of possibilities of the number of radii that you can draw, just from that single circle drawn on a piece of paper.  However, instead of using a piece of paper and pencil, say you take a three dimensional object, such as a soccerball, then there are more possibilities of radii that can be produced.  However, the the number of radii still remains infinite, but you are just viewing things from an alternative perspective.

I apply that thinking to the universe.  Even if there was at some point in time Nothing, then how can we be sure that alternative universes did not exist, where there was already Something?  Why does there have to be a starting point?  Why can't the universe be non-lineal?  The only explanation that my limited thinking can come up with is that there is a supernatural force controlling all of this, whether it be a supreme being or other cosmic force, but to admit that would be to admit defeat in science, mathematics, and in reason, so the struggle continues (for me at least).  Then, of couse, the next logical question would be...How did that supernatural force come into existence, and the vicious cycles begins all over again.

Now you guys have motivated me to start thinking even more about this.  This is a neat topic.  You guys have some interesting thoughts.  
____________
"You must gather your party before venturing forth."

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Conan
Conan


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted December 02, 2004 08:00 PM

Quote:
Shaken, Not Stirred.


Here you go,
*hand a shaken Martini à la James Bond, still looking frothy from the shaker.

Khayman,
Nice of you to join us. Want a beer? (*lifts the pitcher)

Very very interesting what you speak of. I especially like the soccer ball idea. The thing is I'm trying to apply it to the universe; find other ways of thinking about time. If you could comment on this, I'd appreciate
I truely beleive however that it is up to each of us to find the answers to this. It is near impossible to put into words so discussing it makes it hard and at the same time interresting witch is why I created this thread.

Shiva,
I understand what you mean. Objectivity may exist; the state of reality the way it is before it is understood or even perceived by us. But for us, as soon a we perceive, we fall in subjectivity... right?
So your example of the QP thing is good. If only some others would understand that everything is subjective and at best, you simply don't agree with their subjectivity. - Nicely put.

Keep this coming guys, I love it!
____________
Your life as it has been is over. From this time forward, you will service.... us. - Star Trek TNG

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Svarog
Svarog


Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
posted December 03, 2004 04:04 AM

You guys. Trying to understand metaphysical concepts like these, and drinking beer at the same time, no wonder you’re not making any progress.
On the point, there is no way for us to know the nature of existance. There are basically three ways to even start thinking about it: empirical – we cannot know unless we experience it somehow, which is to say: screw it, we’ll never know; the rational – everything has a cause, and therefore the unbroken chain of causation leads back to the First Cause, or the Divine (but if this is true, free will wont exist, because it implies randomness in the chain of events) and the theological view – God is the first cause, and free will exists, but at the same time God knows what we’d choose, how he pulls that trick is not up to us to figure out, but up to faith to believe the Old man can do it. Surely, these are the main interpretations of each approach, which doesn’t mean there arent other interpretations.
But as an argument against the rationalist approach, I can mention the Uncertainity Principle, in quantum mechanics, which is the only scientific theory which so far has been discovered to negate causality. That is to say, our reason may not always have the right answers, even though it seems unlikely that there may not be a primary cause for the universe. So, your IT, or EVERYTHING, or WHATEVER, would be just unproven implications of the limitedness of your rational mind.
Now, gimme one o’ those beers.

____________
The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.

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Svarog
Svarog


Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
posted December 03, 2004 04:17 AM

Oh, khayman reminded me to add smth.
You know, there are a bunch of wacky scientists out there, who propose some cRaZy theories. For example, some claim that the world hasnt got 3 or 4, but 7, 12 even unlimited number of dimensions. There's an argument for this too (sort of like Khay's example). If we were 2D flat worms, and lived on a soccer ball, we wouldnt know that the "world" (the ball) has actually 3 dimensions, and to us, it would seem to be endless and unlimited, which a ball, by all standards, is not.

Also, there are some theories of parallel universums existing, and they are created each time we make a choice. According to this logic there are also unlimited number of prallel universums, and they are created as you read each letter in this line. To a normal creature, this idea would seem totally out of place, but the advocates of this theory give mathematical support for it.

Some extremes our reason can lead to, huh?
____________
The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.

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Shirastro
Shirastro


Famous Hero
Happy happy joy joy
posted December 03, 2004 04:23 AM

Leo Lion thats the best example of table philosophy i've ever read.
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