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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Gypsies
Thread: Gypsies
Svarog
Svarog


Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
posted January 16, 2005 05:43 AM

Gypsies

...continuing from the discussion in another thread.
a bit of intro from there:

Svarog said:
Quote:
And I refuse to believe the gypsies are that bad. But what do I know...

Of course they are not. Thing is, xenophobia and racism against gypsies today in Europe (obviosly these countries are not "Europe", no matter how hard they strive to belong there) is amazingly strong, even rivals the Apartheid. If anyone has seen the slums where Roma live, without basic sanitary conditions, the huge number of Roma kids begging on the streets for charity, its terrible, and at the same time there are very decent consitions for the majority. If this is not Apartheid, i dont know what is.
Sure, they are equal in the face of the law, but they are discriminated against and prevented from taking part in normal social life. Also mental matrix of the majority needs to be changed. And at the same time, Gypsy culture is one of the most influensive factors in the development of Balkan music. Sad really.


Consis said:
Very Interesting

I must tell you that I find this relation of Gypsy stigma to western Apartheid very interesting. I commonly refer to my own mother and older sister as a "gypsy". I call them this because they are never stable people. They donot value what I value. I like to live in a home that does not move. I like to have the same job for a long time and then retire from it. But my mother and sister travel A LOT and they reject authority. When people tell them they are breaking the law by what they say or do then they want to do it even more. That is why I call my sister and mother a "gypsy".

But the strange thing is americans don't have the same thinking as Europeans. I do because of all the time I spend listening to everyone talk in this place. But most americans think a gypsy is like a witch that travels with a wagon and crystal ball of clairvoyance. Our hollywood(t.v./movies) always makes gypsies look like this. They wear some kind of bandanna over their head with very large bulky silver earrings most likely made from silverware eating utensils. Strange isn't it; how americans associate "gypsy" with magic, mysiticism, taro cards, palm reading, etc? But europeans associate them with poverty, thievery, and lawlessness you say? Hmm strange indeed.

Oh by the way Svarog. You mispelled something:
Quote:
Gypsy culture is one of the most influensive factors in the development of Balkan music.

The word is influence. The proper usage of the way you had it is influencial. Influensive isn't really a word but the way you spelled it makes it sound like you meant flu-like(as in the gypsies gave balkan music the flu). I know you didn't mean to make it sound like they caught a cold virus but I thought it sounded funny. I don't normally correct anyone because I make many mistakes too. I don't mean any offense. I thought it was funny-sounding.

terje said:
Now, Norway hasn't treated it's traveling people any better; it's only 30 years since the government stopped taking childern away from their parents if they were "gypsies" (I don't know how related they were, but Norwegian "gypsies" had much the same lifestyle as continental European ones), sterilizing them, and shooting their horses if they came to close to where "decent" people lived (imagine the disaster it must have been for the "gypsy" family; losing their only means of transportation in what was practically "enemy territory").

"We" also did this to psychical retarded people, so it seems we learned more than we're willing to admit during the German occupation...

Thank god this barbary has ceased here at least...


Shai Hulud said:
Svarog... you really talk without knowing stuff around here.. I'm here and I know it, believe me..I'm not a racist( if I were a racist I wouldn't had written that 90% ..)Let me give you a simple example.. If the local mafia needs to kill somebody, they pay a few gypsies to do it. How do I know?!? Well simple.. I gad my share of disscusions at a beer in which people from the mafia were taking part. Also you talking about the beggers.. Well belive me, not all beggers are gypsy. Many of them are abandonned kids and stuff. It is just the fact that orphelinates can't handle the situation. Also saw at TV many cases of gypsies who went to France and other UE countries and obliged their kids to beg. Also, not all gypsies are very poor people. If you go to village near Galatz, you could see REAL PALACES that belong to gypsies. Seen pictures of them. The ruler of gypsies, called King of Gypsies in Romania, has a real gold crown.

So in conclusion.. you got on my nerves. Next time, please don't talk without informing. You really know many things, but no need to say things you only speculate.
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Svarog
Svarog


Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
posted January 16, 2005 05:46 AM bonus applied.
Edited By: Svarog on 15 Jan 2005

Quote:
So in conclusion.. you got on my nerves. Next time, please don't talk without informing. You really know many things, but no need to say things you only speculate.

