Heroes of Might and Magic Community
visiting hero! Register | Today's Posts | Games | Search! | FAQ/Rules | AvatarList | MemberList | Profile


Age of Heroes Headlines:  
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
6 Aug 2016: Troubled Heroes VII Expansion Release - read more
26 Apr 2016: Heroes VII XPack - Trial by Fire - Coming out in June! - read more
17 Apr 2016: Global Alternative Creatures MOD for H7 after 1.8 Patch! - read more
7 Mar 2016: Romero launches a Piano Sonata Album Kickstarter! - read more
19 Feb 2016: Heroes 5.5 RC6, Heroes VII patch 1.7 are out! - read more
13 Jan 2016: Horn of the Abyss 1.4 Available for Download! - read more
17 Dec 2015: Heroes 5.5 update, 1.6 out for H7 - read more
23 Nov 2015: H7 1.4 & 1.5 patches Released - read more
31 Oct 2015: First H7 patches are out, End of DoC development - read more
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
[X] Remove Ads
LOGIN:     Username:     Password:         [ Register ]
HOMM1: info forum | HOMM2: info forum | HOMM3: info mods forum | HOMM4: info CTG forum | HOMM5: info mods forum | MMH6: wiki forum | MMH7: wiki forum
Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: European Appeasement?
Thread: European Appeasement?
Khayman
Khayman


Promising
Famous Hero
Underachiever
posted February 23, 2005 10:57 PM
Edited By: Khayman on 23 Feb 2005

European Appeasement?

I wanted to share with all of you (especially our European members) this article that I received.  I have never heard of the German author, nor do I know the sentiments of the European people of which this article speaks.  Any comments, criticisms, or insights?


Matthias Dapfner, Chief Executive of the huge German publisher Axel Springer AG, has written a blistering attack in  DIE WELT, Germany's largest daily newspaper, against the timid reaction of Europe in the face of the Islamic threat.


EUROPE - THY NAME IS COWARDICE
(Commentary by Mathias Dapfner CEO, Axel Springer, AG)

A few days ago Henry Broder wrote in Welt am Sonntag, "Europe - your family name is appeasement." It's a phrase you can't get out of your head because it's so terribly true.

Appeasement cost millions of Jews and non-Jews their lives as England and France, allies at the time, negotiated and hesitated too long before they noticed that Hitler had to be fought, not bound to toothless agreements.

Appeasement legitimized and stabilized Communism in the Soviet Union, then East Germany, then all the rest of Eastern Europe where for decades, inhuman, suppressive, murderous governments were glorified as the ideologically correct alternative to all other possibilities.

Appeasement crippled Europe when genocide ran rampant in Kosovo, and even though we had absolute proof of ongoing mass-murder, we Europeans debated and debated and debated, and were still debating when finally the Americans had to come from halfway around the world, into Europe yet again, and do our work for us.

Rather than protecting democracy in the Middle East, European appeasement, camouflaged behind the fuzzy word "equidistance," now countenances suicide bombings in Israel by fundamentalist Palestinians.

Appeasement generates a mentality that allows Europe to ignore nearly 500,000 victims of Saddam's  torture and murder machinery and, motivated by the self-righteousness of the peace-movement, has the gall to issue bad grades to George Bush... even as it is uncovered that the loudest critics of the American action in Iraq made illicit billions, no, TENS of billions, in the corrupt U. N. Oil-for-Food program.

And now we are faced with a particularly grotesque form of appeasement...How is Germany reacting to the escalating violence by Islamic fundamentalists in Holland and elsewhere?  By suggesting that we really should have a "Muslim Holiday" in  Germany.

I wish I were joking, but I am not. A substantial fraction of our (German) Government, and if the polls are to be believed, the  German people, actually believe that creating an Official State "Muslim  Holiday" will somehow spare us from the wrath of the fanatical Islamists.

