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| Thread: Arise ye workers from your slumbers! |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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The_Workers
Hired Hero
Red Menace of HC
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posted May 01, 2005 01:20 AM |
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Arise ye workers from your slumbers!
Arise ye workers from your slumbers
Arise ye prisoners of want
For reason in revolt now thunders
And at last ends the age of cant.
Away with all your superstitions
Servile masses arise, arise
We'll change henceforth the old tradition
And spurn the dust to win the prize.
So comrades, come rally
And the last fight let us face
The Internationale unites the human race.
So comrades, come rally
And the last fight let us face
The Internationale unites the human race.
No more deluded by reaction
On tyrants only we'll make war
The soldiers too will take strike action
They'll break ranks and fight no more
And if those cannibals keep trying
To sacrifice us to their pride
They soon shall hear the bullets flying
We'll shoot the generals on our own side.
No saviour from on high delivers
No faith have we in prince or peer
Our own right hand the chains must shiver
Chains of hatred, greed and fear
E'er the thieves will out with their booty
And give to all a happier lot.
Each at the forge must do their duty
And we'll strike while the iron is hot.
Happy Labour Day, my dear Comrades! 
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Workers Of All Countries, Unite!
...the ruling ideas are the rulers' ideas...
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ratmonky
Famous Hero
Abu Hur Ibn Rashka
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posted May 01, 2005 06:44 PM |
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ditto!
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Dies illa, dies irae,
Calamitatis et miseriae.
Requiem aeternum
Dona eis, dona eis Domine.
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IYY
Responsible
Supreme Hero
REDACTED
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posted May 01, 2005 06:46 PM |
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The revolution will come!
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terje_the_ma...
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
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posted May 02, 2005 06:37 AM |
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Indeed it will!
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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Marelt_Ekiran
Promising
Famous Hero
Watcher of All
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posted May 02, 2005 07:26 AM |
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If your revolution comes, could you please get rid of my Union in the process. I just dislike an institute which negociates a slightly higher wage for me and then takes away twice the amount that they negociated in fees.
P.S. I think you should not be allowed to be a communist if you're not a proletarian.
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Perception is everything.
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terje_the_ma...
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
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posted May 02, 2005 07:38 AM |
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Oh, damn, that's a good one!
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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The_Workers
Hired Hero
Red Menace of HC
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posted May 02, 2005 10:01 AM |
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Quote:
P.S. I think you should not be allowed to be a communist if you're not a proletarian.
Oh man, I thought you "free society" dudes were supposed to believe in political freedom...
But that's besides the point anyway...
I'm gonna have to teach you this, once I get some sleep. 
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Workers Of All Countries, Unite!
...the ruling ideas are the rulers' ideas...
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted May 02, 2005 10:36 AM |
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sex
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Dreaming of a Better World
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The_Workers
Hired Hero
Red Menace of HC
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posted May 03, 2005 02:20 AM |
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Why the proletariat?
The first time Marx began seeing the proletariat as the main driving force behind a future revolution, was in his wok “Towards a Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of the Right: Introduction.”
”The weapon of criticism obviously cannot replace the criticism of weapons. Material force must be overthrown by material force. But theory also becomes a material force once it has gripped the masses.”
(Marx: “Towards a Critique of Hegel’s ‘Philosophy of Right’: Introduction: p. 69)
In Germany at this time, according to Marx, practical life was mindless, and no class could be free until it was forced to be by its immediate condition, by material necessity, by its very chains. But where can such a force for German freedom be found?
”In the formation of a class with radical chains ... a sphere of society having a universal character because of its universal suffering ... a sphere, in short, that is the complete loss of humanity and can only redeem itself through the total redemption of humanity. This dissolution of society as a particular class is the proletariat.”
(Marx: “Towards a Critique of Hegel’s ‘Philosophy of Right’: Introduction: p. 72-3)
”As philosophy finds its material weapons in the proletariat, the proletariat finds its intellectual weapons in philosophy.”
(Marx: “Towards a Critique of Hegel’s ‘Philosophy of Right’: Introduction: p. 73)
”Philosophy cannot be actualized without the superseding of the proletariat, the proletariat cannot be superseded without the actualization of philosophy.”