Speaking about talking without informing, you’d better download and check out this report, published by the European Commission in November 2004, “The Situation of Roma in an enlarged European Union”.
http://www.errc.org/cikk.php?cikk=2119
It is a lengthy material but it covers the subject pretty good. Suffice is to say that in the report the EU labels the Roma problem as “among Europe’s most pressing human rights, political and social issues”, both in the EU and beyond its current borders.

Secondly, if you talk about Romas from a viewpoint of superiorness, as I see you do, instead of compassion, I have no choice but to call you a racist.

The mysterious Gypsy fortuneteller stereotype most people in the West (especially Americans, thanks to J-Lo among other things) have about Roma, is a romanticized image of their lifestyle some decades ago. Nowdays most Roma communities have abandoned their traveling lifestyle and settled for good, which has brought a change in their culture, but also many of the old traditions still find a reflection in their current way of life.

However, through history, Roma have been marked with stigma, and have always been marginalized in society, which remains the same to this day. One professor who has studied Roma history, concerning the sad history of Gypsy prosecutions said: “When a Gypsy from Eastern Europe meets his brother from the West, actually a former victim of slavery meets a former victim of genocide.”
In spite all the discriminating treatment, the Ottoman Empire was relatively a more tolerant environment for early migrating Romas in the Middle Ages, than the West (remember “The bellringer of Notre dame”). That’s why today the biggest Roma communities are in Bulgaria, Romania, countries of former Yugoslavia, but also Hungary, Czech Rep., Poland, Slovakia. It is estimated that around 12 million of Roma live in Europe, a number larger than the overall population of most EU member states.
But despite their significant population, Roma today are the most stigmatized and discriminated ethnic community in Europe, both Eastern and Western.
Its almost amazing how there can still exist racism and discrimination in European countries to such extent, along with the numerous declarations and law provisions for equal treatment of all ethnicities. Thing is, the mentality of the people, as you truthfully presented Shai-Hulud, is something that no laws can change.

For a start, there are also legal problems, like the fact that some governments dont recognize the existence of Roma communities in their countries and don’t provide for such a category in the national censuses. Gypsies live in ghetto areas within cities and towns, where they are segregated from the rest of society. There are extremely poor sanitary and infrastructure conditions (lousy roads, electrical installation, canalization, water supply), and most of the dwellings are shacks or run-down houses. Near these ghettos there are schools for Roma kids, where they learn (need I say, overcrowded and of poor quality), but most of them finish their schooling before they go to highschool, because they have no money to continue their education and need to find a way to support their family. Some of them are on the streets even before they turn 5, and don’t go to school at all. Then they grow up, find a low-paid job (or more likely live of social wealthfare), have a bunch of kids, and many end up drunkards, beggars, minor criminals, prostitutes, or selling stuff on the black market to survive. Often, the lack of a proper education causes them to keep on this trend with their kids and they force them to leave school and start begging or working. It’s a vicious cycle that cant be easily broken. It is not a rare sight in Eastern Europe to see young Roma kids on the streets, racing with the street lights to clean the front glass of standing cars in exchange for a few coins, 19yearold mothers with newborn babies going from car to car and begging for money, and 3-4yearolds naked Gypsy kids lying on a cupboard in the middle of a bridge asking for money.
I think education is the key factor here, and governments and the majority don’t want Roma children to mix with “ordinary” children in schools and that’s why they segregate them in the ghetto schools. Needless to say, they’re also not interested to provide them with better conditions. Health facilities for Roma are also substandard.
In the rare cases when Roma do dare to mix with the majority, they are target of violent attacks by some groups (for e.g. skinheads), people see them with different eyes (they are easy to distinguish, due to the darker complexion), consider them “dirty and stinky”, and that’s why Roma prefer to stick to their own kind.
Also, police, local government, courts, doctors etc. often discriminate them and don’t offer the same quality of services as they do to other people. They view them with prejudice and base their treatment on such prejudices, which is a clear manifestation of racism. The fact that most Gypsies don’t have the education and common culture needed to communicate with authorities only complicates the matter. Lack of documentation is a problem too in legal procedures. For example, almost all Roma houses are illegal buildings, and even though the authorities tolerate them most of the time, they are free to demolish them whenever they feel like it (usually when a rich ass businessman needs a clear space, or when they want to demonstrate to the public the “rule of law”)
As I said, without a decent education, many Roma end up selling on the black market (and the police especially enjoys to destroy their stands), begging etc. (especially in Macedonia, with 40% unemployed, where even those with college degree cant find a job). However, they don’t run the mafia, most of them are just petty criminals looking for money to buy cigarettes (they all smoke) and food for their families. Often, the criminal groups (and beggars) are organized in clans, and there’s usually one Gypsy guy who’s like the godfather and they are responsible to him. These few individuals are usually the ones with the palaces, that Shai talks about. Still these palaces are located in the ghettos and its really interesting to see the contrasts there. (funny though, how these Gypsy “kings” turn their houses in kitsch palaces, and want to show off their wealth with extremely stupid things. Like, most expensive mobile phones, and his wife still hand-washes, or fancy sport cars decorated with all kinds of rugs and the most horrible aesthetical combinations)

