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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: United States President: 2008
Thread: United States President: 2008 [ This thread is 90 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 (31) 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 ]
Peacemaker
Peacemaker


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
posted February 17, 2008 08:39 PM
Edited by Peacemaker at 20:47, 17 Feb 2008.

You must hve been adding to your post while I was posting.  As for the rest:

Quote:
Quote:
No. 1  OBAMA OUTPOLLS THE REPUBLICAN CANDIDATES IN MOST OF THE GENERAL ELECTION TRIAL HEATS.


We should vote for those we agree with, not jump on the bandwagon.
I'm not suggesting a "bandwagon" approach.  I'm suggesting an approach that strategically avoids losing the general election as we did in 2004.  Take it in context; read the rest of the item.


Quote:
Quote:

No. 2  OBAMA IS UNIQUELY QUALIFIED AND POSITIONED TO ELIMINATE THE CURRENT PARTISAN CONGRESSIONAL STAND-OFF.

And being rated the most liberal Senator is going to help him... how?
That's one of the big differences between Obama and nearly all the others.  Clinton will be the same character as president as she is as a senator.  Right now both of them behave like senators and represent the constituencies that elected  them.  Those constituencies are primarily liberal.  Here's the big differences;  THEY'RE NOT RUNNING FOR THE SENATE.  Obama WILL take on the role as president, of the entire country.  We haven't had a president do that for some time, one of the main reasons we've become so divided.  Once again, take it in context.  He will serve the role as President of the United States, not President of the Democratic Party.

Please read this link:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/18/opinion/18brooks.html?_r=1&oref=slogin


Quote:
Quote:
Obama is widely known in Congress as a consensus builder with unique skills in depolarization.


So is McCain.
Agreed.  Not so for Clinton.  The real question here is do you want a Republican uniter or a Democratic one.  Many are at a toss up at this point.  I'd love it if I had a general election ballot where I had to toss a coin, not because I disliked both candidates, but because I liked both of them.

Quote:
Quote:
No. 3  OBAMA POSSESSES THE GREATEST POTENTIAL FOR SUCCESSFUL INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMACY.


Well, I wouldn't go that far.
I would.  I've been watching this guy since late 2002.  Have you?  (See my first response posted above)

Quote:
Quote:
No. 4    OBAMA WRITES HIS OWN SPEECHES.

WOW. Most important issue ever. Knocked me off my feet, this did.[/sarcasm]
LOL!  I guess some of us are more impressed with that than others....


Quote:
6 reasons not to support Barack Obama.

1. He supports raising the minimum wage.
This will hurt our workers and raise unemployment and actually cause jobs to go overseas.
Complex issue.  You have a point, but we also have a cost-of-living issue tha has to be addressed somehow...

Quote:
2. He wants to make it illegal to hire striking workers.
To borrow Ross Perot's phrase and put it in a different context, "Giant sucking sound." Hear that? It's the jobs moving overseas.
Same response as above.  I don't know a whole lot about this issue yet to I will reserve a detailed response.

Quote:
3. He wants amnesty.
This is basically rewarding the illegal immigrants for breaking the law.
The word "amnesty" is pretty misleading here.  His position is a lot more complex than that.  I think you've actually oversimplified quite a few of your topics here, which makes them misleading (once again, the problem with soundbites).  What's your plan?  Round them up and bus them back?

Quote:
4. He says he'd bomb Pakistan without their permission.
Way to hurt our image worldwide even more..
This is just really a misleading sentence taken out of context.  That's not what he said.  He said that if he knew where Bin Laden was he'd go in through the border and get him.  No plans to bomb, invade, stay, destabilize.  It's precisely the same kind of thing many other presidents have covertly done in the past, some successfully, some not given the context.  It's the same kind of thing Powell could have successfully, quietly pulled off.  You're selling this one way short, baby.

Quote:
5. He wants to lengthen the school year.
Our school year is long enough. We need a fundamental change in our education system, and this isn't it.
don't know about this one either... but I'll tell you one thing, my son for one (and I know some others) would benefit from a few more weeks' time to master what these kids have to master in today's environment.  Sorry you don't like it.  It is what it is.

Quote:
6. He doesn't really understand foreign policy.
Namely, he doesn't understand that our actions in the Middle East caused 9/11.
Wow.  This came clear out of left field.  WRONG.  He's understood that from the very beginning.  Where ever did you get this idea?

