|
| Thread: Greece - Macedonia - F.Y.R.O.M. |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · NEXT» |
|
Silverblade
Known Hero
Notorious Homo Erectus
|
posted April 14, 2005 01:03 PM |
|
|
Greece - Macedonia - F.Y.R.O.M.
This subject was brought up by Lith-Maethor opposing to Svarog in Attack Iraq.
Svarog
So I should be happy then since at least my government wont consider me a mindless drone. They openly admit that the reason cos we supported Iraq intervention was because we need the support from US, and without sucking up to the big powers we are next to meaningless on the global political chessboard. Which is true really.
Hadnt we supported the intervention, the US might not have recognized Macedonia under its constitutional name, cos it was one major step in the serie of pro-American moves (including the exemption of US nationals from ICC jurisdiction). Looks like a worthy trade in the world of cruel pragmatical reality.
Privatehudson
I'm reminded of the phrase "The coallition of the coerced and bribed". At least the Macedonians admit to their motives, one imagines many of the allies were supporting the USA in Iraq under similar reasoning.
Lith-Maethor
going offtopic here...
but i do have a request... can you please stop using the term "Macedonia(n)" till the whole issue is solved? cause i live for the last seven years in the capitol of Macedonia and it sure as hell is not the country Svarog is in...
Tigris
AFAIK ur greek, right lith?
This is indeed a delicate issue.Having people with the same ethnical background spread around in 3 different states isn't a problem with a easy way out.
The Balcans have always been the gunpowder can of the Europe.Seems like things won't change soon in that matter.
Svarog
PH, and others; for historical reference for the problem our Greek friends seem to be having with us, Macedonians, refer to the article I wrote (which can be found in the Educational articles thread). Also, Lith you are welcomed there to discuss anything historic any time.
As for using or not the name; it's every person's right to choose how to speak. However, it's also every person's right to choose how they'll call themselves. This sounds exactly like:
"Who are you?"
"I am Lith."
"No, you are not Lith. My aunt's also called Lith."
"But that's how other people call me."
"What?! Cant be. Everybody! Stop refering to this person as Lith until the issue between us is resolved."
I have a request also: Can you people refrain from using the term "America(n)" when refering to the residents of the US, and use "European invading settlers" instead? Cos I know about a continent thats called America and it sure aint the country they live in.
Privatehudson
Yes I'm aware of the points you've raised in the past, I'm just awaiting the other side of the story from Lith. I'm sure he feels he has some valid reasons, and would be interested to hear them.
Can I request we don't get silly about this?
Lith-Maethor
le sigh...
i think this should either be discussed in a new thread or not at all, but anyway...
as quite a few Balkans (not just greek) will say, the country some refer to as "Macedonia" is a rather weird experience... after doing some research with people i know from the countries around us, they seem to have created a country out of whatever elements they liked from the rest of us... a name here, a historical persona there, a bit of the history of this or that region... basically an amalgam of Balkan history from the time of Alexander till now...
this is not a simple matter of "hi, I'm george" "well look at that... I'm george too" ...the two regions using the name "Macedonia" at the moment (rightfully or not) are next to each other and both where in the past part of the empire alexander built... with the part i live in, being the very core... by using the name, things get confusing, as people try to take the history of another nation as their own... even though nobody with a basic knowledge of history or geography would ever confuse the two regions (the country and the main part of northern greece) sadly our world is inhabited mostly by people who are ignorant...
...unless i am mistaken, there are at least 20 towns, cities and villages in the state that use the name Athens... of course there is no chance anyone will ever confuse any of them with our capitol (unless of course we are talking about people who have Xena and Hercules as their only guide) when things get closer and when with the name, the history is used as well, things get dangerous... very dangerous indeed ...there is a tribe somewhere in asia that have more ties to alexander than the people of Skopje (or FYROM if you want me to be politically (in)correct) will ever have
...what happens here is as if all of a sudden two States in the US started using the same name and claimed they have the same history... there is not a single historical evidence to back the claims of that country... and a simple or not so simple search will reveal this... i am part macedonian, part thessalian... and i never trusted school books to teach me history... i always did my own digging... however, in this particular case, all sources i ever came across gave no hints whatsoever that Macedonia has ever been anything but Greece, whatever the "tribe" ruling it was... on that note, Macedonians were more related to Spartans than any other Greek ...does this mean this country can claim sparta as well?
Consis
Finally...
...A debate of great significance and importance.
This is truly what lies at the heart, yes heart of the matter for Greece and the Former Yugoslav republic now calling itself Macedonia. I say heart with great enthusiasm because, as Lith-Maethor has commented, regardless of what the history books say it is more important what the people think of and feel is deep within their hearts.
The books say what they've always said: Macedonia was ruled by Alexander the Great, the youngest ruler ever to conquer the 'known' world. But the books are far from representative of what lies at the heart of what people truly feel inside. This is an important concept because it is what helps determine the identity of a people, be they large or small. A peoples' identity is intrensically linked to something that relates on a very personal level to the individual who was created in it. National identity is a very important part of what allows millions of people to unite behind a single flag, to stand for they think is most important, and to tell the world in a single voice that they must be heard. It's all really quite amazing if you think about the countless number of civilizations who've evolved into what they are today.
