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| Thread: TOH Maps |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · NEXT» |
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Kruel
Adventuring Hero
Gropabo
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posted August 09, 2001 06:18 PM |
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TOH Maps
Hi guys,
I am not a TOH member at this time, but i am one of the most active player in the biggest h3 french league.
This league is hosted by the best and biggest french website about heroes : www.archangelcastle.com, you can find all the league-related stuff here : http://www.archangelcastle.com/h3_ligue.html
The thing is, this league is MUCH smaller than yours, the number of active player goes from 50 to 100. I've been thinking some times of joining your tournament instead of ours because i'm living in the US (crap to find players being 6 hours earlier) and because it's probably much easier to find different players in yours, when we have to play lots of times against the same players.
But there is one thing in your league which in my opinion actually SUCKS, and is of the first importance for having fun playing, i mean the maps you're playing on.
They are completely unbalanced, and playing on these usually means for me playing a 80% random game, which is no fun really.
Explanations :
Your maps are not symetrical, which means only depending on the color you choose half of the way to victory or defeat is already done.
The creatures stacks guarding the mines are not set, so let's take an example, a "pack" of level 6 creatures. Who can say it's the same to fight 20 dread knights or naga queens and to fight 11 wyverns ? If this is a key-strategic point of the map, the guy who got the wyverns is gonna win because he'll get there faster, but that doesn't mean he's been playing better than his opponent.
Same for ressources : ressources are not set, which basically means unbalanced ressources on both sides, and finally one of the player gets an advantage from the map, so finally not necessarily the best player of the two, or at least the player who played this game the better way is gonna win the game.
It gets even worse when talking of artefacts. Artefacts not set on the map ??? How can this happen ? Both sea captain's hat and helm of heavy enlightenment are relics, but who can say they're equal, especially in a game without water ?
I saw on many of your maps completely random artefacts, which means one side can get a crappy 5% necromancy artefact, when the other is gonna get a tome of earth magic, with implosion, town portal and resurect inside ?
That kinda sucks, the game has no interest anymore in that case, as only random artefacts generation decides of who's winning the game.
I don't even imagine what's happening if the players are using SOD, and one can get some combination artefact launching slow curse misfortune etc. at the beginning of the fight when the other gets a centaur's axe.
It's completely uninteresting to play a 6 hours game and have it ruined by a tome of magic...
I don't even understand how so many players can enjoy doing that and have never been thinking of making things more fair.
I suggest that you have a look at the maps which are used in the french league.
You can get most of them from here : http://www.archangelcastle.com/ligue/cartes_ligue.zip
all grouped in one single zip. Some are erathia, some AB and some SOD maps.
They are basically all SMALL maps, because experience showed that even when playing 2 minutes turns the game could be from 4 to 10 hours on these even sometimes more.
All creatures, ressources and artefacts are set on these maps to the same on both sides. Artefacts cannot ask you for being wise or charismatic to take them. Diplomacy is REMOVED, as it is a major random factor in a game, a player having 30 mighty gorgons joining his troops didn't have to play well for it and is for sure gonna win the game, and we didn't want that only playing ryland or any other diplo heros could be the only reason for winning a game.
Spells like fly, dimension door or town portal have been removed.
Places like dragon utopia (huge random place), shipwreck survivor, warrior's tomb, basically all that can provide a player with relics have been removed from these maps.
Shrines of haste, slow and magic arrow spells have been added on all maps on both sides, to limit random from mage guild.
Multiple other small enhancements have been added i don't have in mind, but just download the maps and you'll see what "balanced" means.
Schackles of wars have been added on many maps, to avoid hit and run strategies, which i don't wanna know if they're good or not, but which creates too many issues (that's for sure, i've seen we are not the only one to have had this problem).
This also makes cheating more difficult, as map editing can be instantly seen as ressources and creatures amounts are always the same.
We're also trying to give most maps some strategic interest, i suggest if you download our maps you have a look for example to maps like "tunnel", "hydra", "livres magiques", or yet "keeper" or "passage oblige" and you'll understand how much a strategic dimension can be introduced even on a small map.
So now what's wrong with this system ?