I have to leave in a few minutes so if I don't reply to a response to all this, then that's why.

Nice sparring with you mvass!!!
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Peacemaker
Peacemaker


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
posted February 17, 2008 08:50 PM

One more comment mvass:

You're simply talking through your hat when you say the healthcare solution doesn't have to be complicated.  Forgive me, you are underinformed and incorrect on this one.  It's one of the most complicated issues we face today in the United States.  Inform me more fully of your expertise in this area, set forth your simple solution and I will revisit my response.   Until then, it's merely a vacuous claim on your part.
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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
HC SUPPORTER
posted February 17, 2008 08:56 PM
Edited by mvassilev at 02:28, 18 Feb 2008.

Well, you don't see me supporting Hillary, now do you?

Quote:
cost-of-living issue
If we elliminate the minimum wage, the cost of products will go down. If the cost of products will go down, the cost of living will go down.

Quote:
The word "amnesty" is pretty misleading here.
Does he want to give people who came here illegally legal status? Then it's amnesty.

Quote:
What's your plan?  Round them up and bus them back?
A guest worker program that's easy to get into. They would be able to live here permenantly, but they could apply for a temporary worker program, along with other people who want to.

Quote:
Hhat's not what he said.  He said that if he know where Bin Laden was he'd go into through the border and get him.
Without Pakistan's permission. It's arrogant, and one of the reasons we're hated in the Middle East.

Quote:
but I'll tell you one thing, my son for one (and I know some others) would benefit from a few more weeks' time to master what these kids have to master in today's environment.
I'll tell you one thing, as someone who is in the education system right now. My elementary school years were 90% wasted. My middle school years were 85% wasted. And my high school years are 75% wasted. The kids barely have to master anything in today's environment. The pace is extremely slow. If what you cover in 8th grade is almost the same thing you cover in 4th grade, there is something seriously wrong with the system.

Quote:
Wow.  This came clear out of left field.  WRONG.  He's understood that from the very beginning.  Where ever did you get this idea?
I've never heard him say it. I went on his web site and it doesn't say it. But it does say this:
Quote:
Support Foreign Assistance to Israel: Barack Obama has consistently supported foreign assistance to Israel. He defends and supports the annual foreign aid package that involves both military and economic assistance to Israel
which is part of what got us into trouble in the first place.

Quote:
set forth your simple solution
Here it is: the Mvass health care plan:
Problem:
1. We know that the government is expensive and inefficient.
2. We know that the current system is unacceptable because costs keep rising because the people with insurance have no incentive to care how much their actual health care costs. Thus, the doctors charge a lot and the insurance companies have to raise their rates. So less people can afford insurance.

Solution:
Make health insurance illegal.

Yes, you read that right.
Make private citizens pay from their pocketbook for all of their medical expenses. This will encourage them to shop around and get the best care for the money, and there would be no overhead costs from the insurance company. Then there arises another problem. Health care would be too expensive for many anyway. Solution: Have the government pay for a certain percentage (but not 100%) of all health care costs. The percentage would vary depending on the cost of the procedure and the individual's income.

Nice sparring with you!

bort:
Quote:
This legend of McCain as a maverick baffles me.
He disagrees with Bush on issues other than torture.
1. The environment. McCain opposes drilling in the Alaska National Wildlife Refuge.
2. Spending. McCain voted against the Bush tax cuts for the rich.
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Mytical
Mytical

Hero of Order
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted February 18, 2008 05:57 AM
Edited by Mytical at 08:14, 18 Feb 2008.

The only thing I want to address here is the minimum wage arguement.  Yes, if minimum wage was lowered, cost of production would be lowered.  That is a given.  However, the general cost would not go down as much as the wages were lowered.  For instance, all the outsourced jobs (where they pay pennies on the dollar).  Has this driven cost that much down?  Nope.  Why?  Because businesses are in Business to make money.  So if they can lower their cost and keep prices the same, you better bet they will.

Heck I would have no problem making 10% of what I do now, if everything cost only 10% of what it does now.  That would not be the case however.  If you got rid of minimum wage, prices would drop, but not near what wages would.  If they saved 90% of production cost, the cost to everybody would drop maybe half that.  The only people making any money at all would be the already rich. They have proved this by not lowering prices that much when given tax breaks for outsourcing (which reduced their cost even more).