I must point out that there are also a lot of people who consider Alexander the Great to be quote:
~"The most charismatic leader ever."
~"The most skilled military general."
~"The bravest warrior."
Hmm....I don't know if I really quite agree with such drama but he was certainly an important figure in history; the least of which I would associate with the entirely rich Greek history and culture. The Greeks have done so many other significant and important things for the whole world that I see very little significance in Alexander the Great who most likely had the throne being kept warm for him by his mother.
Silverblade
You are talking about the movie eh Consis? Another Hollywood block buster movie based only a few names and several parts of their story then put them in a shaker with a few graphics and actors and there..Your great movie!Troy too..Great movies to watch not at all *educational* though. Quote:
The Greeks have done so many other significant and important things for the whole world that I see very little significance in Alexander the Great
Nontheless Alexander is a part and a great one in greek history. Throughout his conquest he spread the greek culture. Do you believe that is accidental that in Asia mainland were found greek letters curved on momuments? Or that there is a nomadic tribe living near India can speak ancient greek?
Back to the second major issue here.Svarog I would have opposed to this if I had seen anywhere the word *Macedonia* but I quess that someone didn't payed attention to this forum..
Yes I can confirm what Lith have said..about everything.Not just that I am Greek like him.And besides where I come from is far from Macedonia yet I have studied Alexander's history NOT from school books. School books are full of simplfied events and elements that are part real.
This subject was brought up again by George Bush. The first thing he did when he go re-elected was to acknowledge FYROM as Macedonia. A term that has not being accepted by UN EU or Greece. A couple of days ago Athens neagosiated with Skopje so FYROM will be named Republica of Macedonia-Skopje or New Republic of Macedonia (forgive me If I have written wrong names) in order to have those names as their official and world-wide accepted. Yet Skopje said NO and that those names could only be used for official neaggosiations between FYROM and Greece.
____________
Back for Oblivion
|
|
LinnielErithil
Tavern Dweller
Guardian of Nature
|
|
posted April 14, 2005 01:37 PM |
|
|
And another country's insight
First, hello all, just registered, mainly because this topic, so I guess something good may come out of it indeed...
That said, I am one of the people from other countries around "Macedonia" that Lith Maethor referred about... and felt compelled to defend the position of my country, namely Bulgaria... Bulgaria is known as the only country in the world, bordering on itself... because it borders on this nice little state named Macedonia, as already stated, not name they should use, but oh well... They speak a language named Macedonian, well, let me tell you this, this language is more similar to Bulgarian than most of the dialects in Bulgaria... And somehow it turned out we have stolen -their- alphabet, and -their- language... Hmmm, now, that is really curious, since Bulgaria is a country existing for more than 1300 years, while "Macedonia" as we all know, was created after the former Yugoslavia fell apart... and for the large portion of its existence as territory has been part of Bulgaria... Not to mention it was the Bulgarian Tzar Boris I that welcomed the students of Cyril and Methodius in -Bulgaria- (back then this interesting little conglomerate of "all we like, please here" was part of Bulgaria...), and they died in Bulgaria as well...
Also, they interestingly enough try to claim some of our leaders (hmmm, is it just me that sees a pattern here?), one of the brightest examples Tzar Samuil, who named himself Tzar of Bulgaria... seems the guy has no right of opinion according to our friends "Macedonians"...
I should end with this... I have no problem with "Macedonians" having their country, their national identity, and whatever... go ahead. But guys, make -your- history, don't steal this of others, because this only makes you seem ridiculous in the eyes of the ones that know. Sadly, this is small portion of the people, true. Hopefully threads like this will change the latter.
|
|
bort
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
|
|
posted April 14, 2005 02:37 PM |
|
|
What's in a name?
A Macedonian by any other name would still have that foul stench of death, decay and, for some reason, blueberries that Svarog emits.
(*disclaimer* this post is in no way meant to mean that all Macedonians/Greeks/Albanians/Falkland Islanders(who have also recently uncovered evidence that they are the true heirs to Alexanders throne) generate a nasal cacophony, I have a good friend who also refers to herself as Macedonian and, although she can be quite a psycho at times, actually smells quite pleasant or at least not particularly offensive).
As to two states calling themselves the same thing, North and South Dakota have been enganged in a long genocidal war(that's why there are so few people there) over who gets to keep Mount Rushmore. (The Lakota are believed to be secretly pulling the strings behind the scenes, playing both sides against one another).
Violence will occasionally flare up between North and South Carolina as North Carolina keeps trying to force South Carolina to take Duke University of their hands.
The great Virginian war didn't actually last that long. Basically, the West Virginians kept throwing dynamite across the border and the Virginians kept lighting it and throwing it back.
____________
Drive by posting.
|
|
Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
|
|
posted April 14, 2005 08:39 PM |
|
|
LOL What about Great Britain then?
