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| Thread: How pen!ses determined the course of history | |
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Svarog
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statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted January 09, 2005 03:51 AM |
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How pen!ses determined the course of history
In the Macedonian Orthodox Calendar (Julian calendar), January is the month with the most religious holidays. Among them is 14 January. On this day our Church (and most likely most Orthodox churches) mark three sacred occasions, the most important being the Day of Christ’s circumcision. The historical importance of this day is not connected with Jesus genitals really, but some events which took place several decades later and set the course of history for the next two millennia.
As much as the teachings of Jesus himself are responsible for the way history has turned out to be, so too is the decision of the Christian Church of Jerusalem, which released new believers from the obligation of circumcision. This act is also considered as the greatest compromise in the history of mankind.
In order to understand these “heavy” clashes in the minds of the early Christians, we’ll use a short Biblical history about the treatment of man’s most important organ. Interpreted as simple as possible.
According to the Holy Book, the first man created by God, Adam, wasn’t circumcised. Neither were Cain and Abel, nor Noah, the man who survived the Great Flood with his sons. The first Biblical dude who was given the vow for circumcision by God was Abraham, the ancestor of the Jews and Muslims. Later the vow was repeated to Moses. God commanded that every male child when he’s 8 days old, be circumcised. How serious was God with this quirk of His, can be illustrated by the fact that Abraham himself was 99 when that “end of his body” was cut off. (ouch!)
Centuries later, the newborn Jesus in Bethlehem, as any other male Jewish baby, was taken to the temple and circumcised by the priests, when he was only 8. Days, that is. And hence the holyday on 14 January (because the Orthodox Christmas is on 7th January; though I lose a day in the math  ). Jesus was baptized when he was 30, crucified and resurrected at 33. And then he flew up the sky, leaving us here on Earth to believe in him until the day of his triumphant return, if we want to be saved from Hell.
The biggest believers in this, and thus, preachers of the new faith (by that time, still the rank of a Jewish sect) were the Apostles Peter and Paul. In the beginning, the new believers were recruited only among the Jews, but in time other (non-Jewish) subject people in the Roman Empire showed interest. And this became a big problem. Namely, those who wanted to become Christians and weren’t Jews were reluctant to accept the new religion, dreading the practice of circumcision of all males. On the other hand, the disciples of Christ were condemned by the Jews, because they hanged around with non-Jews and allowed them to become Christians without circumcision.
The arguments about this issue were becoming nastier, so on Peter and Paul insisting, a meeting Christian Church of Jerusalem was held in Jerusalem (where else?), attended by the apostles and the elders. After a long debate, an agreement was reached, much to Peter, Paul and Jacob’s delight – the men of non-Jewish descent that want to convert don’t necessarily have to convert their pagan pen!ses with them. The compromise was that for that favor, they are required to respect Moses laws.
All Christian communities were informed about this decision, and soon thereafter, the number of non-Jewish Christians started to increase rapidly, in spite of the bloody oppression by the Roman authorities. The surprise came from the fact that the new religion spread westward, and not to the East as was told in the scriptures.
After this decision, Paul went on his first trip to Europe, to Macedonia where he converted the first Europeans to Christianity. The first Macedonian girl was called Lidia, and after that he converted many other Macedonians, as is said in Acts of the Apostles.
In conclusion, one can only wonder if Christianity would have become the religion of Europe and have the known impact on the history of humanity and not remain just another Jewish sect, if it wasn’t the flexibility of few elders in the old Church of Jerusalem. That failed, one can also wonder if the pagan men of Europe would have eventually had the guts to compensate for the foreskin, and keep the course of history as we know it, but given the phallo-centric universe of the European man, I honestly doubt it.
Next time when you check your willie in the bathroom, please give him more credit for his role in determining the history of the world. And you thought only few women owe him. 
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Svarog
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statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted January 09, 2005 03:53 AM |
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Hmmm, I dont know if this quelifies as an "educational article". LOL
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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guitarguy
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Rockoon.
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posted January 09, 2005 04:33 AM |
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Interesting views, nonetheless. Something we don't usually think about.
