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| Thread: The Miracle |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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guitarguy
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Rockoon.
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posted January 08, 2005 02:12 AM |
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It's nothing actually, what your brother said. I think he was just kidding, like most siblings do. For you, what you experience when you see people of different colors is completely okay. So long as you don't go out of your way to offend anybody whilst keeping negative words to yourself, then nothing is wrong. This "neutral" standpoint might feel weird at first, but I'd call it a blessing when I think about racists who'd give no thought about putting others down. You can rest assured that you're quite a few steps ahead of those who think so backwardly. Just keep it cool and try to find as many allies in this world as you can. Color, in this whole picture we call life, means very little after all.
I hope this helps.
-guitarguy
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Shiva
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 08, 2005 02:36 AM |
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Edited By: Shiva on 7 Jan 2005
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Quote:
Hey, I'd like to ask you guys something, because one of my brothers once said something to me that I didn't understand...
Korejora, it seems to me you are a pretty special person.
It doesn't matter if you don't act the same or think the same as everyone else, and there is no reason to think of yourself in a negative way.
Some people are born into this world with a perception of life that doesn't match those around them. They see things that others don't, and don't see things that others do. You seem to be one of those. You don't cry when others do, but I suspect that doesn't mean you don't feel. You don't notice skin color because it doesn't mean anything to you, but that doesn't mean you are naive, it just means you are seeing things the way we all should be see things.
Be confident in your own perception. People can learn from you.
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted January 09, 2005 04:46 AM |
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There are many other religions such as disturbing Satanists by that nut Anton Szandor(forgot last name) in SanFransisco I think
I suppose you think here of Anton LaVey. I have no idea why you think his religion is more disturbing than the others. If you're so open mined as you say, you should give him a chance to tell you about his believes and then judge.
I've had the chance to read one of his pamflets (so called books) when I was younger, and I must say I quite liked the philosophy behind his beliefs. From an ethical point of view, he's much more coherent with my ideas, than any other Christian brand.
The adolescent heavy-metal elements in there aside, it's a healthy philosophy, similar to the works of Hesse and Nietzsche, with some humane dimension lacking.
Out of its religious context, and in the ethical-philosophical one, I would choose Satanism (in LaVey's version) a million times before Christianity.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Korejora
Promising
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posted January 09, 2005 10:44 AM |
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LaVey's Satanism is actually a good religion. Not disturbing at all. In fact, I think that there are more disturbing things in the Christian religion than I've found in his Satanism.
How much do you know about LaVey's philosophies, Consis?
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That's the best part. 
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guitarguy
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Rockoon.
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posted January 09, 2005 10:55 AM |
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In fact, I think that there are more disturbing things in the Christian religion than I've found in his Satanism.
Such as...?
-guitarguy
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Korejora
Promising
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posted January 09, 2005 11:02 AM |
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Such as the various reasons people are supposed to go to hell for. And the fact that there is a hell to go to.
Of course, "Christian" covers a very broad range of religious beliefs, so some things may include more or less disturbing concepts than others.
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That's the best part.
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guitarguy
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Rockoon.
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posted January 09, 2005 11:10 AM |
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For a better understanding on the subject...
I've always thought the term 'Satan' in Satanism would frighten people, whether their Christian or not. Can you sum up the whole Satanist thing in a few sentences? This is just for my knowledge (too lazy to look on Google).
-guitarguy
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Shiva
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 09, 2005 01:25 PM |
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Edited By: Shiva on 9 Jan 2005
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I did google Lavey. Read
this:http://fcos.us//aslv.html
Seems he was into his own fiction. After reading
that, I totally lost interest in anything else
he had to say. Just another self-agrandizing liar.
I did at one point in my life look into Aleister
Crowley, that noted left-hand path warlock. His
main rule was:"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole
of the law", which at first glance seems good. However,
he himself followed his own rule and thus became
a rather degenerate druggie, so he was no real
example to follow except if you are willing to go to
Hell whilst still living in this world.