One cannot help but recall Britain's Neville Chamberlain waving the laughable treaty signed by Adolf Hitler, and declaring European "Peace in our time".

What else has to happen before the European public and its political leadership get it? There is a sort of crusade underway, an especially perfidious crusade consisting of systematic attacks by fanatic Muslims, focused on civilians, directed  against our free, open Western societies, and intent upon Western  
Civilization's utter destruction.

It is a conflict that will most likely last longer than any of the great military conflicts of the last  century - a conflict conducted by an enemy that cannot be tamed by "tolerance" and "accommodation" but is actually spurred on by such gestures, which have proven to be, and will always be taken by the Islamists for signs of weakness.

Only two recent American Presidents had the courage needed for anti-appeasement: Reagan and Bush.
His American critics may quibble over the details, but we Europeans know the truth. We saw it first hand: Ronald Reagan ended the Cold War, freeing half of the German people from nearly 50 years of terror and virtual slavery. And Bush, supported only by the Social Democrat Blair, acting on moral conviction, recognized the danger in the Islamic War against democracy. His place in history will have to be evaluated after a number of years have passed.

In the meantime, Europe sits back with charismatic self-confidence in the multicultural corner, instead of defending liberal society's values and being an attractive center of power on the same playing field as the true great powers, America and China.

On the contrary - we Europeans present ourselves, in contrast to those "arrogant Americans", as the World Champions of "tolerance", which even (Germany's  Interior Minister) Otto Schily justifiably criticizes. Why? Because we're  so moral? I fear it's more because we're so materialistic, so devoid of a moral compass.

For his policies, Bush risks the fall of the dollar, huge amounts of additional national debt, and a massive and persistent burden on the American economy - because unlike almost all of Europe, Bush realizes what is at stake - literally everything.

While we criticize the "capitalistic robber barons" of America because they seem too sure of their priorities, we timidly defend our Social Welfare systems. Stay out of it! It could get expensive! We'd rather discuss reducing our 35-hour work week or our dental coverage, or our 4 weeks of paid vacation...Or listen to TV pastors preach about the need to "reach out to terrorists. To understand and forgive".

These days, Europe reminds me of an old woman who, with shaking hands, frantically hides her last pieces of jewelry when she notices a robber breaking into a neighbor's house.

Appeasement?  Europe, thy name is Cowardice.

END
____________
"You must gather your party before venturing forth."

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Wolfman
Wolfman


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
posted February 23, 2005 11:08 PM

This guy is right on the money.  My new favorite European.
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
privatehudson
privatehudson


Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
posted February 23, 2005 11:16 PM
Edited By: privatehudson on 23 Feb 2005

I think the author is sorely in need of a history lesson frankly. That and a good dose of common sense that might accompany the realisation that he's a hypocrite who talks out of his backside.

Example, why does the author not also accuse America of the same things? Is he not aware that America also sat on the sidelines watching Hitler's rise to power and doing very little also? Where is the criticism of America for not attacking Soviet Russia more?

Of course America had it's reasons whereas Europe were just cowards...

*rolls eyes*

I don't think I'll waste my time answering the rest of his drivel.

Edit: I also think Svarog may have something to say about america "doing europe's job for them" in Kossovo...
____________
We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Svarog
Svarog


Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
posted February 23, 2005 11:35 PM



In his face, PH!

Ditto what u said. I can imagine this article will flood American sites like a plague. Just sad that they dont spread the millions of other articles written by respected Europeans. Only shows how bad Americans need support when all of the world is against their actions, so they resort to brainjerks of some poor "intellectual".
____________
The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
terje_the_ma...
terje_the_mad_wizard


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
posted February 23, 2005 11:36 PM

Hmm, after spending about half an hour writing some stuff about this, I see that PH already posted something I can agree to. But I will post my things anyway, since I pick at some other points than he does...