First a huge mapmaking work is needed. each map asks for hours and hours of making, testing, changing etc. (we make them to the point that a mercury mine should not have some more than slightly stronger guardians than a sulfur one etc.). Our maps are almost all from some of our players, and then have been tested and modified by "official" mapmasters to respect all the league map rules. But well we achieved 38 or something maps with our number of players, with yours it should be EASY to get hundreds of them.
Another bad point is that maps are always the same. You know that on this point of the map you're gonna find 34 diamond golems guarding a sack of gold. I guess that's the price for having balanced fights, and that the only solution to this problem is making more and more maps to have players not bored. This can also mean some players may practice only one or two single maps to death, and be almost invincible on them, and play only them. Well this kind of players is easy to find after some time and others just have not to play against them, i guess also after playing 10 times the same map they'll get bored.
Last bad point i see is lots of features from the original game had to be removed. Yes, we're not playing with dragon utopia even if they're fun because, they're completely unbalanced in a multiplayer game and take off all a fight's interests. Yes we don't use lots of great artefacts, simply because they're too great to make a fight balanced (try to win against a dongeon warlock with implosion and resurect or against a crag hack with orb of inhibition). But well if you want to use them just play alone, fun in multiplayer is simply destroyed by an unbalanced map.
Finally i'd like to say i didn't make this post in a way like "your league sucks go away" (huh how could one say that it's great, so many players, and congratulations for the huge website), i'm more like trying to improve things by making you guys realise that you could quite easily have something even much more interesting here. Just try some of our maps and you'll see there's ne comparison in the fun you get and the tightness of fights.
Sorry for the long reading and thanks to those who actually read, hope to make things move.
Kruel
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Redstorm_Ent...
Hired Hero
Entertainer
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posted August 09, 2001 06:27 PM |
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Man this isnt chess just outplay your opponent who cares whats guarding the mines as long as there level 6 and dont join thats fine. I like the TOH maps most of Jbs are very good but if you wanna make fun of hourglass and battle for power thats ok cause those maps really do have problems.. and as for utopias they can be unfair but if you get them before your oppoent does who cares, and if you want a map thats even with no relics/utopias go for battle for honor or battle royale boomerang etc.
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Oldtimer
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Please leave a message after..
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posted August 09, 2001 06:50 PM |
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If you want to make the game even just give everyone the same castle, hero, and start them all at full capacity. Also only have one battlefeild and the game can be even and over quickly.
It seems that whenever someone looses a game they cry about how unfair a certain tactic was or how unbalanced the map was. Stop complaining and play the game as it was intended and be good sports about your losses. Sometimes you get shafted and may loose game or maybe the opponant was bold and took chances in the early game and benefited. The game is more fun when random factors can give someone the edge. Learn to outplay or overcome these advantages.
But most of all be gracious in your losses. Stop taking the fun out of the game.
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<PLEASE DO NOT WAKE THE OLD MAN!>
"Zzzz...Zzzz...Zzzz..."
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted August 09, 2001 10:55 PM |
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French maps suck. Players also.I played in most french tourney since they were up till they died, and most often very fast.ToH has all kind of maps, balanced, and unbalanced but giving the oportunity to choose more than one strategy.Obviously you downloaded one or two maps then you made this post. Look better if you have enough hard disk.
Salamandre
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ironmlh
Known Hero
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posted August 09, 2001 11:05 PM |
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MAPS
Maps are a personal preference only. Toh maps dont suck, you just dont like them, or at least the ones you looked at.
Every play has there favorite map or style of map and thats what they play.
TOH is great because it has a wide variety of maps including allowing players to play Random maps ( my personal Favorite BTW).
So please dont say TOH maps suck, you made quite broad stroke of the pen over what appears a very limited amount of research into your topic.
If you like symetrical maps that are absolutely identical then maybe that French tourney suites your style better.