I met one lady who was a follower of his. One day,
she informed me that she knew when the time was right,
the perfect victim for a human sacrifice would be sent
to her. I looked at this rather fat, not so good looking
woman who had just uttered the most stupid thing I had
ever heard in my life, and quietly walked away.
The left hand path, or Satanism, is mostly about gaining
personal power, often through the misuse of others. It
really is even more ignorant of the truth than the Catholic church.
As you might have guessed, I'm not a big fan of
organized religion, but I am a very spiritual person.
Religion and spirituality don't need to be the same, in fact they aren't. Its each individuals personal quest for
the truth that matters, not what dogma they follow.
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted January 09, 2005 03:20 PM |
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Korejora,
What do I think of his philosophies? I think he set out to prove that christianity was basically made-up of fiction. I think he fictitiously created his own religion and then sold it potential believers.
I do agree that much of christianity could have been created by imaginative people. I also believe that Lord of the Rings was entirely fictional. But even so, I still wish to be more like Boromir, Frodo, Samwise, Gandalf, and the others. It was a fellowship of great trust and friendship. These are qualities that I value whether some one writes about them in fiction or documenting a real-life event.
Mr. LaVey did not seek to better the world and further peaceful relations between warring nations. In fact his entire philosophy was so specific that one could easily deduce that it wasn't so much Satanism that he preached, rather Anti-Roman Catholicism. It seemed to me that he was merely trying to prove a point to the world. I believe his purpose was to show that the Christian God would not simply "strike you down" or instantly beset biblical capitol punishment and curses upon a person for speaking the catholic-version of blasphemy. In conjunction with his attempts to prove such, I also rather enjoy certain lyrics and themes by Ozzy Ozbourne.
You see, I believe that with every extreme fundamentalism society will witness human philosphical oppositionism. This is to say that if I went out and proclaimed to a crowd of millions that I believe the earth to be, in fact, a world of positive energy then how many people would begin to spring forth declaring the world to be filled with negative energy? It's all relative.
In the end I believe one can only find peace of mind if they look within themself before looking to others.
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Roses Are Red And So Am I
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Korejora
Promising
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posted January 10, 2005 12:07 AM |
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What do I think of his philosophies?
No, that's not what I said. I asked how much you knew about his philosophies.
I personally don't know them inside and out, but there are some valid points to them. IMHO, if everyone followed the Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth and no one did any of the Nine Satanic Sins the world would be a much better place than it is now.
It seems to me that the name "Satanism" scares a lot of people. LaVey's Satanism should by no means be judged without thorough research... although people tend to judge it without looking. In fact, here's an testimony to that right out of the Church of Satan:
Quote:
In recent years, we’ve wasted far too much time explaining that Satanism has nothing to do with kidnapping, drug abuse, child molestation, animal or child sacrifice, or any number of other acts that idiots, hysterics or opportunists would like to credit us with. Satanism is a life-loving, rational philosophy that millions of people adhere to.
The way I see it, he made the Satanism to counteract or provide an alternative to Christianity, but only because Christianity doesn't work for everyone anymore (although I doubt it ever really worked for 100% of the people). The blanket rules are just too general. Like, umm, I think somewhere it says that Christians should "honour their mother and father". Well, what if their father steals things and rapes people, and beats his children? Is that the kind of person a child should honour and respect? No, but the blanket rules were made by the priests to keep order in the world, because it worked for most people.
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That's the best part.
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guitarguy
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Rockoon.
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posted January 10, 2005 04:14 AM |
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My beliefs on the matter
Quote:
Like, umm, I think somewhere it says that Christians should "honour their mother and father". Well, what if their father steals things and rapes people, and beats his children? Is that the kind of person a child should honour and respect?