I don’t really have any knowledge on the specific issue, but I still picked out some quotes that should mark where this guy stands:
Quote:
Appeasement legitimized and stabilized Communism in the Soviet Union, then East Germany, then all the rest of Eastern Europe where for decades, inhuman, suppressive, murderous governments were glorified as the ideologically correct alternative to all other possibilities.

“Ideologically correct” sounds very much like “political correct”, this favourite weapon of the right, where they ridicule people for their opinions.

Here, however, it seems that although he has a point, he make a horrible generalization, plus an exaggeration. Yes, there have been (and still is) Stalinists in Europe. But not many. Yes, “we” did not do much to fight Stalinism in Russia (but more than what is done by any nations to fight left fascist Maoism in China). But seriously, what would the guy have the European society of the Cold War do? Attack the Soviet Union? The mere thought makes me laugh.
Quote:
And now we are faced with a particularly grotesque form of appeasement...How is Germany reacting to the escalating violence by Islamic fundamentalists in Holland and elsewhere? By suggesting that we really should have a "Muslim Holiday" in Germany.

I wish I were joking, but I am not. A substantial fraction of our (German) Government, and if the polls are to be believed, the German people, actually believe that creating an Official State "Muslim Holiday" will somehow spare us from the wrath of the fanatical Islamists.

Ok, this one clearly shows what his political viewpoints are. According to the CIA World Factbook, 2,4% of Germany’s population of 82,424,609 (July 2004 est.) are Turks. It would be fair to guess that most of these Turks are Muslims. So why can’t they have their own holiday, when the Christians have so many? Sure, Germany has a majority of Christians, but most German citizens are probably pretty secular, at least if the situation is anything like it is here in Norway.

In addition, this would cost the factory owners of Germany money, since they’d have to give their workers one more day off every year.
Quote:
Only two recent American Presidents had the courage needed for anti-appeasement: Reagan and Bush.

Again: This shows where he stands. Reagan may have had a part in killing off the Soviet Union, but even the CIA agrees that the invasion of Iraq has increased recruitment to terrorist organizations.
Quote:
While we criticize the "capitalistic robber barons" of America because they seem too sure of their priorities, we timidly defend our Social Welfare systems. Stay out of it! It could get expensive! We'd rather discuss reducing our 35-hour work week or our dental coverage, or our 4 weeks of paid vacation...Or listen to TV pastors preach about the need to "reach out to terrorists. To understand and forgive".

Hehe, yet another time! This guy is unstoppable!
Here he begins attacking the labour rights that have been fought for by European workers at the cost of their blood and sweat. To clarify: In Germany, and other European countries as well, I think, they’re discussing to ease the laws that regulate how many hours of overtime and regular work the employers have the right to demand of their employees. He attempts to show how petty we European leftists are, where we sit, threatened by murderous Islamists from all sides, and we care more about protecting our labour rights than our civilization? Shame on us!

Conclusion: This guy has been reading way too much Huntington… Or even Fallaci.
I wouldn’t take the guy very seriously.

I could probably have posted some more, touching more on this guy’s suspected xenophobia, but I had hoped that I could manage to get to bed at a reasonable hour tonight. Maybe tomorrow, though…
____________
"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
Khayman
Khayman


Promising
Famous Hero
Underachiever
posted February 23, 2005 11:39 PM

Who is that handsome man with the nice hair and cool tie?  
____________
"You must gather your party before venturing forth."

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Svarog
Svarog


Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
posted February 23, 2005 11:45 PM

Quote:
Edit: I also think Svarog may have something to say about america "doing europe's job for them" in Kossovo...


I have a lot to say about every aspect of the article, but aint worth the time. In short, we now have a wasted Serbia and wasted Kosovo, with possible future implications for the entire Balkan. If anyone\s interested, feel happy to ask.
____________
The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
bort
bort


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
posted February 23, 2005 11:49 PM

Right on!

The US has never, ever turned a blind eye or worse yet, actively supported tyrannical regimes.  Why, we stand firm against tyranny, arm in arm with such freedom loving governments as those of Saudi Arabia and Pinochet!  Appeasement?  We got none o' that here.

