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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: United States President: 2008
Thread: United States President: 2008 [ This thread is 90 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 (16) 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 ]
roy-algriffin
roy-algriffin


Supreme Hero
Chocolate ice cream zealot
posted September 26, 2007 03:50 AM

Quote:
Quote:
, when in reality that can't do 95% of it because the president doesn't have the power to do it.


/off topic
Quote:
the president in particular is very much a figurehead,- he wields no real power whatsoever. he is apparantly chosen by the people, but the qualities he is required to display are not those of leadership, but of finely judged outrage
(being thrown at him)
Haha sorry couldnt help it, Love that damned book
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Consis
Consis


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
posted September 27, 2007 11:14 PM

Hmm...

It seems we have an interesting development. And, "No", it isn't because some rich white guys wouldn't debate at a black forum. It is John Edwards. He is seeking to change the rules of the game as Howard Dean once did. How very interesting this has come to be. Once again we find ourselves faced with a question of whom to take money from.
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Peacemaker
Peacemaker


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
posted September 30, 2007 01:37 PM
Edited by Peacemaker at 13:41, 30 Sep 2007.

Well well...

Just popping my head in from working on the campaign my every waking moment, and look what I find.

I must say, despite a pretty significant volume of misinformation being tossed about here and there, it's really heartening to see you folks all actually engaged in this level of debate.  Even more remarkable is that Wolfman's back on the scene, and nobody's sniping at anybody!  Congratulations to all of you!

This is what Democracy is all about:  debate.  But I must admonish all of you that the concept is only truly effective if the debate is well-informed...

First of all, Hello, my young friend Wolf!!!  It's been so long!!!  Thanks for your kind words and it's good to see you in the fray here.

Second of all, hello my sweet friend violent flower -- did you and the Gootch get my messages on Friday night yet?  I have missed you guys and hope I can persuade you to get involved at the precinct level.

Third of all, Consis -- You darling.  You're reading the book like you said you would.  Problem is, you began commenting on it before you actually finished it -- and thus before, the thought behind the book was complete, and therefore, before you realized that identity confusion Obama was experiencing and grappling with in the book was actually precisely what he was trying to confront and resolve.  

Far from representing that Obama is trying to be something he's not; what you are seeing but failing to hear or realize, is that he was grappling during those young years with the very thing you identified that he was grappling with -- being from two different worlds, with two different paradigms, histories, and sets of experience, and feeling like a forced fit in either of them -- until his maturity and sense of human compassion and unity finally overrode this smaller issue as he grew up.  Speaking from personal experience, resolving such an identity issue is far from simple, and the fact that he actually accomplished it in such grand style is one of the things I admire most in him.  Also remember:  That book was published nearly twelve years ago; and further growth into his present self has of course occurred, as it continues to do with all of us as we grow older.

On being Hawaiian:  I presume you mean as a member of the State of Hawaii; not part of the Hawaiian People.  In that sense he is not in fact Hawaiian.  He ended up in the South Side of Chicago because he identified it as one of the places in the United State most desperately in need of his grassroots organizing skill sets.  There was no such phenomenon to that degree in Hawaii at the time, so he moved to Chicago where he was needed most, and where he was offered the organizing job.  By the time he ran for Congress, Chicago had long since become his home and he was in the State Senate at the time. But of course, you found fault with that as well.  If he'd remained in Hawaii you might have found fault with him not going into the inner city where he was really needed.  

Thing is, you can't seem to see that you're just poking around trying desperately to find fault with his every move, and are spreading alot of disinformation in the process.  In fact several things you have said in your recent posts are completely opposite of the reality they intend to represent.

More in a few minutes.   I'm just getting started.  I've been working non-stop for over a month and just decided to take the day off and give my brain-turned-hamburger some recovery time.  So of course, what do I choose to do...?  (LOL)
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Peacemaker
Peacemaker


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
posted September 30, 2007 02:11 PM
Edited by Peacemaker at 15:01, 30 Sep 2007.

Well well... part deux

Okay, let's see. Where was I?

Oh, yes.

On Consis' characterizations of Obama...