Wouldn't you think (if you'll side with Christian ideology for a sec) the father who steals things and rapes would be the one who ultimately done wrong (sinned) and would then be judged accordingly? God did *not* tell Moses and the Israelites: "Honor your father and mother, who happen to delight in being abusive and morally corrupt, and respect their actions for they are your parents, after all." If you follow along in the Bible and read about the type of personality this God has, there's an indication that He will frown upon the wrongdoings of the sinful father or mother just as much as he would despise the deeds of the murderer and rapist. With that in mind, He wouldn't expect a child to bend over backwards to meet a requirement such as honoring parents when parents themselves would not show a hint of righteousness. Perhaps to help you understand my point, I'll put it this way: To honor your parents, you as the child must not be disrespectful to them, as one who is disrespectful to others is often one who ends up sinning. This God encourages His people to try to avoid committing those sins. Here's where the child of the bad parents must step up. Hopefully, the child will be able to talk to someone outside the family about these serious insecurities towards the parents and, in doing so, receive help for it. Maybe that won't even happen if the parents get locked away in prison. I know I'm lousy at explaining these things, but I'm firm with what I personally believe. To me, parents should be honored for what good there may is in them. After that, God will justify everything else. Mind you, I do not intend this to be preaching at all; believe my beliefs if you will.
Quote:
No, but the blanket rules were made by the priests to keep order in the world, because it worked for most people.
That depends on whether we choose to believe that the Ten Commandments and such were made by mere priests. It's alright to differ in beliefs, but the above is stated like a fact, when it is an opinion. We don't have the power to claim fact in a broad topic such as this, as we have no evidence. Nothing in the accomlishments of science, history, or anything has the answer in this case. For that matter, I stated earlier that I present only my beliefs (I do not claim any facts). That's a thought I hope everyone will consider. You all are quite intelligent and I respect hearing your thoughts.
-guitarguy
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted January 10, 2005 04:56 AM |
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Satanism, Satanism... Sounds repugnant, doesn’t it? 
Well, prejudices away, I’ll tell you that I used to be a convicted and practicing Satanist. I was experimenting a bit with spiritualism and found Satanism to be the most appropriate vent for my spiritual energy. Before you start sprinkling the screen with holy water and stick crosses on my avatar, I’d advice you to read this short summary of Satanistic basic philosophy and then continue with your exorcism if you still feel like it.
The Satanic Bible (as LaVey called his book) is composed of four books (chapters) and few additions. These four books are called Book of Satan (fire), book of Lucifer (Air), Book of Belial (Earth), Book of Leviathan (Water). First one is a set of Satanic principles of ethics. To illustrate one: “I break away from all conventions that do not lead to my earthly success and happiness.”
Second book is written like a philosophical novel discussing Satanistic philosophy.
Third and Fourth books are concerned with practicing Satanism, basics of Satanic Magic and keys and invocations for rituals.
Naturally, I took little interest in the last two, which are BS, and focused on the Book of Satan and Lucifer. (although there were some interesting theories for magic and supernatural in Balial) Imo, LaVey’s Satanism is not more than a shallowly laid out, but healthy philosophy, enriched with stuff like big spooky Voodoo magic etc., and used the name “Satan”, mostly for marketing, as much as he complains how people demonize him because of it.