I reccomend trying a few TOH maps, and not the most popular ones, you may find yourself having more fun than expected.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted August 10, 2001 01:03 AM |
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I am sorry beeing agressive last post  . Now time to speak honestly. I checked out that wonderfull maps they propose and here are the results:
Hydras map: small map, 19 ancients separe the opponents. Since i can complete whole side of my map in one week, I dont know what to do to beat them, unless clicking on end turn for 7 days and hoping I get alamar and mass slow.the lazy point is that red player has acess at tome of fire, and blue at tome of water(!) So there....what you said about no random relics for balance?:
Les livres magiques: small map, uninteresting in design, even monsters lev one on mines are set to savage, lol. Looking in mage guilds showed me that dim door, fly are present, as well armageddon.The two warriors tombs are in contradiction with what you said about no possible relics...
Tome of air behind 7th lev monsters for purple player, tome of earth for the other(!)
very funny how the newbie who made this map put near tome of air orb of firmament and near tome of earth orb of silt, imagining thay will have same effect.Its my preferated map, closed and with tome of air on one side, congratulation.
I coudn't find the other map you propose here, but I noticed also the site propose the maps of Slami/Nina, which are very artistic design maps, as "le dernier elementaliste", or "les travaux de hercule".
I don't see your point about ToH maps since the maps you propose here shows us which color will win because of relics settings.
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted August 10, 2001 01:42 AM |
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I don´t even touch a single ToH map anymore because I find them too symmetrical. They are well made though, I remember that on B4H for example, blue had an easier access to his mines in order to counterbalance red´s starting advantage to a certain extend.
Suggesting a small map where both players´s areas are completely mirrored simply proves lack of insight in the game. Red has the option to chain troops to blue´s castle on day 8, 15, 22 - symmetry isn´t balance.
The presence of much randomness usually enables the better player to get the larger piece of the cake. If there are only two mage guilds and the rest is dead symmetry, the player with the better spells wins.
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Kruel
Adventuring Hero
Gropabo
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posted August 10, 2001 03:45 AM |
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ok here we go
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who cares whats guarding the mines as long as there level 6 and dont join thats fine. and as for utopias they can be unfair but if you get them before your oppoent does who cares
ok i do care about fighting 11 wyverns rather than 20 naga queens, if you don't i'm happy for you.
About utopias ok let's say you get there first and what comes out is that sea hat, the other gets there 2 weeks later but gets earth book, you loose, and you played better... Really need to say more about relics ???
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If you want to make the game even just give everyone the same castle, hero, and start them all at full capacity. Also only have one battlefeild and the game can be even and over quickly.
ok thank you for that very productive and smart note.
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It seems that whenever someone looses a game they cry about how unfair a certain tactic was or how unbalanced the map was. Stop complaining and play the game as it was intended and be good sports about your losses. Learn to outplay or overcome these advantages.
But most of all be gracious in your losses. Stop taking the fun out of the game.
it's not a question of winning or loosing here, well not only, the main thing is i, and probably many others, don't like to spend 6 hours playing a game the better way i can, and see all my efforts ruined by some unbalance issue, with a 2 turns fight and no options ending it. I like when it's close, and when actual combat strategy makes a difference between the two players, then if i loose it's fine the other played better, but don't ask me to be happy if the chances are not odd even before the combat starts.
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French maps suck. Players also.
ok this is GREAT. When i read this i was kind of undecided between being pissed and laughing, i finally laughed because you (probably) don't deserve more. You are probably the kind of guy that thinks France is the country producing good wine, smelly cheese, and where you can find the Eiffel Tower and la joconde (oh, no it's a painting, a culture thing, that's probably out of your view), that german girls don't shave, english ones are snowes and spanish people ride monkeys on the road (ever heard of spain ?).
Only one advice when i see peolple saying this kind of things, just go out of your beloved american city one day, there's a world out there and it's great you know, i wasn't waiting for this kind of remarks from people having internet access, supposed to open your eyes on the world.
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I played in most french tourney since they were up till they died, and most often very fast.
mmm interesting, actually I DID, how come i never saw you there ?
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Obviously you downloaded one or two maps then you made this post. Look better if you have enough hard disk.
Well i downloaded all medium maps and a few others, and there's a tournament going on right now between the french and spanish players on both our maps and theirs (which are basically yours), so i had the occasion to play a few of them a little bit, this even was the original reason for this post. I have to admit that some of them like battle royale are almost balanced, but that's very far from being the case for all of them.