Your perpetual portrayals of Obama continue to try to narrow his philosophy, spheres of influence, and general abilities.  The notion that his greatest (implied only) strength and/or intent lies in some sort of ambassadorhip on behalf of Africa, just because he has African blood and went there to meet his family and learn more about his ancestry in his thirties, flies in the face of everything this guy stands for.  It sort-of reminds me of a certain comment a while back by another member that Attorney General Gonzales couldn't be terribly conservative; after all he's "Mexican."  Or was it that Condi Rice couldn't be too conservative; after all; she's Black...

Your own incessant focus on on Obama's race belies your absolute inability/unwillingness to objectively assess the larger reality: his race bears virtually no relevance to his abilitites, loyalties or intentions, except for those regarding the human race.  You and many others don't seem to have gotten over that issue, despite that he did long ago.  All one need do is listen to his own words; for instance, a clip from the 2004 DNC Keynote Address that catapulted him into the national spotlight and is now considered one of the greatest speeches ever delivered in American history:

Quote:
My parents shared not only an improbable love; they shared an abiding faith in the possibilities of this nation. They would give me an African name, Barack, or "blessed," believing that in a tolerant America, your name is no barrier to success.

They imagined me going to the best schools in the land, even though they weren't rich, because in a generous America you don't have to be rich to achieve your potential...

And I stand here today grateful for the diversity of my heritage, aware that my parents' dreams live on in my two precious daughters.

I stand here knowing that my story is part of the larger American story, that I owe a debt to all of those who came before me, and that in no other country on Earth is my story even possible.

Tonight, we gather to affirm the greatness of our nation not because of the height of our skyscrapers, or the power of our military, or the size of our economy; our pride is based on a very simple premise, summed up in a declaration made over two hundred years ago: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal... that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

That is the true genius of America...

...It is that fundamental belief -- it is that fundamental belief -- I am my brother's keeper, I am my sisters' keeper -- that makes this country work.

It's what allows us to pursue our individual dreams, yet still come together as a single American family: "E pluribus unum," out of many, one.

Now even as we speak, there are those who are preparing to divide us, the spin masters and negative ad peddlers who embrace the politics of anything goes.

Well, I say to them tonight, there's not a liberal America and a conservative America; there's the United States of America.

There's not a black America and white America and Latino America and Asian America; there's the United States of America.

The pundits, the pundits like to slice and dice our country into red states and blue States: red states for Republicans, blue States for Democrats. But I've got news for them, too. We worship an awesome God in the blue states, and we don't like federal agents poking around our libraries in the red states.

We coach little league in the blue states and, yes, we've got some gay friends in the red states.

There are patriots who opposed the war in Iraq, and there are patriots who supported the war in Iraq.

We are one people, all of us pledging allegiance to the stars and stripes, all of us defending the United States of America...

Of course, as with any speech, the delivery is just as imporant as the words.  So once again, I present the link to the video for those of you who have joined this debate lately and have not yet had the chance to see it...

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/convention2004/barackobama2004dnc.htm.








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Peacemaker
Peacemaker


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
posted September 30, 2007 02:23 PM
Edited by Peacemaker at 15:29, 30 Sep 2007.

Well well... part troix

Now, Wolfman...

Quote:
Iraq:
Everyone wants the troops to come home, he doesn’t deny that.  But, he also realizes, unlike a lot of Democrats it seems to me, that if we do pull the troops home then Iraq will most certainly fall into civil war.  The Kurds will break off in the north, the Sunnis and the Shiites will be fighting each other more than now.  With Iran coming in to help one side and probably Saudi Arabia coming in to help the other side, it just wouldn’t be a good situation...  

Well done.  That just about sizes it up.  Fact is, people are reasoning that going in was a mistake, and so staying in is a mistake.  But a precipitous withdrawal from a situation that is destabilized because we destabilized it is perhaps even worse than going in to begin with.  It's not only irresponsible, but truly the most dangerous thing we could do at this point.  

You can't cut open a patient, start digging around for a tumor, and then walk away and leave them hanging open and bleeding just because you were wrong about there being a tumor.  