I don't know how to currently fix the situation.  If you start charging tarriffs, other countries would also, and probably ban american goods to boot.  Start charging companies that outsource, they probably will move all their business overseas.  We need to find a way to close the gap a little between haves and have nots.

Edit : Thanks.  I have really been looking into Obama's stance on certain things now.  The more I read, the more I like.  Now I can't say I agree with everything, and it will take me some time to do proper research, but I have to say that what I have read so far is amazing.

So far, what I agree with.  
Civil Rights
Though not absolutely sure about "Reduce Crime Recidivism by Providing Ex-Offender Support" would like to know more.

Economy
Pretty much all of this I agree on.

Energy
Some interesting ideas.

Ethics
Could NOT agree more with this.  We NEED something like this bad.

Fiscal

So far these are the ones I've looked into. Like what I see so far.
Don't get me wrong.  I know that a lot cant be done, he won't have the power, but if he can achieve even a portion of this, he will be one of the greats.
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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
HC SUPPORTER
posted February 18, 2008 02:25 PM

Quote:
Has this driven cost that much down?
Yes, it definitely has.
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Consis
Consis


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
posted February 18, 2008 03:30 PM

Two Points:

1. I don't think Mvass is over simplifying anything at all. I think he makes very good points. And that is, no doubt, why you felt the need to respond to his remarks Peacemaker. His intelligent debate is worth responding to because it does appear that he has been doing his homework.

2. Peacemaker is correct that healthcare is complex and not simple. This is the reason why: What heals one person may not heal another. A drug or medical procedure that might save the life of one person may indeed sound the death knell for another. Human beings are of the same species but it has been proven without question that for some strange reason each individual's body reacts differently to certain medications and prescribed procedures. If I give one patient who has a headache an aspirin and it makes her feel better and then decide the next patient with the same symptom ought to get one too.....and I don't take a medical history to check for allergies then I could very well kill that next patient. That is the simplicity of the complex healthcare system.

Insurance companies want to believe as you(Mvass) and many others do. They want to write it on paper and make it permanent to give all patients with headaches an aspirin. When someone comes along to get insurance who is allergic to aspirin.....what do the insurance companies do? They refuse to let them sign a contract.
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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
HC SUPPORTER
posted February 18, 2008 03:38 PM

But I want to abolish insurance companies.
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Moonlith
Moonlith


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
posted February 18, 2008 04:12 PM

Is America still as fearfull about  "Socialist"  systems such as free healthcare and the like? Just curious...

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OmegaDestroyer
OmegaDestroyer

Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
posted February 18, 2008 04:19 PM
Edited by OmegaDestroyer at 16:20, 18 Feb 2008.

If anything, the country is more concerned with the cost and quality of such a program.  The problem is, in order to provide free health care to our citizens, we'd have to raise taxes.  And no matter how good a program is, if you have to raise taxes to implement it, people will fight it tooth and nail.  For example, school milliages are usually placed on the ballot as a $5 increase in local taxes to help supplement school funding.  About 98% of the time, they fail.  The same happens with police and fire milliages.  People want the government to provide for more but are unwilling to help shoulder the burden.

As to the quality, you get what you pay for.  I don't know of anybody willing to abandon a private provider for a public provider.
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angelito
angelito

Hero of Order
proud father of a princess
posted February 18, 2008 04:28 PM

Quote:
Well, you don't see me supporting Hillary, now do you?

Quote:
cost-of-living issue
If we elliminate the minimum wage, the cost of products will go down. If the cost of products will go down, the cost of living will go down.
This is just soooo untrue, especially in a country where "Shareholder value" is nearly as important as the Ten Commandments.

"Strike" is (should be) a fundamental right of any worker. This makes "slavery" impossible. "Hire and fire" mentality doesn't fit in modern times anymore. (imo, it didn't fit at any time though...)
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The_Gootch
The_Gootch


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
posted February 18, 2008 04:36 PM
Edited by The_Gootch at 16:37, 18 Feb 2008.

Some form of universal healthcare is an inevitability.  It is an inevitability because

1.  With the boomers retiring, companies would love nothing more than to figure out a way to soften the blow of pensions.

2.  The U.S. competes with other countries that offer universal health care to their citizens.  Because of this, the corporations in those companies have lower overhead than U.S. companies do.  