Quote:
First, hello all, just registered, mainly because this topic, so I guess something good may come out of it indeed...
What good will come out of your propaganda? You have just started another flame war.
Quote:
Bulgaria is known as the only country in the world, bordering on itself... because it borders on this nice little state named Macedonia
Oooh, really? The only country that borders on itself? What about Serbia, Albania or Hungary? What about the rest of the world? Actually, that phrase sounds like a populistic snowe launched by the local nationalists.
It sounds familiar, you know. Haven't we heard tales about Great Serbia? Or Great Albania? What good has come out of them? Has some historical injustice been righted? Or have we seen countless dead and even more bad blood?
Tell me, wasn't "your" Macedonia the reason why your country sided with Germany in WW I and WW II?
Quote:
They speak a language named Macedonian, well, let me tell you this, this language is more similar to Bulgarian than most of the dialects in Bulgaria...
Funny that you (of all!) should mention it; weren't you a Turk tribe speaking a Slavic language?
Quote:
Bulgaria is a country existing for more than 1300 years, while "Macedonia" as we all know, was created after the former Yugoslavia fell apart...
Do your homework.
Looking forward to reading what Svarog has to say on the issue. 
____________
|
|
Silverblade
Known Hero
Notorious Homo Erectus
|
|
posted April 14, 2005 08:44 PM |
|
|
Believe me we all are
____________
Back for Oblivion
|
|
Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
|
posted April 14, 2005 10:06 PM |
|
Edited By: Consis on 14 Apr 2005
|
I Was Thinking....
Don't most countries have more than one visionary who has championed the cause of further national identity? Is the Macedonian name based solely on Alexander the Great? Surely there must've been someone else from that region of the world who also supported this identity yes?
For example, George Washington was a great American icon, military general, and lover of walnuts(); but he is not the only person we Americans look toward when defining our national identity. We are not called "Washington's United States" because there are literally thousands of great historical figures associated with our heritage/history/founding. Rather than focus on the accomplishments of one man/woman, we prefer to acknowledge "E Pluribus Unum".
____________
Roses Are Red And So Am I
|
|
terje_the_ma...
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
|
|
posted April 14, 2005 10:47 PM |
|
|
Vlaad:
Quote:
Looking forward to reading what Svarog has to say on the issue.
Indeed.
Svarog is the Balkan inhabitant I have met who has the most balanced views on the history of the region. He's one of the few people from Balkan I've met who doesn't simply reproduce nationalist propaganda from the early 1900s...
As for this entire topic, you people still hasn't presented a single piece evidence in favour of your position - "I've done my own reading in books other than schoolbooks" isn't exactly a valid argument, is it?
As far as I can see, those of you who attack Macedonia hasn't really given any good arguments as to why you feel that it isn't entitled to its current name.
Last, I just ask this simple question: What does it really matter what they name themselves?
____________
"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
|
|
Lith-Maethor
Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
|
|
posted April 15, 2005 03:07 AM |
|
|
Vlaad
Quote:
What good will come out of your propaganda? You have just started another flame war.
in case you missed it, this part of HC is for such discussions among other things, if anybody is starting a flamewar that would be you
terje
Quote:
As for this entire topic, you people still hasn't presented a single piece evidence in favour of your position
fair enough... after only 2 minutes of google-ing (keyword: Macedonia) i found this wikipedia entry while it is tainted by CIA World Factbook non-facts (well, according to them i am a descendant of Vlad Tepes... not that i don't like the guy, but hey...) it gives a pretty good summary of the whole deal... if you want more resources (and perhaps more proper ones) you will have to wait... RL has that downside sometimes
terje
Quote:
Last, I just ask this simple question: What does it really matter what they name themselves?
...tell me you are not serious ...to me (and i guess most people that cry out about this) that country using the name Macedonia is as obscene as a hillbilly telling a Cherokee (or Cheyenne or Sioux, etc) to go back to where they came from if they don't like life in the US of America (sorry Peacemaker for stealing that little fun fact) ...and quite frankly, over the last few years i have seen way too many attempts to rape my country's history (and i am not even including holywood here, they rape anything they touch)
____________
You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
|
|
LinnielErithil
Tavern Dweller
Guardian of Nature
|
|
posted April 15, 2005 04:20 AM |
|
|
*sigh*
Okay, I have to give a few replies at least... Mainly to Vlaad.
First, yes, the thing that sounded like flaming to me was your reply... luckily not too surprised... Apparently according to you I am a nationalist... oh, well, fair enough. I would refer this as loving my country, and defending its history. Yes, at some point Bulgaria has been a large country, touching upon three seas, and being the major rival of Byzantium. How many people outside Bulgaria, and possibly Greece know that? Not many... unfortunately. The people that now live on the territory of F.Y.R.O.M, have for most of their history referred to themselves as Bulgarian. After the territory of Bulgaria was freed from Ottoman presence (as is the politically correct term today), Bulgaria was restored in its ethnic borders, and F.Y.R.O.M. was part of it. It was separated from Bulgaria as many other territories, due to a simple fact... big state on the Balkans equals inconvenient state for the Great Powers... Guess what were the Macedonian doing then... struggling to become part of Bulgaria again.