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MAPS
Maps are a personal preference only. Toh maps dont suck, you just dont like them
that's why i wrote, if you read me :
there is one thing in your league which IN MY OPINION actually SUCKS, the maps you're playing on.
I wouldn't dare to say things like "french players suck" for my side, that was an opinion and my goal was trying to see if some other people thought the same way and if it was possible to make things to have everyone happy. It looks like my english is really bad seeing how misunderstood i've been.
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Every play has there favorite map or style of map and thats what they play. TOH is great because it has a wide variety of maps including allowing players to play Random maps ( my personal Favorite BTW). If you like symetrical maps that are absolutely identical then maybe that French tourney suites your style better.
thanks for the advice, as i told it i'm not playing in TOH so you see i didn't it. But i would have liked to, and i'm pretty sure some players here would be happy at least to have the choice of what kind of map they're playing on. I know it's hard to change a system that works fine, but if it's for an improvement it's still valuable that people actually ask for it to change.
At least ironmlh your post was more constructive and respectful, thank you for that.
Great ! here comes back the salamandre !
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I am sorry beeing agressive last post.
fine. i'll let my comments cause i don't know (and don't wanna know) how sarcastic you are here, but it's still a pleasure when people making mistakes admit it.
about the following : you didn't download the good maps man. You took them from archangelmaps, which contains all the non-league maps, and pretty old versions of every of them. So ONCE AGAIN, the maps can be found here :
http://www.archangelcastle.com/ligue/cartes_ligue.zip
they're not accessible from the english part of the website (neither is the league), this is why i gave you the URLs...
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Hydras map: small map, 19 ancients separe the opponents. Since i can complete whole side of my map in one week, I dont know what to do to beat them, unless clicking on end turn for 7 days and hoping I get alamar and mass slow.the lazy point is that red player has acess at tome of fire, and blue at tome of water(!) So there....what you said about no random relics for balance?:
About this one, i'll just notice that even in the old version, if you had looked at it more than 3 seconds, you would have found a subterranean gate (WOW) with plenty of stuff to do not to have you bored waiting to fight those terrific behemots. The new version as been redesigned, books are the same, and is disponible both in erathia and AB versions (slightly different).
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Les livres magiques (...) I coudn't find the other map you propose here
i won't say anything about the rest, just download the good maps :-)
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but I noticed also the site propose the maps of Slami/Nina, which are very artistic design maps, as "le dernier elementaliste", or "les travaux de hercule".
yeah ! great ! something true, Slaim and Nina maps are great.
Try also if you like XLs Ad Hominem by Anemic Pikeman, the best solo map i ever played.
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Suggesting a small map where both players´s areas are completely mirrored simply proves lack of insight in the game. Red has the option to chain troops to blue´s castle on day 8, 15, 22 - symmetry isn´t balance.
that's why it's a common agreement between players not to fight for these special days...
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The presence of much randomness usually enables the better player to get the larger piece of the cake. If there are only two mage guilds and the rest is dead symmetry, the player with the better spells wins.
lol ! I'm a stronghold player (well say that's the town i prefer), and i'm actually 2d in the french league rankings, believe me this is FAR from being true.
Well what can i say else than i hoped from people playing a game which is supposed to use your brain more than your mouse some more constructive comments. I said it at the end of my post, i didn't come here to tell you your maps suck or whatever, i wasn't aggressive at all and i'm truly sorry if i sounded like it i didn't mean it, i was just thinking we could try to debate on the possibility to make things better here (because it's not perfect you knew that i hope), and i'm truly sad to see so defensive attitudes and so staticly thinking people.
Hopefully i'll get more in the following, cause reading the other threads it seems that some intelligent people are around here and that they could help building, if not a better world, at least a better TOH ;-).
Kruel
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jb239
Famous Hero
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posted August 10, 2001 04:23 AM |
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well...