While bringing up Reagan and Bush (the sequel) together, since Reagan "stopped" Communism by training a certain group that was once based Afghanistan, should Bush (the sequel) "stop" Islamic fundamentalist based terrorism by training some Commie Guerilla fighters in, say, Saudi Arabia and Iran?

(ps since I know those who consistently misinterpret posts and fly off the handle will try to put words in my post that aren't there, I don't support Western Europe, the former Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, or the widespread terrorist movement epitomized by Al Qaeda or really anybody else.  Basically, I think everybody is an idiot except me.  And even I'm pretty stupid from time to time.)
____________
Drive by posting.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
privatehudson
privatehudson


Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
posted February 23, 2005 11:49 PM
Edited By: privatehudson on 23 Feb 2005

Quote:
Ditto what u said. I can imagine this article will flood American sites like a plague


Oh believe me it already has. One I viewed whilst typing my reply was accompanied by remarks like:

"You'd be speaking German if it wasn't for us, we pulled your Ass out of the fire 4 times (four? Two world wars and what else? Can this guy count?) and now you abbandon us, well we won't help you again!"

It's people like this that need a new Brain...

Quote:
In short, we now have a wasted Serbia and wasted Kosovo, with possible future implications for the entire Balkan.


That reminds me I was reading an article the other day about how a section the EU screwed over the Serbians on some reconstruction deals.


____________
We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
bort
bort


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
posted February 23, 2005 11:55 PM

Quote:

"You'd be speaking German if it wasn't for us, we pulled your Ass out of the fire 4 times (four? Two world wars and what else? Can this guy count?) and now you abbandon us, well we won't help you again!"



Well, #3 was the Euro-American camping trip of 1974.  Just because you were too trashed to remember falling into the campfire trying to retrieve one of your s'mores doesn't mean it doesn't count.

#4 is a bit of an exageration, Europe almost sat on a hotplate, but the US stopped it.

Freakin' ungrateful Eurotrash.

(I'm personally glad we're speaking a Germanic derived language and not German,though).
____________
Drive by posting.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
privatehudson
privatehudson


Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
posted February 24, 2005 12:00 AM

It's a good job I appreciate your humour
____________
We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
defreni
defreni


Promising
Famous Hero
posted February 24, 2005 09:11 AM

Quote:
Quote:
Edit: I also think Svarog may have something to say about america "doing europe's job for them" in Kossovo...


I have a lot to say about every aspect of the article, but aint worth the time. In short, we now have a wasted Serbia and wasted Kosovo, with possible future implications for the entire Balkan. If anyone\s interested, feel happy to ask.


Well Svarog, think about Bosnia. Actually Im pretty happy Clinton stepped in in Kosovo, to bad he didnt do the same before Srebrenica.
If any country had a rough deal splitting off from Yugoslavia, its gotta be Bosnia.
And the whole world watched stunned, and picked their noses, under the pretext that it was a civil war, and that it was a 1000 year ethnic hatred that spurred that civil war. Not our problem, eventhough it specifically says in the UN treaty that members of the UN are obliged to stop genocide, by military force even.


Concerning the appeasement article. Well its very difficult to take something so sorely uninformed rubbish seriously.

Regards

Defreni

____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Svarog
Svarog


Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
posted February 24, 2005 10:50 AM

Quote:
(but more than what is done by any nations to fight left fascist Maoism in China).


Thats extremely serious accusation, terje. Better be careful in the future when qualifying regimes cause the words actually have some meaning, dont abuse them for intensity of message. Of course, i could argue both "fascist" and "fight", but it'd better be done in Consis' China thread. I dont have any time now to write more on the topic. In several days maybe.
Quote:
Well Svarog, think about Bosnia. Actually Im pretty happy Clinton stepped in in Kosovo, to bad he didnt do the same before Srebrenica.