Yes, the hope to be able to regain a piece of territory that was for all our history Bulgarian, and in which the people themselves back then still thought of themselves as ethnic Bulgarian was one of the reasons Bulgaria sided with Germany in WW I and WW II. If you ask me, not wise decision, made on sentimental rather than political views. Of course, Hitler's army on our border in WW II was rather the reason we had to ditch our neutrality, but oh well...
All that was a bit of historical insight most of you may try to flame, or tell me I am a warring nationalist. Well, no. F.Y.R.O.M, as I said, is now independent country with people with national identity... I have no urges for creating Great Bulgaria. But I know the past of -my- country. And I see no reason to allow another such to steal pieces of our history, and to rape our past, in order to form a national identity.
P.S. The thing with the country bordering on itself is a common joke in Bulgaria, even if having a good historical base. For all offended, my apologies.
|
|
Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
|
|
posted April 15, 2005 05:18 AM |
|
|
Wow, nice Balkan gang we’ve got here. Usually those meetings don’t end up for good.  Lets start with offering a link which gives my historical-political perspective of the problem, and I strongly recommend anyone who’s not familiar with the problem to read it. Macedonians; who are they?
The main problem which has been causing all the crap on the Balkans in the past centuries is that people think they can own history, that historical people and events can be owned by entire nations, and whats worse, that such kind of perfect division can be done on a region as multietnic and diverse as the Balkans, where people have shared their history of living side by side for centuries, until the wave of nationalism and the appearance of nations swept across the Balkans and created almost tribal rivalry between petty kings, working in service of much bigger and more important powers.
Given the extreme nationalism of the Balkans where people actually are firmly convinced that their “nation” existed uninterupted and endemically evolved, dating back ever since Noah released the animals from his Arc; its ridicilous, and at the same time tragic when the traditional Balkan rivalaries come to surface in all possible cominations. Allow me to illustrate: Macedonians claim Alexander was theirs, Greeks also, Albanians say he was Albanian (cos his mother was from Epirus; Greeks say she was Greek again), and Bulgarians by saying that Macedonians are Bulgarians claim that Alexander was in fact Bulgarian. Serbs claim Kosovo is theirs, Albanians deny it, Albanians claim right on Western Macedonia, Macedonians as well; Albanians also want Epirus, Greeks want to keep it; Macedonians say that Greek Macedonia and Bulgarian Macedonia are occupied territories, Bulgarians say that all of Macedonia is Bulgarian; Serbs say Bosnians are but islamized Serbs without history, Bosnians don’t agree. Bulgaria and Greece each claim Thrace is their national territory; Greece also says Western Anatolia is Greek, Turks want some of the coastal islands, both countries disagree on Cyprus again, Bosnia is a story all for itself. Croats, Serbs, Bosnians – all want it. And so on and on continues the bloody orgy.
Some of this unfortunate countries saw a largely monolithic development of the national consciounce, unshattered by foreign propaganda and wars, and with a strong government to feed the collective myth that nations actually do exist, have always existed and arent a concept invented in XIX to serve the interests of few powerful people. Some others (like Bosnia and Macedonia) didn’t, and the multiethnic nature of the countries, as well as some other objective factors contributed these countries to find themselves in the harsh reality of nationalistic hawkish pretensions surrounding them, without a strong national tissue which could resist and possibly even annihilate the other one. Macedonia isnt just the country where I live in, Macedonia is a historical region which includes the northern part of Greece (and that’s about a half of the entire region Maceodnia), and a small part of Western Bulgaria also. The remainder is the country where I live in, and which we choose to call Macedonia, and ourselves Macedonians. This wasn’t a random decision but happened through the course of centuries, because it was precisely this area (not just Rep. Macedonia) where the Macedonian nation of Slavic origin lived ever since the VII century. They lived on the territory of Macedonia, on the territory where up till then the Ancient Maceodnians, who were romanized when the Slavs arrived, lived, so it was only natural for them to start calling themselves like that. At the beginning of the XX century, two thirds of the population of Macedonia (not just my country, i repeat) were Slavic Macedonians, but with a weak national identity, as most of them were peasants and uneducated people and the religious identity played a bigger role then (because the main “enemy” up till then were the Turks, who were muslims). The surrounding Bulgaria, Greece and Serbia formed an alliance in order to “liberate” Macedonia of Turkish slavery (the First Balkan War - 1912), only to break up the pact soonafter and start warring with each other over how to divide Macedonia among themselves (The Second Balkan War – 1913). That is how Macedonia got its current borders which divided the once compact population, and in all divided parts a policy of assimilation was implemented. It was most evident in Greece, where the etnic composition dramatically changed (as now there are barely 3% Maceodnians, who declare as such, and they used to be 60% in the beginning of XX. Actually they don’t declare as such, because the Greek government forbids such option in the national census, and is under constant criticism by Human Rights Comissions for its treatment of minorities, including Macedonians)
As to Macedonians “desire to become Bulgarians”, if they did so much, why didn’t they simply do it. Poor them, they wanted to be Bulgarians so much, that Bulgaria simply had to ally with Hitler and occupy them, because there was no other way. I almost feel sorry for us, how we missed the opportunity and decided to fight Nazism and our Bulgarian brothers, instead of joyfully embracing them.