Situation of Roma in Macedonia

I’m proud to say that the position of Gypsies in Macedonia with regard to equal treatment is the best among countries outside the EU (even possibly within EU), even though there’s still a lot that needs to be done.
Roma are granted constitutional rights. They have representatives in the Parliament, the government (because one of the two Roma political parties is part of the ruling coalition), representatives on regional level, one municipality has a Roma mayor etc.
There are two private TV stations broadcasting programme in Roma language (here's the site of one of them: http://tvsutel.s5.com/), and the national TV station also broadcasts in Romani for a set number of hours per week. There are programmes in primary schools for standardized teaching in Romani language, and there’s a branch for Roma language and culture on the Skopje University. The language was a problem, until a standardized grammar for Roma language was published as a result of the joint effort of a Macedonian linguist and Roma intellectual (don’t remember the year), and that enabled these educational programs to take place, unlike the rest of Europe, where education is exclusively in the national language. And there’s a state quota reserved for Roma students on the state universities. Roma, as all ethnic communities in Macedonia are guaranteed proportional representation in state institutions (army, police, administration) as of recently (the Ohrid agreement of 2001).
Roma musical artists and folk ensembles are one of the best cultural representatives Macedonia has for the outside world. Esma Rexhepova, King Neat Veliov and Kocani Orchestra, Ferus Mustafov are names of the musicians that are well famous in Europe for those people which are interested in so called “world music”, and their concerts are always sold wherever they perform. Roma heritage is well incorporated in Balkan folk music, even though many are reluctant to admit it. Goran Bregovic, the most famous Balkan musician (originally a Serb from Bosnia; composes world music, film and classical music), draws heavily from Roma musical influences and actually stopped writing his songs in Serbian and replaced it with Romani. For the New Years Eve he had a concert in Skopje and in one interview to this question he answered: “I grew up speaking a language which doesn’t exist now (Serbo-Croatian). I have no reason to write in this language any more. Romani is one very interesting language where almost all words rhyme, and there are no taboos in it. Curse words are used freely and interchangeably with normal words, which gives the language a friendly soul, unlike any other in the world.”
If you’re interested in watching films featuring Roma culture and way of life, some of the most successful ones (from European film festivals) are “Black pus$y (she-cat), white cat (male cat)” directed by Emir Kosturica, “Gypsy magic” (Macedonian production), “Time of the Gypsies”.

Having said all of this, Macedonian Roma still face more or less the same problems I mentioned above, as their European brothers do. For example, segregation in education is still present, and there are only two Gypsies, as I could notice, in the school where I studied, which is considered as more “elite”, so to say. However, the other secondary schools (“less elite” ones) offer a nice mix of ethnicities, including Roma, but it’s a bad thing as much as it’s a good thing, because almost all the kids that finish here don’t continue to college. Statistics still say the number of illiterates is disproportionally higher in the Roma population.
Some Roma with lighter complexion find life a lot easier because they are able to integrate within society a lot easier, but sometimes they forget about their identity in exchange for a life in disguise as “ordinary” citizen, which is sad imo.