Its very misleading when people apply the same scheme of "an oppressed minority fighting for freedom of their land by a fascist genocidal regime" on every case there is (or every case that the medias want to present as such). No one liked Milosevic at all really, but this dislikeness of his nationalist-socialism by the West, was used by crminial nationalist structures in Kosovar society as a bait to get the West commit an aggression over a sovereign nation (without UN consent), and ensure a destabilization of Kosovo suitable for their unlawful activities and sovereign rule of crime, even under the patronship of the international community. Thats whats happening currently in Kosovo. Byproducts of the intervention were destabilization of the broader Balkan region (including Macedonia, which makes me extra pissed off), an actual increase of the support for Milosevic at home, failiure to prevent ethnic discrmination (only this time the other way round; hundreds of churches burned in Kosovo after the intervention), failiure to prevent genocide (since there never was any), legal violations of international law etc.
Quote:

If any country had a rough deal splitting off from Yugoslavia, its gotta be Bosnia.
And the whole world watched stunned, and picked their noses, under the pretext that it was a civil war, and that it was a 1000 year ethnic hatred that spurred that civil war. Not our problem, eventhough it specifically says in the UN treaty that members of the UN are obliged to stop genocide, by military force even.

Now, I agree that genocide should be prevented at all costs, and its true that they failed to do that in Bosnia. But dont forget that some European nations actually spurred awakening of nationalism in Yugoslavian nations by choosing their pet-countries (particularly Germany in relation to Croatia), which caused them to be completely without any cohesion in both stances and actions, and encouraged nationalism.
There're some bolder theories that they consciously stimulated nationalism as a mean to break the last socialist regime in Europe.
Beside that, its a common misconception Westerners have that the conflict on the Balkan is due to 1000 year hatred, because we've hardly been to war with one another before the end of XIX century. Its Europeans that taught us to hate each other (XIX - in order to use the Balkans as a playground for their imperialistic ambitions), its now again the Europeans that have problem "unteaching" us the same.
____________
The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
defreni
defreni


Promising
Famous Hero
posted February 24, 2005 04:36 PM

Well I concur wholeheartedly that ethnic hatred in the Balkans is a relative new invention. And not surprisingly I agree with you Svarog, that it stems from the later part of the 19. century, where great powers thought that it would be better to have their petty wars in Balkan than at home.

As to Kosovo, well it is very difficult to not see the comparison with Bosnia in what went on. But you cant run from the fact that since 1987 when Milosevic took power, their had been extreme discrimination against Kosovo-albanians in Kosovo. And in 1998 Clinton had learned his lesson, that there was a good chance of another example of ethnic cleansing if he didnt step in.
This is the optics that it looks like from a western point of view. You say that it was a different situation in Kosovo than in Bosnia, but facts is that a minority of Serbs deliberatly sought to goat the rural population into running for the safe areas in the cities. Much the same tactic that was used in Bosnia.
You say that it destabilizied the whole area, when Nato decided to bomb Serbia in 1998. I say it should have happened 6 years prior, and to hell with destabilization.
Just make sure that you throw money at the problem afterwards

Btw. Germanys recognition of Croatia as an independent state, was actually given at the same time as they recognised Slovenia, and this move forced EC to recognise  Bosnia aswell. This move could have prevented the genocide in Bosnia, if we had been up to our responsibility. Sadly we werent
Concerning the reason why it was so important to recognise the different paerts of Yugoslavia as independent states, I call upon Milosevic`s action from 1987-91 as my evidence, that this had nothing to do with the West trying to topple the last socialist  regime in Europe. Milosevic had allready done that.