Historical injustices have been committed over my people and I don’t want to get back into any of that. The pressing issue is now over the name of the country (which is less than a half of the original region), since Greeks claim that Macedonia has always been Greek (!!!). Its an odd idea, since Macedonia has always been multicultural, but hardly ever Greek. Even when we’re talking about Ancient times, the ethnicity of Alexander remains unclear, and there are many many evidents which denounce his Hellenistic origin.(refer to the linked thread for any historical discussion)
Nevertheless, its absolutely not important of what origin Alexander was, for a nation of some 12 centuries afterwards to have a right of self-determination. Its every individuals right to declare themselves whatever they like, and especially if they historically shared a culture with a region whose name they wish to hold as theirs. To forbid them this right is a direct attack of national identity, and belongs to a different age. It is especially delicate for a country as Macedonia, who is often called the Balkan apple of discord since all surrounding nations wanted to conquer it, and should it become unstable, there’s a likelihood of another Balkan war to happen. Currently, Maceodnia is under a silent threat of Albanian nationalism, and all acts working towards denying the national identity, which includes the name (by Greece), the church (by Serbia), the language and distinctiveness (by Bulgaria), the ethnical territory (by extreme Albanian structures) can easily lead to destabilization and war.
People believeing that Bulgaria (1300 years!) or Greece, or any other country for that matter had a national continuity of millenia, I find them a bit shallow to be honest. Wake up people, there are no Serbian, Macedonian, Greek Bulgarian histories on the Balkans. Those things started in the XIX century. Before that it was all Balkan history. And to end it, I’ll give you a quote from one of our glorious pure Macedonian-blood Ariyan writers: “We are all one huge crap on the street. It only happened in history that some wagons passed over it couple of times and divided it in parts of minor craplings, but we still stink the same, we are all still the same.”
____________
The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
|
|
Lith-Maethor
Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
|
|
posted April 15, 2005 06:06 AM |
|
|
you know svarog... i envy you...
that is quite the skill you have there, bending facts to suit your little story... you want to talk history? fine ..lets talk history ...Herodotus himself says that Alexander I was allowed to take part in the olympic games as he proved to be greek and not a barbarian (using the original meaning of the word, all Stronghold lovers back off) ...and Herodotus is the source many bring up as proof Macedonians were not Greeks (Dorians to be exact) ...go figure... what you refer to as Macedonians (i guess your ancestors?) set foot on your country and surrounding areas a few (or not so few) centuries later... there is no connection whatsoever between them and the Macedonians, which of course makes Alexander the Great's origin even more unimportant to this discussion
...as for the other conflicts you speak of... well, most deserve a thread of their own (especially Cyprus) ...but i will say this ...your country, as well as the easter part of Bulgaria are in fact parts of Macedonia... however the biggest part of Macedonia, is in Greece... if our friendly (and at times not-so-friendly) Bulgarian neighbours tried to name their country Macedonia, be sure there would be a similar outrage ...as i would expect one if Greece (Ellas actually) tried to change the name to Macedonia... it would be as stupid and pointless as Germany changing its name to Central Europe ...starting to see where part of the problem lies now?
...I will say one thing about the so-called national minorities in Greece as (according to the CIA World Factbook) i belong to one (Wallachian descendants aka Vlachs) ...there is no such thing as "Vlach minority" in Greece and if you try to say that, you will have pretty much all the Vlachs here after your a$$ for hinting we are not Greeks... as would Pontioi or any other "tribe" the brains in the CIA or wherever try to pass as "national minority" ...i will leave your altered view of bulgarian history to those better versed into the subject than me ...but i have only one more thing to say
...you want a country? be my guest! ...you want a national identity? by all means! ...you want history? you have it! ...but for the love of God, Buddha, Allah, Manitou, Zeus, Jupiter, Odin and whoever-the-****-else you want
STICK TO WHAT IS YOURS
____________
You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
|
|
LinnielErithil
Tavern Dweller
Guardian of Nature
|
|
posted April 15, 2005 07:07 AM |
|
|
Sad
Yes, sad... I was sad to see the next rape of Bulgarian history in the post of Svarog. But let's stop arguing with opinions... I will let my opinion to rest. And let the facts speak. Found four online sources, intentionally not Bulgarian ones, and will post them for the ones that are curious here... with quotes from each of them for those who want not to dig in all the information.
[url=http://www.lonelyplanet.com/destinations/europe/bulgaria/history.htm]Here is the first[/url]
"In 679, the Bulgars, thought to be of Indo-Iranian origin, crossed the Danube to found the First Bulgarian Empire; they then expanded south at Byzantium's expense before finally conquering Macedonia in the 9th century."