Me being a map maker and making many of the maps I find your post rather amusing...
especially since if anything people say maps are too symmetrical, you say they hardly are..which actually is kind of a compliment 
but what i find is this. when 2 people get together to play a map they usually like a map balanced, but they also like to know that there can be some added luck mixed in to help, especially if their opponent is better. I do agree fightin 11 wyverns for 1 side and 20 dreads for another is hardly fair, but then again that would never happen, but there are slight times when a level 6 guard for 1 can be diamond golems and dread knights for the other, and thats when player skill comes in. But on some maps creatures are set even for both, but mostly if that spot is very key in the gameplay of the map.
and final comment as some pointed out...TOH has a big variety of maps to play, there a ton to choose from, and even a possibility to submit some you like, so it really isnt cool to characterize stuff like you did.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted August 10, 2001 04:28 AM |
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Quote: You are probably the kind of guy that thinks France is the country producing good wine, smelly cheese, and where you can find the Eiffel Tower and la joconde (oh, no it's a painting, a culture thing, that's probably out of your view), that german girls don't shave, english ones are *****es and spanish people ride monkeys on the road (ever heard of spain ?).
Only one advice when i see peolple saying this kind of things, just go out of your beloved american city one day, there's a world out there and it's great you know, i wasn't waiting for this kind of remarks from people having internet access, supposed to open your eyes on the world.
Kruel, I write you this from my lovely american town, which is Paris. Somewhere in Arizona....I am french. And yes, culture is out of my views, I like only cheese, wine and true Jocondes on my road.
If you come here to propose us a new kind of map, well, talk about slaim/Nina's maps, or Peloponese map by Teglatphalassar(which, btw, has link broken on archangels site) and not about those silly small maps that can be done in 15 min. Each map has to have a story also, something who gaves you some aestethical adrenaline bost. I found your maps guys boring with lack of imagination.
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I played in most french tourney since they were up till they died, and most often very fast.
mmm interesting, actually I DID, how come i never saw you there ? "
Well, if you don't remember me, ask Corwin, which is first now in your league. He will remember for sure, now, that he can, for once, to be first. 
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Redstorm_Ent...
Hired Hero
Entertainer
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posted August 10, 2001 04:35 AM |
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Right on JB, also to add Stop quoteing people ...waisting my time reading all these quotes.
(_8^(0)
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted August 10, 2001 04:48 AM |
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>> "lol ! I'm a stronghold player (well say that's the town i prefer), and i'm actually 2d in the french league rankings, believe me this is FAR from being true."
What kind of argument is that supposed to be? First of all, you are second in an environment where only 50-100 players take part and play among themselves, and you seriously think that makes you a good player?
And now without giving any reason, you say that the mage guild, which contains spells like Magic Mirror, Implosion, Slayer and Resurrection is not an unbalancing factor, while insisting that every single piece of the map must be symmetric? Sorry, but you don´t know what you´re talking about.
>> "that's why it's a common agreement between players not to fight for these special days..."
No comment.
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vesuvius
Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
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posted August 10, 2001 05:30 AM |
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anyways.....
Anyways, whatever the case, homm3 is about to close, homm4 is about to rise. Lets look to homm4 and the player maps that will come into the picture.
Homm4 TOH will address variety and quality of maps. Obviously when TOH homm4 starts, we will only have multiplayer maps from the CD. As soon as QUALITY maps are submitted, the TOH maps page will start to fill up.
The difference between homm4 TOH maps page and homm3 maps page, will be a quality rating voted by players associated to the maps submitted. Not all maps submitted will be accepted of course, and maps that have been on a page that may 'drop' below a certain quality level, will be removed.
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zsa
Famous Hero
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posted August 10, 2001 06:24 AM |
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RedStorm , I must gently inform u that you can get relics on Boomerang; very recently I was playing someone and he got Tome of Earth from a shipwreck Survivor ( I never got relics from SR Survivors but if he did that means that it is possible).
Also I must say that ToH maps are good maps to play on but ... I do not like to play a map too many times - it takes out all the fun (at least in my opinion). This is why i prefer random maps.
So I think I will dislike those french maps more because they're the same every time u play. And furthermore I do not like the restrictions that the mapmakers implemented - no diplomacy , no DD no fly, no Dragon U etc. - it limits the game and the fun.
So what if the other guy gets a little luckyer than you and wins? Luck is part of HOMM3. I mean I don't know why I hear all the time , the map was unfair or he cheated - he got the orb of inhibition from a tomb or other comments like that.