Regards

Defreni

PS. A very interesting and somewhat different analysis of these incidents can be found in Bobbit`s "The shield of Achille" in the chapter titled "Kitty Genovese and the war in Bosnia".
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
privatehudson
privatehudson


Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
posted February 24, 2005 05:58 PM

*wonders why Wolf isn't defending the Guy*
____________
We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Khayman
Khayman


Promising
Famous Hero
Underachiever
posted February 24, 2005 06:04 PM

Sincere Thanks

I just wanted to say "thank you" to all you HC members who continually educate and enlighten me in regards to world history, especially Eastern European situations of which I am not very knowlegeable.  I love reading your insights and perspectives, and it truly helps to make me (and hopefully others) more aware of their ignorance when it comes to world affairs.

Now seriously, who was that handsome man with the nice hair and cool tie?  
____________
"You must gather your party before venturing forth."

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Svarog
Svarog


Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
posted February 25, 2005 09:11 PM
Edited By: Svarog on 25 Feb 2005

Quote:
As to Kosovo, well it is very difficult to not see the comparison with Bosnia in what went on.

Thats the instinctive outlook alright, but its more difficult to see past the set-up story Western politicians sold.
Quote:
But you cant run from the fact that since 1987 when Milosevic took power, their had been extreme discrimination against Kosovo-albanians in Kosovo. And in 1998 Clinton had learned his lesson, that there was a good chance of another example of ethnic cleansing if he didnt step in.

There was NOT extreme discrimination against Kosovo-Albanians. OK, i give you that there was discrimination, but you really have no idea just how much the whole scenario was fabricated. Isnt there discrimination against minority groups in all (most) countries? Just tell me in what areas were KOsovars discriminated. You say that the Serbs "goated the rural population" in the cities ?! I dont get the phrase much, but I dont imagine you meant like they forced anyone to move anywhere, cause it's simply not correct. There was a general tendency to favour (not forcably) urban growth at the expense of rural areas during the Socialism in all of Yugoslavia, but to connect it to ethnic discrimination is childish propaganda.
Again i ask you, name all areas where Kosovars were systematically (not single incidents) discriminated, and we'll see if thats a reason enough for aggression (compared to state of human rights in other US-friendly countries).
Kosovars were least educated, nationalist extremism was high (national solidarity is on the rank of tribal; blood revenge is still common among Albanians; they never disagree about matter of "national" interest, simply there\s no debate on such issues), there exists discrimination within the group against women, other sensitive minority groups... ALbanian nationalist tissue is an internally closed system, which has endured through years of outside influences, and unfortunately still retained the XIX century ideas of ethnic states. Its only recently that the Albanian cultural society undergoes an important transformation, but lots of backward elements have gained power (thanx to the western "intervention") and resist to hte democratic changes. I can give so many examples because I live in my country and I feel it everyday. Thats unfortunately a handicap for your intellectual prowess.
To get back on topic, Milosevic was a chauvinistic pig, but he wasnt a dictator or Albanian-slaughterer by far.

The war in Bosnia was a completely different story. There was an open aggression by the Serbian army against an authonomous country for the sake of joining ethnically Serbian areas of Bosnia to the "mother land". That is NOT the same. In fact, what the Albanians want(ed) was exactly what Milosevic did in Bosnia. And also, there wasnt discrimination in Bosnia of any kind (unlike in Kosovo) before the war.

As to the bombing, problem with it was it created only harm, didnt solve anything. If you think it did, tell me what. I'm writing this from Serbia right now and just yesterday I had a conversation with a friend of mine about that period. He was a kid then and he told me how they had to run every day in bunkers to hide, he told me about the whole situation, how they lived through the war, and what effects it brought to all the innocent people we usually forget about when we talk about wars. Sad.
Quote:
Concerning the reason why it was so important to recognise the different paerts of Yugoslavia as independent states, I call upon Milosevic`s action from 1987-91 as my evidence, that this had nothing to do with the West trying to topple the last socialist regime in Europe.

I didnt say I believe the theories, i just dont rule them out. And could you just tell me what action were so detrimental for the stability and peace in Yugoslavia that were necessary to encourage nationalist independence by some states.

ps: have no time to check. will come back laters.