"European powers, fearful of a powerful Russian satellite in the Balkans, hacked away bits of Bulgaria, leaving everyone unsatisfied and ready to snap into the two Balkan Wars which preceded WWI."
"Bulgaria did none too well as a result of 20th-century diplomatic hand-wringing, losing Macedonia and grumbling its way into an alliance with the Central Powers in WWI, despite internal opposition. The interwar years were characterised by serious problems with Macedonian refugees, communist uprisings and economic crises."
[url=http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/world/A0857064.html]Here is the second[/url]
"Ancient Thrace and Moesia, which modern Bulgaria occupies, were settled (6th cent. A.D.) by Slavic tribes. In 679-80, Bulgar tribes from the banks of the Volga (see Bulgars, Eastern) crossed the Danube, subjugated the Slavs, and settled permanently in the territory of Bulgaria. The language and culture remained Slavic, and by the 9th cent. the Bulgars had fully merged with the Slavs. The first Bulgarian empire (681-1018), established by Khan Asparuhk, or Isperikh (ruled 680-701), and his successor, Tervel (ruled 701-718), soon emerged as a significant Balkan power and a threat to Byzantium."
"By recognizing the authority of the Orthodox Eastern Church in Constantinople over all Christians in their empire, the Turks undermined the basis of Bulgarian culture. A determined effort was made to destroy Bulgarian Christianity and the Bulgarian language."
[url=http://www.culturegrams.com/demo/world/world_country_sections.php?sname=History&snid=2]Here is the third[/url]
"Although allied with Germany in World Wars I and II, Bulgaria was not always compliant with the military power. In 1943, the protests of the people, clergymen, politicians, and king prevented the country's 50,000 Jews from being deported to Polish concentration camps"
Comment here: Bulgaria is one of the two countries that rebelled and saved their Jews from torture and death in Nazi concentration camps. The -people-, even the tzar himself (king is wrong term), regardless of political alliance. So... your brothers Bulgarian have a reason to be proud of their standing in the crisis. I am.
[url=http://www.world66.com/europe/bulgaria/history]And fourth and last[/url]
"From the ninth until the fourteenth century Bulgaria was a dominant force in the Balkans because of its aggressive military tradition and strong sense of national identity."
"The instrument of that limitation the Treaty of Berlin revived longstanding Bulgarian territorial frustrations by placing the critical regions of Macedonia and Thrace beyond Bulgarian control. Both of those disputed regions had substantial Bulgarian populations. During the next sixty years Bulgaria would fight unsuccessfully in four wars in a variety of alliances to redress the grievance."
As a conclusion... please, stop trying to deny other countries and other nations their identity and history in order to form your own. You are welcome to be as proud and independent as you want... but not on the expense of history and facts.
Edit: Sorry, but I just MUST add something... Vlaad... we were a Turk tribe speaking Slavic language!? WTF!?... Honest advice... next time, before you say something SO ridiculous, do a small small bit of research. Really.
|
|
terje_the_ma...
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
|
|
posted April 15, 2005 12:42 PM |
|
|
An attempt at a critical view on nationalism...
"Nationalism is so effective, because it can be used to legitimate anything at all. We can sum up the usual nationalist demands for legitimate 'liberation like this:
1. An area that belonged to us 500 years ago, but has belonged to you for the last 500, must be returned to us. You are, after all, the occupants.
2. An area that has belonged to us for the last 50 years, but to you for the 500 years preceding that, must continue to be under our control. We have to respect that borders are holy!
3. An area that has belonged to you for the last 500 years must be returned to us. It is our 'cultural cradle'!
4. An area where our people makes out the majority has to belong to us. After all, the majority has to decide!
5. An area where our people makes out the minority, has to belong to us. After all, the minority must be protected!
6. All these pricipals applies to us, but not to you.
7. Our dream of greatness is justified; yours is fascism."
Make out of this post whatever you like to, but I mainly intend it as support to Svarog's statement that to attempt to "own" history is absurd, pointless (at least so long as you want something constructive to happen), and last but not least, potentially dangerous.
____________
"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
|
|
Silverblade
Known Hero
Notorious Homo Erectus
|
|
posted April 15, 2005 02:12 PM |
|
|
Svarog - A few questions about Alexander
Let's suppose that Alexander wasn't Greek.
Then why he send 3000 Persian armour plates as a tribute to Athens while he had previously conquered Greece and could just send them to somewhere in Macedonia?
Why did he consulted the Oracle of Delphi in Thessaly before beginning his campaign against the Persian Empire and in fact he didn't send a messenger as the others would have done and went there himself?
Why did he ever campaigned against the vast and powerful Persian empire?Was it just to claim new lands?And if so why wouldn't he attack northen regions or moving towards Italy?