And when you hear how all this crap happens in the middle of Europe, you’d wonder yourself how those people would feel. Are they depressive, sad, introvert?
And the most wonderful thing about Gypsies is they are the complete opposite of that. All they care about is music, dancing, weddings and good mood. Even having a roof over your head is not as important as making an extravagant wedding for one of your 3 daughters that is getting married, on which all the Roma from the neighborhood, acquaintances or not, are invited, and everyone sings and dances and drinks all night. Then you spend all you have, but who cares, because Roma live day by day. If theres nothing for today, don’t worry, tomorrow will be better. Maybe the romantic image of Gypsies is not that far away from the truth after all.
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IYY
IYY


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REDACTED
posted January 16, 2005 05:46 AM

I like gypsies. Their music is cool.
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Consis
Consis


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
posted January 16, 2005 07:51 AM
Edited By: Consis on 16 Jan 2005

I Am Honored

I'm honored that you would include my input in your thread Svarog; especially a thread of such quality. I would not be surprised if it was rewarded a well-deserved Qp for its thorough informative approach toward human civil rights. The plight of the European gypsy culture seems quite foreign to me. I pre-apologize for using a foreign example with which to compare but I have never met/seen a gypsy person.

I'd never known such was the case with the gypsy culture. You speak of them as though they are widely thought of in the way that many Americans think of its own hispanic population. They too have their own language and most American educational programs are given in english(the official national language). But even more exotic still is the difference between my American hispanic population to your gypsy Macedonian population. Many Americans do treat the hispanics the way you say Europeans treat gypsies; and also our hispanic population is very much a seasoned culture of great weddings, unique music and dance, and other such artistic forms of culturally unique expression.

There are some interesting differences though. Hispanic Americans are largely Roman Catholic and mostly live in extremely poor homes containing large families plus relatives. It is generally thought that the poor hispanic population are people who have illegally immigrated from Mexico. Because of this there is great concern among many ignorant/paranoid conservative Americans who believe they pose a great threat to our economy. They say that illegal immigrants come here and work for less than most americans(which is true in many cases). They are also afraid these people are causing businesses to flock toward cheap labor and thus causing economic deflation. This is also associated with what you said, Svarog, about people with college degrees that can't get a job. These highly educated people demand higher salaries thus encouraging wealthy-moderate business owners to look elsewhere for cheaper labor. The common argument among these people is that "Americans are losing jobs to immigrants." Another distinction I have is that our poor Hispanic population has never really been generally thought of as nomadic. I think this was a major characteristic associated with the gypsy culture yes?

I don't know if the Macedonian Gypsy population experience similar fears/stigmas placed upon them by the other citizens. From what it sounds like to me, this might be among the complaints in the circles of prejudice people in Macedonia. I am also led to wonder about gypsy citizenship in European countries. You might recall this particular issue as having great importance in our last election. I wonder if gypsies are given more, the same, or less requirements than other foreigners seeking citizenship to European nations.
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Svarog
Svarog


Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
posted January 17, 2005 05:42 AM
Edited By: Svarog on 16 Jan 2005

Consis, like u assumed, the compaarisson with the US Hispanic minority is not entirely correct, although the best one you could make. Mainly cos its about immigrant culture in US, and in Europe, Roma are usually native residents (or had immigrated long time ago). But also Roma are much more stigmatized than the Hispanics, which nailed them on the margins of society even though several centuries have passed since they settled here. And last, the mentality of Roma is after all still one of travelers people and the old way of thinking is still much present.
Citizenship isnt a major issue, cos as I said, Roma are not recent immigrants. But if you look in the Personal Documentation section from the report I linked for downloading, u'd see that citizenship is still a problem in some countries, mainly due to buearocratic procedures for getting one.




Here're some pictures of ghetto Roma from Macedonia.