In this case, if the patient dies and Iraq crumbles, it is only the beginning of a vastly more devastating regional collapse.  If the U.S. thinks it was threatened with terrorist forces seeping over its borders before, it will get the shock to end all shocks if the Middle East deteriorates as Wolf has prophetically described above.  9/11 will look like a picnic.  You other Dems may not like it.  Neither do I.  Like it or not, it is what it is.  We HAVE to do SOMETHING to stabilize the region before simply leaving the patient hanging open and bleeding to death.

Quote:
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Israel-Palestine: Stop intervening there. It only causes problems. Just let them sort out their own problems. Medium

I don't even care what happens there, the whole thing sucks.

I urge you to look further into this.  It is widely and accurately considered by those most affected to be the primary root cause of anti-Western sentiments leading to terrorist actions against the West.
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Abortions: Pro-choice. Medium

I'm pro-life more for a responsibility standpoint than a religious one.  If you are going to have sex, do it safe, if you don't you're an idiot.  Accidents do happen, but if you have sex you know that is always a possibility.  If you create a child killing it is cowardly.  Own up to what you did and take care of it.  It could be the next Einstein.

I applaud your measured and qualified, response here!  I don't completely agree with your conclusion, but you're being very reasonable in your analysis and statement concerning responsibility...
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Stem-cell research: Support. Medium

Agreed.

Once again -- not towing the party line!  Excellent!
Quote:
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Environment and alternate energy: Expand nuclear power. More research towards nuclear fusion. Medium

There needs to be more done than that.  Nuclear power can't fuel my car, especially not cheaply.

You're on your way, Wolf.
Quote:
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Gay marriage: Marriage = civil union + church ceremony. Pro-civil union, ceremony for churches to decide. Low

Gay marriage, I'm against.  Civil-unions, go for it.  Marriage is between a man and a woman, but I don't see why gays shouldn't get the same breaks and treatment as married couples as far as the laws go, but they are not married.  It's a language thing.

Alright, who kidnapped Wolfman and put you in his place?  BRAVO.
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Minimum wage: abolish completely. High

What?  I'd like to see some reasoning behind a lot of these.  If there wasn't a minimum wage, I'd be getting paid a lot less than I am now.

Mainly it's a free-market issue.  Those who call for the abolishment of the minimum wage are Smithian economists who believe the free market should drive wages, not an artificial bottom-line figure.  However, as you yourself apparently have experienced, pure capitalism only works in theory based on an equal playing field, similarly to pure communisim.  In the end I agree with you that its abolition is a bad idea.


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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 30, 2007 02:50 PM

Its abolition is a good idea because then businesses would be able to hire more people and unemployment would drop, and they wouldn't need to hire illegal immigrants as much. And the wage would be a living wage, because businesses can't have their workers starving, can they?
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roy-algriffin
roy-algriffin


Supreme Hero
Chocolate ice cream zealot
posted September 30, 2007 03:05 PM

they can. in the theoretical situation that there will always be more unemployed people to fill the ranks. If it gets enough people hired thats good.But if theres still unemployment and the only thing thats changed is that people are getting less wages then its a disaster.

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Peacemaker
Peacemaker


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
posted September 30, 2007 03:13 PM

Part 4

Now for Binabik (Hi there Bin!!!)

Quote:
They go around talking about all this stuff they will do, when in reality that can't do 95% of it because the president doesn't have the power to do it. Somebody needs to remind these people that Congress can tell the president what to do and he has to do it. But the President can only nicely ask Congress "please, please, please let me do what I want" and if Congress happens to be in a good mood they might say "OK just this once, but you have to eat your vegies first". 95% of these promises are about LEGISLATION which is the job of whom?  Hmmm, three choices, the executive branch, legislative branch or judicial branch. Tough one that.
Well. not quite.  Bush, for example, has vetoed practically every bill coming his way lately.  He's clearly still in charge here because Congress is still too closely matched to garner an override vote.  It's more complicated than that; depends on the structure at a given point in time.

If you have a president who is a uniter and can get people to work together, a remarkable amount of progress can be made as history shows.  This is the main problem with Hillary:  Half the Congress hates her guts just as much as half the Congress hates Bush right now.  As long as things remain divided, nothing of substance will change; in that part you're right.  