Answer me these and I'll continue later with more questions
Ah a few more things I would kill to know your answer
Where was Alexander born, where that place is located (as many details as you can please - don't search google or any map), 'Alexander' what does it mean and from where it's originated? All with as many Details as you can. These are quite easy questions I believe you won't have problem to answer in none of them
P.S. I am no ethnikist nationalist racist or whatever. Just curious
____________
Back for Oblivion
|
|
Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
|
posted April 15, 2005 04:23 PM |
|
|
Building A Nation
I was thinking that sometimes building a nation will eventually become building-a-nationality. What is the difference? Building a nation entails more protection of the cultural, religious, and philisophical values that the majority of a peoples' have come together through. Building a nationality seems more about where the nation's uniqueness fits in the global collage of different nations.
I would argue that building a nation should focus more on protecting the ideals that the nation was founded upon. This is a major principle associated with Americans. The land we live on and call our own was, in fact, not ours to begin with. Our history tells us that we came here and became a country in principle first; then reality. The original thirteen colonies weren't much of anything really. The United States at that time only existed in the minds of the people who claimed it was so. This is proof that a nation can be founded on an idea in the hearts and minds of the people who share this common ground(philisophical ground).
This is why I take the side of the Macedonians for the name they have chosen. But taking a name and coming together under a common denominator(or shared belief) is only the first step. History has shown and proven without a shadow of a doubt that the world will not simply recognize upstart ideas as sovereign authorities. The right to be recognized must come through an establishment of respect in the minds of the other countries of the world.
Many countries have tried and failed in history. Macedonia will be no different. It must somehow prove its worth to its neighbors and the rest of the world. Try to think about any other sovereign power of today outside of Macedonia. Think about what would happen if any of those countries were hypothetically invaded. When an invasion of a truly sovereign nation occurs, it will inescapably spell real consequences for the rest of the world.
1. Let's say Turkey is invaded by Russia. hamsi128 tells me this would be World War III.
2. Let's say Bulgaria is invaded by Russia. Russia would be seen by the world as becoming a new threat; gaining too much and too close a foothold toward central europe.
3. The same goes for Poland. This country is considered the gateway to europe through which Russia has historically trodded.
4. What if France invaded Germany? Then this would spell a threat to Great Britain.
5. What if the U.S. invaded North Korea? Then this would spell a threat to China.
These are all hypothetical situations calculated on the theoretical stability a sovereign nation provides. The question today is what the sovereignty Macedonia provides for its region.
1. What kinds of threats can we(the rest of the world) calculate if the larger Greece nation invaded the smaller Macedonia?
~A. Would Greece be seen as gaining too much ground by the Turks?
~B. Would Albania simply sit by and watch or would they see an opportunity to take advantage of a committed Greek military of far to the East?
~C. What about Bulgaria? Would they claim their people in Macedonia are being attacked?
Leaving the hypotheticals and theories aside, the realitistic answer is "time". A sovereign nation must gain its global recognition through the test of time. And I would further argue that regional stability be the largest factor in this test. Macedonia must be able to successfully defend itself from foreign interests. And It must do this in a way as to gain the respect from, not necessarily its neighbors, but from the current global powers. Global powers are historically known to greatly invest in smaller countries' interests if those intesrests support their interests. These interests can be anything ranging from economic to regional law enforcement to philisophical; and even some religious.
...all humbly derived from the mental origins within myself....of course...
____________
Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
|
|
LinnielErithil
Tavern Dweller
Guardian of Nature
|
|
posted April 15, 2005 05:37 PM |
|
|
Apparently needed clarifications
I guess somebody in this thread, like most of the people, is seriously missing the point. So let me try and make this clear once and for all.
In this thread I am not trying to dispute the right of F.Y.R.O.M. to be a sovereign state. Nor am I trying to lay any territorial claims of Bulgaria over the territory of this country. I am not saying that F.Y.R.O.M. should become part of Bulgaria once more, and I am pretty sure Lith Maethor is not trying to say they should become part of Greece as well. I AM NOT SAYING ANY OF THESE RIDICULOUS THINGS! No.
As I apparently should state for the %$& time, F.Y.R.O.M. is an independent state on the Balkan peninsula, our neighbors, Bulgaria has recognized them as such, and for God's sake, nobody is trying to invade them!
I think there is something of a guilt sindrom around. Maybe we still feel guilty, the world in general, that such thing as Hitler and the Nazis was allowed to happen? Don't know. Anyway, what I see is that every time some person displays pride to belong to his/her nation and knowledge in the history of said nation, people grab the torches, and start shouting "Down! Nationalist! Fascist!" Even worse, it shows the disturbing fact that the two terms, nationalist and fascist are mixed in the perception of people. So let me try to have this clear. Nationalist is a person who is identifies himself with given nation, and is proud of the fact. Who shares the values, goals, culture of this nation. There is nothing wrong with being a nationalist. That is as if to say it is wrong to be proud to be student of given university, club, whatever. The feeling of belonging to a given group is not something bad. The moment nationalism starts being a bad concept, a dangerous concept, is the moment the people of a given nation bring it to an extreme, and start warring for the extermination or assimilation of all other nations, or some amount of other nations on the basis of "superiority" of nation or some similar absurdity. For this thing there are different terms. Extremism. Fascism. Nazism. Nothing brought to an extreme is good, even goodness... same goes for nationalism. But the concept in itself doesn't equal or even include assimilations of nations, World Wars or whatever! This is similar to saying that the concept of faith equals the Inquisition.