Book of Lucifer, summed up following the subchapters
A Satanist denounces completely the concept of the Christian God, God’s will, a God to be feared, a God Judge... He sees God (if at all) as pantheistic and as the balancing power in nature. Existentialist influences in Satanism manifest in the principle that the highest God an individual may have is oneself, and you’re responsible to no God but yourself. LaVey then goes on to predict the emergence of the “New Satanic Age”, in more down-to-earth words, Age of individualism, self-indulgence, death of transcendental morality. He also reveals and efficiently unmasks Christian propaganda with the name of Satan (“the best friend the Church has ever had”) and makes relevance to the pagan understanding of “Satan” and all the pagan Satanic deities which were respected and praised. Then he has a chapter of explaining what Satan is to a believer, and why Satan should not be feared, but embraced. Satan - human’s dark side, the necessary balancing side of cosmic order as he says, imo, correlates to Freud’s subconscious. Furthermore, Satanism denounces the concept of Christian love (turn the other cheek), and balances love and hate, both as natural constituent spheres of human personality. Next chapter, he swears allegiance to the carnal desires and self-indulgence, in other words, complete sexual freedom, as opposed to Christian abstinence and compulsion. He offers a rather interesting analysis of so called “emotional vampires”, people which thrive on other people’s emotional weaknesses and take advantage of them, and advices how to deal with them. Satanists refuse spiritual self-control, as means of taming one’s desires and support indulgence and gratification of earthly pleasures, which is not to say spiritual well-being is discouraged, but simply less attention is paid to it. A very controversial discussion about human sacrifice: It’s strongly against Satanic codes to sacrifice any animal, but on the other hand, human sacrifice is acceptable, if the victim is someone who has inflicted great evil upon you and if the magician finds pleasure in performing the ritual. (compare it with all the deaths in the name of God, during the time of the Inquisition and earlier). Satanists mock other religions when they encourage people to accept death as some kind of spiritual awakening, leaving behind earthly life which was just an intro for the big thing to come. They believe in life after death through fulfillment of the ego. Namely if your ego is vital, after your body dies, your ego wont die. (not surprisingly, LaVey doesn’t say much here what happens to it) He opposes the Eastern practice of dissolution and denial of man’s ego in search for “Universal Cosmic Awareness” to the Satanic encouragement for ego-fulfillment. A quote at this point wouldn’t be bad: “Religionists have kept their followers in line by suppressing their egos. By making their followers feel inferior, the awesomeness of their god is insured. Satanism encourages its members to develop a good strong ego because it gives them the self-respect necessary for a vital existence in this life.” In the end, a final critic for religious holidays, and a diachronic and synchronic presentation of the Black Mass and that concludes the Book of Lucifer.
Satanism is indeed in many ways the complete opposite of Christianity, and on some points balancing inbetween. The short philosophic summary I provided above is mainly what Satanism stands for ethically. The only thing I can object is the lack of empathy for innocent people, and the struggle to give everybody an equal chance (although Satanism isnt explicitly against it); and the concept of human sacrifice. All the rest, I’m a strong supporter of. Unfortunately I can only say the opposite for Christianity, excluding maybe a thing or two, like with Satanism. That said, I wish to point out that contrary to what many people think, if everyone on Earth followed this philosophy, we’d have a much more peaceful world, full of understanding and happiness and without frustrated manipulated wackoes trying to kill one another.
You may go on with your exorcism. 
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Korejora
Promising
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posted January 10, 2005 05:06 AM |
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You did a much better job of presenting the Satanism than I did, Svarog 
Anyway, I agree. And I repeat: IMHO, if everyone followed the Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth and no one did any of the Nine Satanic Sins the world would be a much better place than it is now. More peaceful, more happy, more understood...
We're getting a bit off-topic, though, unless you can tell me what this has to do with miracles 
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That's the best part.
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted January 10, 2005 05:19 AM |
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Quote:
That depends on whether we choose to believe that the Ten Commandments and such were made by mere priests.
You surely dont believe God made them?
korejora, dont worry about the offtopicness. its irrelevant as long as we keep the discussion vital.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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guitarguy
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Rockoon.
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posted January 10, 2005 05:28 AM |
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I just wonder why this guy would idolize Satan, the Christian figure for God's opposite. Why continue to use a name that is drawn from the religion you're shooting down? You'd think he'd choose another name. That's my question to that Svarog guy. I don't expect a reply from him, though
-guitarguy
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted January 10, 2005 05:32 AM |
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Boohoo! Because I'm a crazy Satanist, I guess.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Shiva
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 10, 2005 05:50 AM |
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Edited By: Shiva on 10 Jan 2005
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Well, well...Savarog the idealistic socialist reveals himself as a Satanist. Since Satanism is essentially about gratifying one's ego, I'm not sure I can call you an idealist anymore. And that is essentially why this ill thought out philosophy would never make this a better world as you claim. First, what you said.