Obama, on the other hand, is universally respected among Congress on both sides of the isle, and has shown an exceptional degree of skill as a unifier and getting people who wouldn't otherwise even look at each other to wkr together.  The entire mood of the rooom changes when he walks in.  He's phenomenal. His chances at substantial change on the Hill far outstrip those of any of the other candidates, particularly Hillary Clinton, is is a notoriously divisive presence despite her own best efforts.

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 30, 2007 03:41 PM

Quote:
they can. in the theoretical situation that there will always be more unemployed people to fill the ranks. If it gets enough people hired thats good.But if theres still unemployment and the only thing thats changed is that people are getting less wages then its a disaster.


A lot of unemployed people can't work, so wouldn't be affected by this in the first place. And if the US had a stronger economy (and this would strenghten it), more workers would be necessary.
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Wolfman
Wolfman


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
posted September 30, 2007 04:27 PM
Edited by Wolfman at 16:28, 30 Sep 2007.

Quote:
Now, Wolfman...

Well done.  That just about sizes it up.  Fact is, people are reasoning that going in was a mistake, and so staying in is a mistake.  But a precipitous withdrawal from a situation that is destabilized because we destabilized it is perhaps even worse than going in to begin with.  It's not only irresponsible, but truly the most dangerous thing we could do at this point.  

You can't cut open a patient, start digging around for a tumor, and then walk away and leave them hanging open and bleeding just because you were wrong about there being a tumor.  

In this case, if the patient dies and Iraq crumbles, it is only the beginning of a vastly more devastating regional collapse.  If the U.S. thinks it was threatened with terrorist forces seeping over its borders before, it will get the shock to end all shocks if the Middle East deteriorates as Wolf has prophetically described above.  9/11 will look like a picnic.  You other Dems may not like it.  Neither do I.  Like it or not, it is what it is.  We HAVE to do SOMETHING to stabilize the region before simply leaving the patient hanging open and bleeding to death.


I'm glad you agree.  People that don't see this are either ignorant, or just want to disagree with it over philosophical principals.  But, principals are not going to solve the problem.

Quote:
Quote:
Israel-Palestine: Stop intervening there. It only causes problems. Just let them sort out their own problems. Medium

I don't even care what happens there, the whole thing sucks.

I urge you to look further into this.  It is widely and accurately considered by those most affected to be the primary root cause of anti-Western sentiments leading to terrorist actions against the West.


What's to look into?  I'm sick of both sides whining about what the other side is doing.  The Palestinians whine about Israeli soldiers shooting kids.  Maybe if you would tell your kids not to throw rocks and stuff at the soldiers, there would be no problem there.  The Israelis are mad because the Palestinians blow up their citizens which leads to more soldiers.  This of course, leads to more rocks being thrown, more kids dead, more bombs killing civilians in response and then more soldiers and roadblocks.  It's a ridiculous cycle and I'm tired of it.  Heh heh...maybe if Iran did nuke Israel it would solve that problem.  Neither side would be around to worry.

Quote:
Quote:
Abortions: Pro-choice. Medium

I'm pro-life more for a responsibility standpoint than a religious one.  If you are going to have sex, do it safe, if you don't you're an idiot.  Accidents do happen, but if you have sex you know that is always a possibility.  If you create a child killing it is cowardly.  Own up to what you did and take care of it.  It could be the next Einstein.

I applaud your measured and qualified, response here!  I don't completely agree with your conclusion, but you're being very reasonable in your analysis and statement concerning responsibility...


Thanks

Quote:
Quote:
Stem-cell research: Support. Medium

Agreed.

Once again -- not towing the party line!  Excellent!


When have I ever specifically "towed the party line"?  

Quote:
Quote:
Environment and alternate energy: Expand nuclear power. More research towards nuclear fusion. Medium

There needs to be more done than that.  Nuclear power can't fuel my car, especially not cheaply.

You're on your way, Wolf.


On my way where exactly?  I hope you don't intend to tell me I'm going to be a liberal.  