(Marx: “Towards a Critique of Hegel’s ‘Philosophy of Right’: Introduction: p. 73)
So, the entire proletariat thing is based on some rather obscure, but yet disturbingly correct, metaphysical observations. So, dearie, why do you think that one needs to be a proletarian to be a communist?
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Workers Of All Countries, Unite!
...the ruling ideas are the rulers' ideas...
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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted May 03, 2005 03:34 AM |
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Oh no...not another socialist "party"...
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted May 03, 2005 03:44 AM |
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Yes, let's have another "national socialist" party instead
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted May 03, 2005 04:34 AM |
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Nazis and Commies are more or less the same. In both instances millions of people die, more with Communists, actually.
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terje_the_ma...
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
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posted May 03, 2005 10:14 PM |
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Quote:
Nazis and Commies are more or less the same.
And here I thought you were knowledgeable of history...
How mistaken one can be...
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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Marelt_Ekiran
Promising
Famous Hero
Watcher of All
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posted May 03, 2005 10:38 PM |
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Well, here are the similarities:
- They both believed that forced labour and mass execution were the best ways to deal with any internal problems.
- They both used totalitarian indoctrination.
- They both hate America.
- Their dogma is the ultimate truth.
And honestly, do you really think that people under Hitler and people under the vast majority of communist regimed noticed any difference in their conditions. I'd argue that the people under the Nazi regime were overall better off.
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Perception is everything.
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Conan
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted May 03, 2005 10:41 PM |
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Quote:
Nazis and Commies are more or less the same. In both instances millions of people die, more with Communists, actually.
True communism has never been seen on earth so far (except for small occurences). The past communist regimes were actually Tyrannies. So yes, Nazis and Tyrants have something in common. I agree. Hitler was indeed a tyrant.
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Your life as it has been is over. From this time forward, you will service.... us. - Star Trek TNG
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terje_the_ma...
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
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posted May 04, 2005 12:17 AM |
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Quote:
Well, here are the similarities:
- They both believed that forced labour and mass execution were the best ways to deal with any internal problems.
Well, the main difference here, although it's a small one, is that the Soviets (I refuse to call them Communists - it's a perverted form of Marxism) sent people to the camps who actually represented a threat to the regime, and you could manage to keep out of those camps if you just kept your head low. While in Nazi Germany, if you were a Jew, a Commie, a Social Democrat, a homosexual, a Romani or just belonged to a demographical group that Hitler and the Nazis generally disliked, you were tossed in the oven.
Quote:
- They both used totalitarian indoctrination.
Show me a regime that doesn't use indoctrination to make their population content, and I'll have you sent to a mental hospital. 
Yes, their propaganda was not too subtle, but it's still no worse than what's being done in most countries in the world today.
Quote:
- They both hate America.
Actually, the Nazis respected the Americans for quite some time, but then suddenly turned rabidly anti-American.
And the Soviets actually had reason to despise the Americans, as they attacked them during the civil war of 1918-1922. It has been suggested that this was the reason for Stalin's distrust against the US. That, and of course the fact that the US was the most advanced capitalist country in the world.
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- Their dogma is the ultimate truth.
And the dogma of Capitalism isn't? Please...
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And honestly, do you really think that people under Hitler and people under the vast majority of communist regimed noticed any difference in their conditions. I'd argue that the people under the Nazi regime were overall better off.
That's becauese the Germans got all that loot from the Jews.
And my impression is that the average Russian got her living conditions bettered by the Revolution. But Svarog knows more about this that I do.
But seriously. This is a pointless circle argument. Supporters of capitalism will always see Hitler as less bad than Stalin, while people form the left are more likely to see the USSR as less bad. While the truth of course is that both the regimes were pretty ****** up.
Which, of course, can also be said about Capitalism, but we wouldn't, would we? It is after all the leading ideology of this paradigm. If in a perverted and evil version.
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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The_Workers
Hired Hero
Red Menace of HC
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posted May 05, 2005 12:12 AM |
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Quote:
Nazis and Commies are more or less the same.
The difference between Nazism and Communism (Communism with a capital C is equal to Bolshevism, btw, while communism with a low case c isn't), is that whereas Communism is a fairly twisted and "impure" version of its respective ideology, Nazism is the pure and unperverted form of its ideology - to the extent that one can call Nazism an ideology, and not just a ruined and twisted mess of concepts stolen from other ideologies...