-guitarguy
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ratmonky
Famous Hero
Abu Hur Ibn Rashka
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posted January 09, 2005 06:19 PM |
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Quote:
Centuries later, the newborn Jesus in Bethlehem, as any other male Jewish baby, was taken to the temple and circumcised by the priests, when he was only 8. Days, that is. And hence the holyday on 14 January (because the Orthodox Christmas is on 7th January; though I lose a day in the math ).
you lose a day in the math because now almost all Christian Churches including Orthodox Church celebrate Christmas on a wrong date. Only Armenian Apostolic Church (and maybe Coptic Church too) celebrate it on the correct day that is January 6. I don't know exactly how the date was calculated (i think they counted 9 months from the birth of Christ as described in Luke's Gospel).
Romans combined Christmas with the Pagan Feast of Sun or whatever it was called which they celebrated on December 25. If i remember correctly in 11th or 12th century under the pressure of Patriarch of Constantinopole, Orthodox Church began to celebrate Christmas on December 25 too. When Russian Empire, Greece and the rest of Eastern Europe changed to Gregorian calendar in 20th century the difference between the calendars was 13 days, so they began to celebrate Christmas on January 7, 13 days after Catholic Christmas.
This should explain everything.
A very interesting thread, btw!
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Dies illa, dies irae,
Calamitatis et miseriae.
Requiem aeternum
Dona eis, dona eis Domine.
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Svarog
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statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted January 10, 2005 02:22 AM |
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I dont think I lost that day. Perhaps they counted the day of birth also. Its likely that if u, armenians, celebrate christmas on 6th, then u'll get christ's circumcision on 13th.
for the catholics and protestants, that day would be 1st january, which is interesting, since instead of saying AD (Anno Domini - year of our lord), we should more correctly say ACD (Anno Circumcismus Domini - year of our lord's circumcision)
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Only Armenian Apostolic Church (and maybe Coptic Church too) celebrate it on the correct day that is January 6. I don't know exactly how the date was calculated
I also dont know why Armenian christmas is one day earlier than the other Orthodox churches, but they are both wrong. the orthodox use a clendar thats more than 2000 years old. The early Christians celebrated Christmas on 25 Dec, according to the calendar of the period, and also the day corresponded with 4 days after the winter solstice (21st). as it is, the orthodox churches stubbornly grasp for the julian calndar (not like u say, "changed to the gregorian calendar", which has never happened. in fact the only orthodox churches that accepted it are greek, romanian, and only much later the bulgarian (1970s)), which has a discrepancy with the solstices; and since secularly the gregorian is in use, they miss the date of christ's birth. the only thing they manage to hold on, is the fact that precisely 2004 x 365 + 2004/4 days have passed since the birth of christ, but in reality the earth lags back in orbit for the orthodox.
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Romans combined Christmas with the Pagan Feast of Sun or whatever it was called which they celebrated on December 25. If i remember correctly in 11th or 12th century under the pressure of Patriarch of Constantinopole, Orthodox Church began to celebrate Christmas on December 25 too.
actually the pagan festival for the winter solstice was on 21st Dec, not 25th, so Christmas was not combined.
I dont know about the orthodox switch to gregorian calendar during that time (quite possibly, due to the Crusades, and the Latin Empire), but they surely resumed their stubborn habbit of miscalculating the time after the restoration of Byzantia.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Khaelo
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Underwater
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posted January 10, 2005 03:03 AM |
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two cents
Dec. 25th was the birthday of Mithras, a rival mystery religion in Rome at the time Christianity was developing. So, yes, the date was stolen. I don't know why solar-associate Mithras's birthday was four days off the winter solstice.
The whole thing is pretty goofy since, according to scholars' best estimates, Jesus was actually born in April of 4 BCE. 
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Shai-Hulud
Known Hero
Sicomor
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posted January 10, 2005 03:57 AM |
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Quote:
in fact the only orthodox churches that accepted it are greek, romanian, and only much later the bulgarian (1970s)), which has a discrepancy with the solstices; and since secularly the gregorian is in use, they miss the date of christ's birth. the only thing they manage to hold on, is the fact that precisely 2004 x 365 + 2004/4 days have passed since the birth of christ, but in reality the earth lags back in orbit for the orthodox.