Therefore, it is in the best interest of U.S. companies to encourage a universal healthcare plan so they may be more competitive in the world.  And when it is in corporate america's best interest for a policy to be enacted, well, guess what.



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OmegaDestroyer
OmegaDestroyer

Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
posted February 18, 2008 04:45 PM
Edited by OmegaDestroyer at 16:46, 18 Feb 2008.

I disagree.  You can't give the right to strike to certain employees.  Think of the consequences of allowing the military, postal service, police, airline workers, fire fighters, etc., to strike?  The nation would be crippled during such strikes.  And in recent times, strikes have been more damaging than helpful to an economy.  Look at Michigan.  The UAW called strike after strike, while noble in the beginning to secure better rights, slowly eroded into wanting more benefits for less work.  The constant striking is driving the automobile companies out of the state, leaving it with a large, uneducated work force.  The right to strike only made things worse for Michigan.  

Furthermore, employers should be allowed to contract for employees as they see fit.  If an interviewee signs a contract that states he or she may be terminated at the lesiure of the employee and he or she is fired, then it is their fault for signing a legally binding contract in the first place.  If the interviewee doesn't like the terms of a contract, they shouldn't sign it.
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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
HC SUPPORTER
posted February 18, 2008 05:11 PM

Quote:
Is America still as fearfull about  "Socialist"  systems such as free healthcare and the like? Just curious...
Socialism is harmful.

Quote:
This is just soooo untrue
Actually, it is true. And elliminating the minimum wage will drop unemployment.

Quote:
The U.S. competes with other countries that offer universal health care to their citizens.  Because of this, the corporations in those companies have lower overhead than U.S. companies do.
No one's going to outsource to Western Europe, Japan, or Australia.
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Moonlith
Moonlith


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
posted February 18, 2008 06:00 PM

The entire idea of "competivity" focussing on HEALTHCARE for the sake of profit is loathsome.

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
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HC SUPPORTER
posted February 18, 2008 06:23 PM

Competition breeds excellence.
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Andrelvis
Andrelvis


Adventuring Hero
posted February 18, 2008 06:29 PM
Edited by Andrelvis at 18:41, 18 Feb 2008.

Quote:
Actually, it is true. And elliminating the minimum wage will drop unemployment.


But is it any good though, to be employed without proper working conditions?

@OmegaDestroyer:
Quote:
Furthermore, employers should be allowed to contract for employees as they see fit.  If an interviewee signs a contract that states he or she may be terminated at the lesiure of the employee and he or she is fired, then it is their fault for signing a legally binding contract in the first place.  If the interviewee doesn't like the terms of a contract, they shouldn't sign it.


It's not that simple. Companies hold a far better position to bargain than the potential employee.

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
HC SUPPORTER
posted February 18, 2008 06:45 PM

Quote:
But is it any good though, to be employed without proper working conditions?
It's infinitely better than being unemployed.
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Moonlith
Moonlith


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
posted February 18, 2008 06:52 PM

Quote:
Competition breeds excellence.


Yes, we can definately see the proof of that statement in the excellence sprouting from the American healthcare system!

Is that your best argument? Or, wait, were you the biased pro-capitalism anti-socialism guy?

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Andrelvis
Andrelvis


Adventuring Hero
posted February 18, 2008 06:56 PM

Quote:
It's infinitely better than being unemployed.


Oh, it sure is, but the problem is that it reduces some unemployment to make the conditions worse for the whole of the workforce.


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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
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HC SUPPORTER
posted February 18, 2008 06:56 PM
Edited by mvassilev at 18:58, 18 Feb 2008.

The reason that the American health care system is a failure is because it isn't free market right now. The insurance companies are an impediment. People have no reason to look for the cheapest medical care for the quality.

And there is a reason why the standard of living in America is higher than in Europe.

And socialism fails. Just look at Sweden and compare it to the US.

Quote:
Oh, it sure is, but the problem is that it reduces some unemployment to make the conditions worse for the whole of the workforce.
No. People are paid what they're worth. So if people are paid at minimum wage right now, their wages won't go down, becuase they're worth what is now minimum wage and they will get paid what they're worth. But then people who are worth less than minimum wage will be able to find a job.

Why is HC a bunch of raging Bolsheviks?
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