Quote:
The only thing I can object is the lack of empathy for innocent people, and the struggle to give everybody an equal chance (although Satanism isnt explicitly against it); and the concept of human sacrifice
I have to laugh..the only things It is precisely the lack of compassion that dooms this kind of thinking. It already exists in much of world and is responsible for making it a higly competitive, capalistic world. In fact, capitalism at its essence is pure greed which is quite satanic. So you want a capitalistic world?
Only a little thing, human sacrifice? Are you kidding me?
This a barbaric attempt to gain personal power and magic through the release of some innocents life force. It doesn't even work, but deluded people think it does.
And now for the Satanic master, some excerpts from the 11 rules and 9 sins.
Quote:
4. If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy
A guest in your lair? Makes it sound like we are wild beasts..maybe sometimes humanity is close to that, but surely we need to try for better. Treat him without mercy if he annoys you? Annoying is to easy. Defend your life if you must, but if I did in all those who annoyed me, well, there wouldnt be much left. Simply put, this rule is ill stated and can be greatly misunderstood. It has no business being used a supposed law to guide people.
There are a few like don't harm children which I agree with, but, again, there is no room for such ill stated things in a philosphy which purports to guide people.
How about the sins. Heres one Quote:
. Solipsism—Can be very dangerous for Satanists. Projecting your reactions, responses and sensibilities onto someone who is probably far less attuned than you are. It is the mistake of expecting people to give you the same consideration, courtesy and respect that you naturally give them. They won’t. Instead, Satanists must strive to apply the dictum of “Do unto others as they do unto you.” It’s work for most of us and requires constant vigilance lest you slip into a comfortable illusion of everyone being like you. As has been said, certain utopias would be ideal in a nation of philosophers, but unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately, from a Machiavellian standpoint) we are far from that point.
Do unto others as they do unto you. Lets see, my Uncle molested me as a kid, so I should molest people. Someone cut me off in my car, so I should do that also. I got mugged the other day, let me mug them back. Isn't that, again, the way the world already is? Violence begets more violence, and so the cycle in the Middle East goes on for ever? This will not work at all, except to perpetuate every ugly trait of humanity that has plagued the world since time began, whenever that is.
At least "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"
makes as attempt to instill an ideal that breaks the cycle of ignorance. Which leads me too:
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7. Forgetfulness of Past Orthodoxies—Be aware that this is one of the keys to brainwashing people into accepting something new and different, when in reality it’s something that was once widely accepted but is now presented in a new package. We are expected to rave about the genius of the creator and forget the original. This makes for a disposable society.
This is exactly what these rules are trying to do, repackaging ego indulgence and illusory freedom in such a way that maybe you will find it attractive. If you truly think for yourself, there will be no philosophy that you can read anywhere that can suit you, except the one that is printed in your own true heart. Find that, and forget about playing with these inadequate ways of thinking.
I could go on..maybe later
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guitarguy
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Rockoon.
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posted January 10, 2005 09:32 AM |
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Memorize all that stuff by heart and I'll give you some major credit.
-guitarguy
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Shiva
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 10, 2005 04:47 PM |
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Here is something called "The Four Agreements" by the
Toltec master Don Miguel Ruiz:
http://www.miguelruiz.com/agreements.html
Why I like something like this is the simplicity and
integrity contained in the words. For those that don't
want to click the link, here they are: (although there
are further explanations there)
1)Don’t Make Assumptions
2)Be Impeccable With Your Word
3)Don’t Take Anything Personally
4)Always Do Your Best
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted January 11, 2005 02:14 AM |
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Well, well...Savarog the idealistic socialist reveals himself as a Satanist.
he he, starting from here where you confused three of my identities. First, it’s Svarog. Next, I have no idea where you got the idea that I was idealist. Possibly the common misconception people have about socialism being idealistic, but that’s in a different connotation. There’s a major difference between being visionary and being idealistic. I dont build my philosophy on ideas, but on crude practice and experience. And third, I’m not a Satanist; I said, I used to be. The fact that I’ve got a full load of things against Christianity, and that opposing them finds its reflection in Satanic ideas, doesn’t turn me into their incarnation.