Yes, indeed, romanians had done it in 1928 . don't ask me why but it's so..i have to mention the fact that you can still find churces and people having their ways after the julian calendar.. I've been at one for about 6 sundays.. Kinda interesting indeed the way they think(I'm kinda of mixture between old style orthodoxism, new style orthodox and budist), but someo g them just have a pride for beeing that way.. In fact one of my friends got baptized at 16 years in the old style churces, and my history teacher from the gimnazium was one. Learnt many things from both of them..
Regarding old style orthodoxism.. It seems I can't figure way this rule: If you shave off your moustache is a sin, as bad as making sex with your mother! Svarog, beacuse you're an old style orthodox, can you make some researches on this, please? Also, if you are a priest you MUST leave your beard grow as much it grows, also your hair.And one more thing, but this one I like.. If you want to become a priest, you must be virgin till the day you get to be one, altough after that as I know you can get married and have kids..
Mmm.. one more question Svarog.. it seems that in the past time you have been making some threadd about.. let's just say delicate subjects( you know what I mean.. )..Is it me or I'm starting belivening that your love iwth those statues ain't going well, just beacuse... 
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~~~Azzy~~~
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Svarog
Honorable
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statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted January 10, 2005 05:12 AM |
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Quote:
The whole thing is pretty goofy since, according to scholars' best estimates, Jesus was actually born in April of 4 BCE.
Yes, I've heard this, but its the historians guess. Church says (and consequently the logic of the calendar implies) that he was born 25 December 1 BC.
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Svarog, beacuse you're an old style orthodox, can you make some researches on this, please?
NO. haha.. What is this BS with old style/new style orthodox? There isnt such division, except the one concerning the calendar, but religious practices have nothing to do with it. They depend entirely on each autocephalous church's own tradition and general orthodox canons. Shaving is definately not a sin (lol! where did u get that from?). And as far as priests are concerned, yes, they are expected to keep their beards and hair, for which I couldnt care less (cos I'm not a believer).
anyway, this was a thread about pen!ses, goddamnit.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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terje_the_ma...
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Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
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posted January 10, 2005 02:40 PM |
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Quote:
The whole thing is pretty goofy since, according to scholars' best estimates, Jesus was actually born in April of 4 BCE.
Religion is goofy
And isn't that date found through some rather doubious astronomical calculations and guesses? Not too academical, as far as I can se...
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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ratmonky
Famous Hero
Abu Hur Ibn Rashka
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posted January 10, 2005 05:50 PM |
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well, we have to agree that all these dates are to some extend relative, and the idea of celebration of Christ's birthday is more important than the correct day of his birthday.
and about circumcision. Herodote writes that ancient Egyptians practiced circumcision and I think Jews and Arabs took the tradition of circumcision from Egyptians.
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Dies illa, dies irae,
Calamitatis et miseriae.
Requiem aeternum
Dona eis, dona eis Domine.
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Khaelo
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Supreme Hero
Underwater
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posted January 10, 2005 05:59 PM |
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I don't know where April comes from, but the year is because Herod the Great died in 4 BCE (source: Josepheus). The Gospels with birth narratives -- Mt. 2.1, Lk 1.5 -- both place Jesus' birth in Herod's reign. Since Herod's death caused some chaos, it would have been a memorable watershed, and the Gospel writers are unlikely to have gotten this wrong. Conclusion: whoever came up with the year 1 made an error.
To make Svarog happy: pen!ses, pen!ses, pen!ses. There, this post is now on-topic.
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Svarog
Honorable
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statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted January 11, 2005 02:28 AM |
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Quote:
pen!ses, pen!ses, pen!ses.
YAY!
Although Khaelo, you do surprise.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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terje_the_ma...
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Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
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posted January 11, 2005 12:40 PM |
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Weird. At CFC they changed the title, here it stays the same...
Good thing HC isn't too puritanical
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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