On this matter I totally agree with Oldtimer.
Changing the subject ,you shouldn't be so hard on Kruel , those who were at least (especially Lews Therin Kinslayer and Salamandre). I belive that he wasn't trying to get in a fight with the ToH members ,so be a little more understanding. So what if he said that toh maps suck ? I mean who cares that he said that?
lol , hope you won't jump on me too!
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"You sound like zsa who only plays the game on forums" - Russ
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Defreni
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted August 10, 2001 05:35 PM |
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Well actually I think Sal, just remembered the first discussions on this board. They where all about maps. Open vs closed, Random vs non-random etc. And luck vs non-luck.
Im pretty sure Kruel didnt see the rules of TOH since season 1. NO small maps. The reason these maps where banned, was because of newbie-killers who would thrash the living daylight out of some poor chumb in day 3 or 4, simply by chaining troops.
And as for mirror maps, I find Kruel style pretty limiting, no scout wars at all.
And just one more little comment. Im thinking Sal also cleared out the subterran in week 1
Defreni
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted August 10, 2001 06:31 PM |
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That remember me an allied game I started 3 days ago with players from Heroes Kingdom. Thay wanted to pick town but not agree on which races should take. I insisted for random, and after 10 min of blabla we went random. Three of us got stronghold, the 4th rampart. The two players with stronghold started crying that the one with rampart will win, not fair, it sucks, caramba, lolamba, paratata, paratitou.And you know what? On my turn I was alone in the game, all of them quited....
It seems HK doesn't have same opinions about stronghold as in french league
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Defreni
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted August 10, 2001 11:09 PM |
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LOL, that reminds me of myself, when I was a newbie.
I was convinced Stronghold and Fortress was far weaker than the other towns, damn I must have been stupid.
Hmmmmmmmmmm........
Guess I still am
Defreni
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MidnightWraith
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 11, 2001 12:26 AM |
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star ratings
i hope this doesnt sound too complicated but u could have some subjective star ratings 1-5 on some aspects of maps. Dunno how this would be implemented but it might allow a way to cut through the myriad of maps to find one that might suit ur style of play. Having said that, i'm a random map player but it might help u other players he he.
eg.
luck **
closed ***
popularity ****
prolly wanna limit to 4 or 5 categories. Star ratings r subjective, just there to give an impression, not an exact measure. Hey at least a rating system can be a cause for a whole raft of new arguements
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vesuvius
Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
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posted August 11, 2001 03:44 AM |
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map ratings
i was thinking of one rating overall, say from 1-5 or 1-10. Luck is subjective, and at an early point of us gaming in homm4, the idea of getting lucky will be different than later on. I mean, for example solmyr was considered a best hero or 'lucky' to have, or tower was the best town early in homm3. Now a gunnar or logistics hero, and a dungeon or castle is considered lucky to have etc...
Its also more work to have more ratings......
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted August 11, 2001 04:34 AM |
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I have been in TOH for 3 seasons now. And I have my favorite maps that I like to play over and over and over, trying to find a good pattern. Only reason I did that was I found out very early that most of the high ranked players would only play maps that they had all mapped and planned out. They knew they were going to be at this spot by day 3 the chain there troops to this spot by day 5 then chain them back and take the Utopia week3 Day1 then move in for the kill on week3 Day7. Every game they played they knew where they were gonna be. So if you wanted to compete or atleast try to keep up you had to also learn this.
I am hoping that that wont be the case in HOMM4. I would even suggest that maps have a limited life. Forexample any map on the maps list can only be there for 2 months. Then it must be removed and some new ones created or added. This way we dont have another DESERTWAR occurance. I think some players actually played 100 games in TOH only on DesertWar and still have never played anyother map LOL
I have been playing alot more randoms lately, even though randoms are not the most balanced they are new and different and both players play them blind each time with no set patterns. Maybe I am just ready tired of Heroes3 and ready for change but playing the same maps with the same moves is getting old. With a few agreed guidlines random maps are quite fun.
I just hope that Season 4 in TOH with HOMM4 that the same old rut of playing 1 map to death and learning all the steps and moves for one map is not done.
BTW any idea if Heroes 4 will have a random map generator?
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