____________
The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
Consis
Consis


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
posted February 27, 2005 04:33 AM
Edited By: Consis on 26 Feb 2005

Hmm,

I get the feeling that Svarog is anything but mainstream Macedonian politics and world views. I want to side with Defreni's argument but I would much rather hear from someone who is more in line with the common thinking of current affairs in Macedonia.

In any country, there are people who are part of the majority and people who aren't. I get the feeling that Svarog's strong opinions toward socialism clouds his view of mainstream Macedonian politics. This is not to say there isn't a strong socialist following within that country. According to every text, newspaper, and weblink I've visited, each one agrees that there is a good strong support base for socialist parties. But also each one is having a difficult time seperating their views from communistic-socialism. This seems to result in the loss of support for many socialist parties considering the country's recent history as "Yugoslavia". I don't blame the Macedonian people for wanting to distance themselves from communist shade of socialism. The world at large has been jaded on the word. Communism wasn't such a bad word until Stalin.
____________
Roses Are RedAnd So Am I

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
Svarog
Svarog


Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
posted March 01, 2005 01:15 AM

Quote:
I get the feeling that Svarog is anything but mainstream Macedonian politics and world views.

You’re both right and wrong. Its usually dependant of what you consider to be mainstream. Presently there’s no one openly advocating return of socialism in Macedonia. Heck, even I wouldn’t currently, knowing the consequences it could bring to a small country in a dogmatically liberal international community. It is not to say that there is no leftist wing on the Macedonian political chart that goes well with my views. On the contrary, it’s surprising the fact that the top of the intellectual elite is classically leftist (social-democratic). My opinion is that this is actually a reaction to the right-wing momentum of the government “reform” policies this past decade (implemented by both left and right parties), which has left us with disastrous economic consequences. In this sense, yes, I’m in minority, when it comes to economic political governing. Thus, the axis of division between parties centers on ethnocentric/multicultural ideology mostly. I don’t want to bother you with Macedonian politics since you’re far from familiar with it (or anyone on HC for that matter) and its not likely that it would be of any use to you. It’s however an intersting model; and i’ve heard it from many foreigners who visit – if you want to learn how cruel politics in the real world functions, here’s the right place for it.
In any case, it sounds a bit offensive to assume that my ideological orientation distances me from the “objectivity of the mainstream”. If you think “mainstream” is how the majority of people feel about everything, then there’s nothing further from it than objectivity. The bulk of Macedonians are immensly short-sighted, uneducated, manipulated, naïve people. Just like the mainstream everywhere, only add very ethnocentric on top. If by mainstream, you refer to a viable political option, then again, we’re talking about basically two criminalized, disideologicalized, corrupted parties, which is the reason why this country is where it is. I prefer to side with the intellectual leftist elite as I said, but they are far from what is considered the mainstream today, both in terms of theoretical and practical following. Still, I am able to choose between two “opposing” sides when it comes to elections and I bring that choice mainly based on how the parties approach to nationalism.
Concerning the problem with Kosovo, 99% of Macedonians wouldn’t agree with Defreni’s opinion, and would be a lot more critical to the NATO intervention (and with a good reason), just in case you think my perspective is too extreme for the Western taste.

Ps: I’m impressed by your effort to research something about Macedonian politics. A good observation, I must say. Just need to add that there are no socialist parties in Macedonia currently, only quasi-socialist ones. The Socialist-democratic Alliance has implemented nasty liberal “reforms” (about to create a third private monopoly (Electroenergetical system), which will largely increase costs of living), and the other one, the Socialist party, is led by the most disguisting populist capitalist pig in the country.

PPS: The handsome man that Khayman expressed unhidden sympathies towards is the author of the above posted article.
____________
The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
Jump To: « Prev Thread . . . Next Thread »
Post New Poll    Post New Topic    Post New Reply

Page compiled in 0.0944 seconds