Quote:
Quote:
Gay marriage: Marriage = civil union + church ceremony. Pro-civil union, ceremony for churches to decide. Low

Gay marriage, I'm against.  Civil-unions, go for it.  Marriage is between a man and a woman, but I don't see why gays shouldn't get the same breaks and treatment as married couples as far as the laws go, but they are not married.  It's a language thing.

Alright, who kidnapped Wolfman and put you in his place?  BRAVO.


No one kidnapped me.  I've had this feeling for years.  It's just a shame that if someone asks if you support gay marriage and you say no, they freak out about you not wanting gays to have the same rights as heterosexuals.  They don't seem to ever give you the chance t say why you feel that way.  It's a language thing for me and it's disrespectful for it to be called marriage in my opinion.

So when are you going to add me to MSN so we can get caught up?  Email has changed though...
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Consis
Consis


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
posted September 30, 2007 04:49 PM
Edited by Consis at 16:55, 30 Sep 2007.

Peacemaker,

No that is not the case. Obama has so completely entrenched himself with such a specific ethnicity that he has become almost entirely alienated from the hispanic community, of whom many prefer to be called Latino.

I feel it is wrong for him to invoke his father's name. His father played no part in raising him. His father's story really is as amazing as it sounds but when he chose to get a lady pregnant in Hawaii and then leave to Africa....well that's the end of what could have been a beautiful marriage. When Obama(jr.) went back to Africa he was well received and it seemed to me that he was accepted into their family but neither does that tie him to those people or their culture or their plight. Yet still he is consistently choosing to invoke his African heritage. He is a man who has spent his entire life chasing after the image created by his own mind of his father and what he believes that image represents to him. In fact he has more than proven himself America's greatest future champion for the salvation of Africa due to his lifelong pursuit of his father. HE DID ALL THAT BY HIS HONORABLE ACTIONS AND NOT HIS ANCESTRY! It is because of these choices that I admire him and so do many other Americans. It is because of those choices that the long severed American black feels so uneasy when looking to vote for him. This is why Oprah has turned to him. This is why white christian conservatives believe in him. He will be the one American who can save Africa. We Americans want to save the world. We want to a righteous people and country. This is what we think God wants us to do. I went to church today and guess what is being added to almost every sermon as of late? Our church has taken up a crusade to help Kenyans and so every sunday we are shown pictures of homeless, dying, starving Kenyan children. I have only gone to my church. I have not been to any other churches and yet I know, somehow unexplainably, that many other churches in this country are doing the same for many different African countries. We want to help those human beings who are suffering greatly. I believe Obama is the one person who can get past the troublesome american blacks and their constant whining, bickering, and infighting to help us all join together and fulfill former president Bill Clinton's greatest regret.

And all that is wholly directed at saving lives in Africa. But Africa is only one continent on this planet. There is so much more going on in the world. Not exclusive to Africa is the almost global plight of women....which is an even larger problem than A.I.D.S. in Africa. More couples raising a child should have one parent work and the other stay home. Why is 90% of the entire world being raised by single mothers?
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Peacemaker
Peacemaker


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
posted October 02, 2007 10:52 AM
Edited by Peacemaker at 10:53, 02 Oct 2007.

Hi Consis.

It is becoming inceasingly apparent that you are neither listening to me nor paying attention to the Obama campaign.  You continue to attribute things that others are laying on Obama to Obama himself (like all this Kenya stuff, and that he has somehow become beholden to one peoples' issues).

Neither is true, no matter how many ways you try to make it so with your rhetoric.  In fact it is precisely the opposite of the reality.  YOU and others are the ones doing that stuff, not Obama.  Anyone who knows the platform knows that is true, and that you are completely mischaracterizing the real situation.  It's just a shame that most Americans believe everything they read without further inquiry, and they will read your material here and think it is fact.

This is MISINFORMATION, my friend.  It's called SPIN.  Have a little integrity, for pity's sake.  If you want to re-engage in real Democracy then break that nasty habit.  Stop following your Congress as a role model; they're the problem.  You are acting just like them.
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Wolfman
Wolfman


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
posted October 02, 2007 12:20 PM

Guys, just cool it.  neither of you is going to make any headway in your direction.  Peacemaker is going to vote for Obama because of the issues he stands for.  Consis is not going to vote for him because he's black...hmmm interesting.  In my opinion Obama is better than Clinton, but I still don't want him for my president, he just doesn't stand for the same things I do.