Typical transportation in the Roma ghetto (Shutka)


A shack in Shutka and a Roma family


Gypsy kids


No comment


Three day Gypsy wedding. The groom leads the bride with the belt to touch the four walls of the house. She has bread under her arms for luck and prosperity in marriage. They probably met few weeks before the wedding, which was arranged by the parents.


Gypsy women sing and burn their scarfs for happiness in marriage of the young, ahem, very young, couple
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Vlaad
Vlaad


Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
posted January 18, 2005 12:48 AM

A nice essay... as always.

Just a few quick notes:

Quote:
I think education is the key factor here, and governments and the majority don’t want Roma children to mix with “ordinary” children in schools and that’s why they segregate them in the ghetto schools. Needless to say, they’re also not interested to provide them with better conditions.

Being a teacher in a public school, I must disagree here, at least about my country. In Serbia all children have to go to elementary school (eight grades here, age 7-15).

In fact, it's usually their parents who keep them away from school. In their system of values, it seems that formal education comes last. Not only do they neglect their children, but also encourage them to leave school very early and start working. Some send their kids to school only when they are warned by the authorities that they are breaking the law and will not get their papers or the social help. Kids are often absent and not able to catch up.

Everything else you wrote is more or less true.

Quote:
For the New Years Eve Goran Bregovic had a concert in Skopje and in one interview to this question he answered: “I grew up speaking a language which doesn’t exist now (Serbo-Croatian).



Now, let's not take serious whatever that guy says...

Quote:
movie“Black pus$y (she-cat), white cat (male cat)”

Actually, it's "Black cat, white cat".

Quote:
And the most wonderful thing about Gypsies is they are the complete opposite of that. All they care about is music, dancing, weddings and good mood...

Speaking of stereotypes...!
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Svarog
Svarog


Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
posted January 18, 2005 03:50 AM

Thanks, Vlaad for the Balkan support. They need it.
Quote:
Being a teacher in a public school, I must disagree here, at least about my country. In Serbia all children have to go to elementary school (eight grades here, age 7-15).
In fact, it's usually their parents who keep them away from school.

Yes, I agree. It’s the same here. I did mention the effect traditional Gypsy values have, I believe, and that they form a cycle that cant be broken. In Serbia too, you’d agree with me, as in the rest of Europe, Gypsy kids visit substandard schools and are generally not mixed with the other children. Though not in Macedonia, in other countries the governments deliberately place Gypsies in special schools (chack the report), thus segregating them. Here, segregation in schools is result of the general segregation (i.e. normally you’d expect children from the ghetto to visit the ghetto schools, not travel miles to reach the better ones). In this way, a closed environment is formed where Roma children are isolated from outside positive influences
This is where government intervention should come in play imo. They should champion ethnically mixed schools in order to give positive role models for gypsy kids and help them overcome their parents infleunce, and at the same time develop a sense for ethnic toleration among the other kids. What we see in practice is opposte in fact, as they try not to mix the two groups together, thus encouriaging the formation of cultural ghettos paralleling the actual ones.
Quote:
Now, let's not take serious whatever that guy says...

Why not? I have a lot of respect for Goran (after all, what a beautiful name he has ). That statement should be taken as a protest for all the sh!t that happened between the peoples who once lived together.
Quote:
Actually, it's "Black cat, white cat".

Huh. Isnt it “Crna macka, bel macor”? It was the best translation I could think of, and not lose the sexual dichotomy between the cats.
Quote:
Speaking of stereotypes...!

Pure statistics, pal.
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Vlaad
Vlaad


Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
posted January 18, 2005 10:25 AM

Quote:
In Serbia too, you’d agree with me, as in the rest of Europe, Gypsy kids visit substandard schools and are generally not mixed with the other children.

Um... what do you mean by "substandard schools"? All elementary schools in Serbia are public, free and ethnically diverse. I'm teaching ten classes this year, and there are 1-3 Gypsies in each.
Quote:
Quote:
Actually, it's "Black cat, white cat".

Huh. Isnt it “Crna macka, bel macor”? It was the best translation I could think of, and not lose the sexual dichotomy between the cats.

Then it's "tomcat"? Anyway, I happen to know it was the official title they chose for the international audience.
Quote:
Quote:
Speaking of stereotypes...!