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Workers Of All Countries, Unite!
...the ruling ideas are the rulers' ideas...
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Marelt_Ekiran
Promising
Famous Hero
Watcher of All
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posted May 05, 2005 01:25 AM |
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I'll combine two previous parts here into what is usually my final argument on the aspect of communism.
I often hear people claim that Leninism, Stalinism, Maoism, etc. are all not real communism. And I fully agree with that, they were indeed just despots with a lust for power.
So here's the problem. Under no circumstance could the proletariate rule itself after a revolution. That would just result in plain anarchy, which would bring you even further from your goals. The people on their own cannot be trusted to rule themselves and decide what is best for all people. You'd just get a society based on the right of the strongest (law of the jungle).
Which is where the point of the philosophers comes in. Plato already established that in order to achieve true benevolent rule, philosophers had to be made kings or kings had to be made philosophers. The whole idea that carried over to Communism is that the workers had to be guided through the steps of Communism by an intellectual elite.
Here's the problem. People are inheritely not fair. Given a chance, they will always attempt to get the largest amount for themselves. Therefore, the fairness of Communism must be forced on them. And the ones who will force it are the intellectual elite. So here we have established effectively a form of despotism, except that the despots are Communists. "Communist despot"??? Would that technically be an oxymoron?
So in the unrest after a revolution, the Communist must use force to gain absolute power, or otherwise, they will lose it to another group. Then again... Who can we trust with absolute power? Is there any person on earth who is capable of wielding it without being corrupted by it? If so, how can we find such a person and point him or her out?
Even if we can find a person who is interger enough, then we must also remember that Communism is a system that exists on paper. It was written by some people in their basement and expended upon by other people in their basement/study. Would it really work in practice, even if we can find someone who would stick to it, no matter what. In that case, would then also the person in power forget what the goal of the system was? It is to improve the conditions of all people. Always be wary of the point where the system itself becomes sacred. The point where the final goal is to implement Communism.
What all these points come down to:
True. History has never seen true Communism, but there is a reason for that. If someone were to try and implement it, it would inevitably boil down to something that resembles Leninism, Stalinism, Maoism, etc. I would not mind the utopia that true Communism promises. But the reason why I oppose the system if because that goal is irrealistic and unreachable.
Now, as a final clarification to my point why you should not be a Communist if you are not a member of the Proletariate. That is because you would then have to be part of the "Intellectual Elite" who would then become the Despot. And second of all, how can you decide over a group of people who you don't know anything about. Do you honestly understand the world good enough to be worthy of judging it, if you have only seen it through a computer screen?
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Perception is everything.
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terje_the_ma...
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
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posted May 05, 2005 05:46 PM |
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Quote:
What all these points come down to:
True. History has never seen true Communism, but there is a reason for that. If someone were to try and implement it, it would inevitably boil down to something that resembles Leninism, Stalinism, Maoism, etc. I would not mind the utopia that true Communism promises. But the reason why I oppose the system if because that goal is irrealistic and unreachable.
That's why I'm a Social Democrat, and not some weirdo revolutionary Marxist.
Quote:
Now, as a final clarification to my point why you should not be a Communist if you are not a member of the Proletariate. That is because you would then have to be part of the "Intellectual Elite" who would then become the Despot. And second of all, how can you decide over a group of people who you don't know anything about. Do you honestly understand the world good enough to be worthy of judging it, if you have only seen it through a computer screen?
Well, the Communist society is aimed at bettering the situation of the entire people, not just the proletariat. The proletariat was just supposed to be a tool for the creation of this society, for seriously, when did you last see intellectuals and writers overthrow an entire social system on their own? 
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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Conan
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted May 05, 2005 05:55 PM |
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Quote:
What all these points come down to:
True. History has never seen true Communism, but there is a reason for that. If someone were to try and implement it, it would inevitably boil down to something that resembles Leninism, Stalinism, Maoism, etc. I would not mind the utopia that true Communism promises. But the reason why I oppose the system if because that goal is irrealistic and unreachable.
irrealistic today, yes. Unreachable in the future? No. We must have confidence in human kind and try to do our best to reach this "utopia".
Indeed, that is why I consider myself a socialist and not a communist.
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Your life as it has been is over. From this time forward, you will service.... us. - Star Trek TNG
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