We all know that I'd make the best president.
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Consis
Consis


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
posted October 02, 2007 12:21 PM
Edited by Consis at 12:23, 02 Oct 2007.

Peacemaker,

No I am not! I am not spreading misinformation! Listen I checked out that community service thing that he did and I learned he was entrenched with far too many people who largely thought of themselves as black nationalists. I'm not making this stuff up! That's why folks are cautious to take that LEAP OF FAITH that you and many other Obama concert fans are doing.

The truth is he is one of the very few and rare individuals who can actually stand up to american black nationalists without being called a racist. It is so taboo a subject for many 'white' americans that it almost seems like these people have cornered the market on issues of race!!!! Many feel they can't say a single word about it without some angry black person screaming racist. (look at what happened to me even in here) And guess what happens when they do scream it? The white guy/lady goes silent and can't continue to speak while the anger monger feels emboldened and the onlooking hispanic/other ethnicity stands there laughing at the white person and indignant at the angry black person. Was one word of consideration said about their plight? Why should black people get the last word on race?

The problem is Obama's approach to his campaign. Because of his campaign approach people don't realize what his future as president would represent. To be honest, he seems very much afraid to come right out and say it. This man is the greatest hope for American salvation in Africa. We want to get back on that moral high ground after Iraq. But he is afraid to come out of his tactical strategy for campaigning and declare to the world the he alone can bring America back to one of its most historical roots: African heritage. I was convinced he could bring in upper class elitists by his role at Harvard. I was convinced he could keep those black nationalists in check by his careful mediation regarding Altgeld. You see before I read this book I didn't know Chicago was a 'split' city. I didn't know there were people in Chicago who were afraid to cross some imaginary geographic racial boundary line. Because of what I've seen Obama do as a senator I am convinced that he should should run for Mayor or Governor. If he did then I would seriously consider him for President. Only then could we truly see what he is capable of in an office such as President of the United States. If he did make Mayor or Governor and decided to run for President I would want to see how he managed such a divided city. That's where his best presidential attributes can be found in my opinion.

But the time is right. Recognition that Women of all ages all around the world are no better or worse than their male counterparts. With the rising power of Islamic fundamentalism all over the world, including Africa, we need to send a message that women have rights too. That kind of message would also be imparted to those few christian fundamentalists as well. It is time the world stopped abusing women. It is time men took a more active role in raising children. It is time for a more loving human race that is less judgmental and more tolerant of different peoples.
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Wolfman
Wolfman


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
posted October 02, 2007 12:35 PM

We posted at the same time, Consis.

Quote:
The truth is he is one of the very few and rare individuals who can actually stand up to american black nationalists without being called a racist. It is so taboo a subject for many 'white' americans that it almost seems like these people have cornered the market on issues of race!!!! Many feel they can't say a single word about it without some angry black person screaming racist. (look at what happened to me even in here) And guess what happens when they do scream it? The white guy/lady goes silent and can't continue to speak while the anger monger feels emboldened and the onlooking hispanic/other ethnicity stands there laughing at the white person and indignant at the angry black person. Was one word of consideration said about their plight? Why should black people get the last word on race?


This is exactly right, look at Bill O'Reilly in just the past week or so.  After he was labeled a racist for something innocent and truthful aimed at stimulating debate (which I suppose he did) he brought Jesse Jackson on his show which was an interesting interview.  Jackson acknowledged that what he said we indeed not racist.  O'Reilly was talking about perceptions that many white people have for blacks and was demonized for it in the press, especially CNN.  
There cannot be honest debate on teh subject of race relations in this country because anyone who points out the deterioration of the "black family" is suddenly a racist.  Parenting is important in raising your children, period, there is no race issue here.
This is Why Bill Cosby is my favorite black man.
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Consis
Consis


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
posted October 02, 2007 05:31 PM
Edited by Consis at 17:32, 02 Oct 2007.