Pure statistics, pal.

Sure.
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Vlaad
Vlaad


Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
posted January 19, 2005 05:47 PM

Oh, I forgot something interesting.

The Gypsy kids usually use just the "restricted code" - they speak and understand the colloquial language only.

That means they have no problems communicating with their peers. However, they find the language of the books (not only vocabulary, but also the syntax) hard to follow. Even if their "receptive knowledge" is good, they are not able to "reproduce" the lessons they were told.

(Sometimes the children of immigrants face the same problem.)

Eventually, they are not able to catch up with others, get bad marks or don't pass their exams.
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Svarog
Svarog


Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
posted January 20, 2005 03:28 AM

I’ve been reading the Macedonian National Strategy for Roma, a rather well-written lengthy document with ambitious ideas, but unfortunately so little implementation. I took out the statistics to talk for you.

- The official unemployement rate among Roma (78%) is more than double the national level (38%). From these unemployed Roma, 33% have no educational qualification whatsoever, 60% have only elementary, and 7% high school degrees, and 0,1% of them have university degrees. With such educational structure, they are unlikely to find jobs on the labour market any time soon. The competitiveness of the market is the main reason that contributes for an increased marginalization of Roma, but also a lack of information among Roma how to use official channels for employment, as well as discrimination among some employers . Whats more frightening, unofficial NGO estimates claim an even greater rate of unemployed Roma – a fabulous 95%!

- In Southeastern Europe the percentage of enrollment in elementary schools is 20-30% lower among Roma children than among non-Roma. The percentage of those who quit elementary before finishing is more than twice higher among Roma than non-Roma.
In Macedonia, it’s considered that only 1 in 10 Roma children finishes elementary. 24% of the male Roma population older than 25 is illiterate, and half of the female Roma are illiterate. National illiteracy rate is officialy 3,6% for comparisson.
Roma who enroll in elementary, quit school in a geometrical progressive rate as they advance into the higher grades. Of those who finish it, only 20% continue their education in highschool. In 2002/2003 academical year, only 0,3% of the newly enrolled students were Roma (2,66% Roma on national level), but its still a highest number reached so far.
That’s how serious it is.

Quote:
Um... what do you mean by "substandard schools"? All elementary schools in Serbia are public, free and ethnically diverse. I'm teaching ten classes this year, and there are 1-3 Gypsies in each.

The reports I’ve been reading all suggest that Roma visit substandard schools, especially in those areas where they live ghettoized. Otherwise, the statistics wouldn’t have been so defeating. In other Eastern European countries, it’s a practice that perfectly normal Gypsy kids are put in schools for mentally disabled, just so that they acquire any kind of education. In these cases, you’re right, not substandard, but degraded standard schools would be more suitable.
I also stumbled upon some scarce statistics about Roma pupils in Serbia. 75,000 Gypsy kids of schoolage don’t go to school (roughly 10% of all Serbian kids visiting elementary). Most Gypsy kids don’t go at all or don’t finish elementary. Only one third of those who enrolled in elementary school finish it.
So, get ready to say goodbye earlier than its supposed to, to those 1-3 Gypsy kids in each class.
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Svarog
Svarog


Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
posted February 04, 2005 03:01 AM
Edited By: Svarog on 3 Feb 2005

Starting from yesterday, 2nd February 2005, and lasting until 2015, the decade of the Roma starts, during which time Roma standard is supposed to reach the level of other citizens.

For this purpose, on a donors conference in EU, entire 40 million dolars were gathered. lol
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Vlaad
Vlaad


Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
posted February 04, 2005 08:28 PM

LOL
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terje_the_ma...
terje_the_mad_wizard


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Disciple of Herodotus
posted February 07, 2005 09:09 PM

Could you enlighten us of why this is worthy of a lol?
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Svarog
Svarog


Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
posted February 08, 2005 04:36 AM

Cause with those money you cant even buy towels for Gypsy kids to clean cars wondows.
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terje_the_ma...
terje_the_mad_wizard


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Disciple of Herodotus
posted February 08, 2005 08:41 PM

Ah.

I thought it was something like that...

Thanks!
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.

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