I am not a warring nationalist, or fascist. I don't want to destroy the relatively newly formed nation of F.Y.R.O.M., no. But I know the history of my country. And defend it. I don't believe that its rape and destruction is necessary for the forming of this new nation.
And on that note, I will say something that will probably make the guilt sindrom jump all over again. History can be owned. That is, in the sense that there is such thing as a history of a nation, a state, a person. To claim the contrary is nothing but absurd. Or maybe since history cannot be owned that there is no such thing as British history? Maybe country with such an ancient culture as China has no history? Or maybe even, since they don't own their history, Bulgaria can claim the history of China?
People, let's not become absurd please, and let's not try to see devils, fascist and warring nationalists (since you so much insist on using that term with negative connotation) where there are simply people defending their views. This is a discussion. We discuss.
Relax. Think. Leave the torches aside. Now, doesn't it feel better this way?
|
|
Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
|
|
posted April 15, 2005 06:12 PM |
|
Edited By: Consis on 15 Apr 2005
|
Macedonians Must Be Free.
Does the word "hypothetical" mean anything to you?
Macedonia's sovereignty is in fact at the very heart of the debate here. Let the Macedonians be free to choose their own identity! Freedom of self governance and establishment of cultural identity is the very definition of sovereignty! Macedonia has only been treated with sanctions and embargos because it is smaller than all of its neighbors. If the U.S. suddenly decided to take the name of some ancient Aztec city/empire, would Mexico be able to do anything about it? Nope. I feel like Macedonia is being bullied by its neighbors because they are larger. Macedonians are free people therefore they have the right to any identity they choose. This is why President Bush was so open in calling them what they have collectively chosen to be called. It is their right.
____________
Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
|
|
Lith-Maethor
Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
|
posted April 15, 2005 07:03 PM |
|
|
consis... i feel like slapping you silly
do you even read what you post? i think not
i should probably step back and let go of the keyboard till the steam coming out of my ears has subsided and my mind is out of the red haze of frenzy it is now... apparently, not only you fail to read you own posts but in the fluffy disney world of your mind, you either do not read at all, or simply choose to warp to your liking the posts of everybody else who is on the other side of the argument
they have no more right to call themselves Macedonians than i have the right to call myself a Celt ...that would be like a bunch of europeans going to another continent, claiming the land (even if a minor percentage) and calling their new nation --- ...ok, i think i see your point, excuse me... how could i doubt their right to do so
instead of jumping up and down shouting "nationalist!" like a five year old ratting out another kid to the teacher, take some time and see what we are actually saying here ...for the millionth time
YES! they can make their own nation
YES! they can have their own identity
YES! they can have their own history
NO! they cannot steal the history of their neighbours
NO! they cannot use the name of a territory they only have the 15(?) percent of
NO! they cannot usurp the history, rights and everything else, good or bad, that goes with that name
NO! they cannot make claims that have no valid argument and could in the future threaten their neighbours
by your logic, the US of A had any right to use the name United States of Cherokee ...or if you prefer, Texas could easily change the state name to United States of America
is it so hard to see what they are doing is as obscene as it gets? or do you live in a world where everybody gets along no matter how many corpses and violations of any kind are needed to pave the way?
____________
You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
|
|
Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
|
posted April 15, 2005 07:11 PM |
|
Edited By: Consis on 15 Apr 2005
|
Well...
I'm trying to understand Lith-Maethor. They aren't taking Greece as their name. They're taking Macedonia.
~Greece is Greek is Hellinic is what you are trying to say?
~And you are also saying Macedonia is Hellinic?
It seems I am confused. It seems like the Greeks gave up the Macedonian name when they gave up that empire at the exact time of death of Alexander the Great. This is a strange thing that one very young man is credited with creating an empire that instantly falls when he dies. Perhaps this is why Greeks want to be named Greeks. The Greek culture is unending and resonates throughout the entire world. This is more appropriate for Greeks to be called Greek. But again why take such interest in the Macedonian name? Why don't Greeks call themselves Athenians? This too was a Greek empire yes?
____________
Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
|
|
Lith-Maethor
Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
|
|
posted April 15, 2005 07:30 PM |
|
|
flat surface + head ...hit, rinse, repeat as needed
first of all "greek" and "greece" is not really a proper name, but thats not the point ...the sum of people of the city-states of ancient greece, called themselves greeks for quite a few centuries before alexander ...the macedonians were accepted as such ...but we are going back to the "was Alexander a Greek?" argument that is not really the issue here
Macedonia is a territory, as is Thessaly, Peloponissos and Thrace ...what they are doing is no different than if Turkey changed its name to Thrace or, as i said before, Greece changing the name to Balkans ...its simply not logical in any way
____________
You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
|
| |
|
|