America, The Bold

1. Wouldn't it be cool if Americans could say, "We saved Africa"

2. Wouldn't it be cool if Americans could say, "We inspired all the women in the world to go to school"
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Mytical
Mytical

Hero of Order
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted October 03, 2007 06:05 AM

Before this becomes about something other then the presidential race, here is something to consider.

America has been in crisis mode for awhile.  Other nations do not like America, for whatever reason (some justified, some not).  While the President holds limited power, they are seen as the embodiment of America.  Though I believe any of them can do just as good as job as the other..it is about perceptions.  As long as the status quo is upheld (ie another rich white male), the perceptions have no chance to change.  Unless by some miricle he happens to have the charisma of JFK and other attributes of those we consider our best presidents combined.

Now this is just opinon, and I could be way off the mark here, but we need to change these perceptions.  That leaves 2 possibilities.  Obama and Clinton.  Personally I am just not sure about another Clinton.  So obviously I would choose Obama.  However, that leads to a whole different problem.  Not because of Obama, because of my logic in arriving at Obama.  Process of elimination.  Not because he has the best stance, not because he stands for what I do, but just because he is not Clinton.  That should never be the reason why you choose a canidate.

Now I am going to make some very unpopular statements.  It may upset a lot of you, so please take this as a warning.  I am a very opinonated person, even if I try to keep an open mind, and the following is not meant to represent anything but MY opinon.

First, I think America should withdrawl from everywhere we have military presence, but American soil.  Period.  We are not the worlds police nor are we it's protectors.  We have enough problems of our own right now.  Other countries want us out, lets give them what they want.  Total, complete withdrawl.  This will not happen, because of oil concerns.  That is all it is about..sorry to say.  Feel free to dissagree with that.

Second, lower minimum wage, but put in place price caps for goods and services.  Every penny saved by lower minimum wage should be passed on to consumers.  This will not happen either, because then Americas have gotten to soft (including me).

Third, legalize drugs and prostitution, then tax it.  We are loosing the war, might as well make some profit off of it.  Cuts down on wasted prison space, increases our tax base, and puts the money our pocket instead of organized crimes.  This won't happen, because organized crime won't let it happen.

Spend all the billions we were putting to war on alternative energy.  Eliminate our need for oil.  This won't happen because the oil companies won't let it.  If you think Bush (who owns oil fields) has not made huge profits off the war..I got a bridge in brooklyn I can sell for cheap.

Monitor all people who are in the government (congress, president, ect).  24/7.  All money exchanging hands should be immediately reported on national TV.  Won't happen, but hey.

I know a lot of people will now think I am a conspiricy nut, or just a nut, or such.  That's ok.  I probably am.
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mvassilev
mvassilev


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posted October 03, 2007 07:58 AM

Mytical, I like your ideas except for the price caps. I'm not sure if we should legalize prostitution, and I think that we should do away with the minimum wage completely.
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Vlaad
Vlaad


Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
posted October 04, 2007 09:26 PM

Not that I've read the entire thread, but...

Any comments on this Gallup poll (Democrats and pro-Democrats only)? Populism, anyone...?

Where Clinton's support is strongest:

annual household income < 30, 000: Clinton 70%, Obama 27%

65 and older: Clinton 69%, Obama 26%

high school education or less: Cliton 67%, Obama 29%

Blacks: Clinton 62%, Obama 34%

women: Clinton 62%, Obama 34%

Where Obama's support is strongest:

annual household income > 75,000: Clinton 47%, Obama 47%

postgraduate degree: Clinton 49%, Obama 45%

very liberal: Clinton 52%, Obama 44%

18-to-29-year-olds: Clinton 54%, Obama 43%

graduates: Clinton 51%, Obama 41%

pro-Democrat independents: Clinton 55%, Obama 41%

men: Clinton 56%, Obama 39%

TOTAL

Clinton 59%
Obama 36%

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Binabik
Binabik


Responsible
Legendary Hero
posted October 04, 2007 09:33 PM

Bah, polls! The best polls are the frozen kind you stick your tongue to.

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