I like how you detect seemingly unresolvable contradictions between Satanism and socialist humanism. However, you only radicalized what I said about Satanism, about the things I condemn. Nevertheless, both doctrines have an essential core principle in common, and that is the strive for complete individual freedom. They only apply on two different but complementary levels – individual and social one.
Socialism mediates between the individual and the outer forces in pursuit of ultimate freedom, whereas Satanism does the same with the inner forces. (note related terms to Satanism: existentialism, individualism.) In this aspect (their goal), they are quite complementary; much in the way Sartre reconciled socialism and existentialism.
It is true however, that a delicate balance must exist between the two, or else either a groups rights may trump on individual’s rights, or an individuals rights may trump on other individuals rights. In order for them to coexist and synthesize effectively, I believe we must cripple the two ideologies on few crucial points, that could prove destructive for one another. Namely, socialism tendency to enforce equality, and Satanist tendency to doesn’t care about it. I believe a global awareness of egalitarianism must be reached, before these two could function together in harmony.
This is not to say that Satanism rejects compassion, but merely doesn’t enforce it, as Christian dogma does (which is just exerting emotional control over believers). Anything that isnt alien to human urges, is also not alien to Satanism. Here, we come upon the dilemma of whether compassion is a natural or learned behavior. If it’s natural, then it’s Satanic; if it’s learned its anti-Satanic, in which case, as I said, I differ from Satanism that much.
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A guest in your lair? Makes it sound like we are wild beasts..maybe sometimes humanity is close to that, but surely we need to try for better.
Satanic rethoric can be somewhat.. rejecting, but you guessed why is that.
We are essentially wild animals, with our inner being in constant opposition with our cultured one. In the development of that opposition as we grow slowly two spheres begin to polarize, the hidden (dark side) and exposed (accepted) nature of our egos. This is not freedom. Satanism is about discovering that “demon” part of you, and embracing it. “Indulgence” has a negative association to it, but in fact it’s just embracing the demon inside you, embracing the whole you. I’m not saying we should all get our butts naked and grab our females for the hair and move to caves. No, a process of socialization is necessary (since man is a social creature), but it should feel like freely filling an intricately made vase with liquid, and getting the desired shape without pressing the liquid.
Should you kill someone if they annoy you? I don’t think anyone has needs to kill when annoyed. Animals don’t, they only protect themselves.
Should you kill someone if deep inside you feel you have to? I say you should. Animals kill if they feel extremely threatened.
Should you revenge someone for the sake of your own pleasure? I say you should if you want to, but you’ll only find later that revenge doesn’t bring pleasure. Animals don’t revenge, they only neutralize.
Satanists don’t live in a dreamland, and they know that not all people are compassionate, so they’re prepared what to expect and how to act. A Satanist isnt an emotional slave to morality, gods or other people. A Satanist accepts his emotions as reflective totality of who he is. He indulges, he feels, he lives. He doesn’t abstain, control or wait to live. He exists here and now, and intends to use every moment of that precious time that is given to him.
I unintentionally took the role of devil’s advocate (literally, i see ), so I repeat I don’t stand for everything that Satanism stands for, along with every stupid marketing line written (as with “treat your guest cruelly”), only the ideas that I elaborate on when I post. I don’t wish this to turn into “find a stupider Satanic command, and see how Svarog justifies it” game. Once again, Satanism is ethical philosophy created to deal with matters on (intra)personal level, not design social systems, and is best presented when observed from that standpoint.
Wow, cant remember the last time i’ve been so constructive. So proud of myself.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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