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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: United States President: 2008
Thread: United States President: 2008 [ This thread is 90 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 (53) 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 ]
TitaniumAlloy
TitaniumAlloy


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
posted September 09, 2008 03:10 AM

Quote:
Quote:
Less oil use without adding to the food crisis.
Obama supports ethanol subsidies.

He is also conscious of the food crisis, however.
I maintain (and hope) that he will go about this delicate issue responsibly.
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OmegaDestroyer
OmegaDestroyer

Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
posted September 09, 2008 03:33 AM
Edited by OmegaDestroyer at 03:42, 09 Sep 2008.

Good Lord, I'm turning into Mvass...

Quote:

It's not modifying the constitution but rather supporting stricter gun control.
He supports banning semi-automatics, purchase restrictions and other laws such as outlawing concealed firearms.
"I think there is an individual right to bear arms, but it's subject to commonsense regulation."
-Obama, 2008.
Why do I care about gun policies in USA? Because I'm not a fan of innocent people getting shot when it could be avoided.


It doesn't matter whether he supports it or not.  The issue of what's to be done with guns is for Congress to decide.  And who shoots the innocent people?  Criminals and criminals will find a way to harm people with or without guns.  But let's not turn this into another gun debate.  I think we already have a thread for that.

Quote:

But the President is still involved in the declaration.


He can voice his opinion but it's ultimately up to Congres to act.

Quote:
Certainly not with McCain.
But it's not just US nuclear weapons, but a press for worldwide disarmament.


Be realistic.  It won't happen with this country and it won't happen with any others.  If anything, the US would say we are going to get rid of them and hoarde them away, just like everyone else would.

Quote:
Why shouldn't the USA goverment try to help fight the human rights atrocities and international law violations in Darfur. Or do you think it should continue?
As for Iraq, I'm not going to pretend I'm an expert, but change is needed, involving negotiations with neighbours such as Syria and Iran rather than just violating the UN's authority.
"The days of using the war on terror as a political football are over. [...] It is time to give Iraqis their country back, and it is time to refocus America's efforts on the wider struggle yet to be won."
-Obama, 2006.


Frankly, I really don't care what's going on Darfur.  Yeah, it's horrible, but if the US gets involved people are just going to complain we're meddling in someone else's affairs.  And you never answered my question.  Why doesn't Australia get involved?  Why does it fall upon the US to try to solve the problems of others?  It's such a ridiculous double-standard.  Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Quote:

Plenty of other nations have universal healthcare.
Taxpayers in the US already pay billions to care for those who do not have health insurance.
'Obama's health care plan includes implementing guaranteed eligibility for affordable health care for all Americans, paid for by insurance reform, reducing costs, removing patent protection for pharmaceuticals, and required employer contributions.' (www.barackobama.com)
As for the cost, this is the main reason alot of the population doesn't have health insurance in the first place.


Yet again, the president can't do anything here.  Such a plan would have to come from Congress.  Paid for by insurance reform?  When exactly will this reformation occur?  Removing patent protection?  As a lawyer himself, Senator Obama should understand the foolishness of such a statement.  What's the incentive to develop new drugs if there isn't money to be made from it?  I know it sounds harsh but let's face it:  Pharmecutical companies aren't in the business to help people.  It sounds cynical but can you remember the last time a disease was cured?  I have allergies and I take a pill every day for it.  A box of 30 of them costs around $20.  That really starts to add up with millions of people suffering.  If allergies are cured, there goes all that wonderful profit.  From a business perspective, it'd be absolutely foolish to do anything but treat diseases.  As to the required employer contributions, I can see that.  I can also see salaries dropping exponentially to pick up for the increased costs.  

Quote:
It's not so much where the power of final word lies but the position of the president and his/her support and lobbying that counts in this situation.


The president can support who he wants but, yet again, it's not up to him.  Congress must be willing to act if our economy is going to turn around.

Quote:

Nuclear reactors are good sources of power but aren't a sustainable solution to the US energy crisis.
Innovation and improved energy efficiency and less dependency on oil are stressed, rather than having a running mate who denies climate change and promotes oil drilling and vouchers to ease the oil problem


The problem with the energy issue, yet again, is Congress.  Being such a ponderous and overly-cautious institution, there won't be any radical changes in alternative energy any time soon.  The president can say he wants this and that until he's blue in the face and it doesn't mean anything.

Quote:

In 2007 Obama introduced a bill promoting the development of much needed plug-in electric cars and hybrids.
These cars are the future.


Ah, and here's the real clincher.  Senator Obama introduced a bill.  If he were president, he'd submit proposals.  It's a clever way to avoid responsibility really.  Let's say Senator Obama gets elected and he wants to follow through with his promise of economic reform.  He'll appoint someone to research the various options, have them draft a proposal, and then submit it to Congress.  Congress will then dissect, subtract, add, and modify until it barely resembles the original proposal and is ultimately voted down.  The president will then say how he wanted to fix the economy but the Republicans in Congres rpevented it from happening.  This gives the population the impression the president cares while letting him right off the hook.

All of the promises of the candidates really don't amount to much.  They can't magically fix the economy, create universal health care, fix the environment, develop new energy alternatives, etc, etc.  All they tell us is what they think will get them elected.
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TitaniumAlloy
TitaniumAlloy


Honorable
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posted September 09, 2008 04:11 AM

It wasn't my intention to get into an argument over the worth of the president.
Just that Obama is a better candidate than McCain in that regard.
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Moonlith
Moonlith


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
posted September 09, 2008 08:36 AM

Quote:
It doesn't matter whether he supports it or not.  The issue of what's to be done with guns is for Congress to decide.  And who shoots the innocent people?  Criminals and criminals will find a way to harm people with or without guns.

Or little kids that happen to find daddy's gun in a drawner But hey, you don't hear me complaining, I love having something fun to watch on efukt.com.

Gun = responsibility.
Most people =/= responsibility.

Simple.

Quote:
Frankly, I really don't care what's going on Darfur.  Yeah, it's horrible, but if the US gets involved people are just going to complain we're meddling in someone else's affairs.  And you never answered my question.  Why doesn't Australia get involved?  Why does it fall upon the US to try to solve the problems of others?  It's such a ridiculous double-standard.  Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

The point about Darfur is to illustrate America's hypocritical foreign policy. For some reason Iraq (which had nothing to do with 9/11) apparently qualified for invasion to bring "democracy and freedom", but Darfur is okay? LOL! Oh yeah I forgot, Darfur doesn't have any oil. duhr. "Freedom and democracy" XD!

Quote:
All of the promises of the candidates really don't amount to much.  They can't magically fix the economy, create universal health care, fix the environment, develop new energy alternatives, etc, etc.  All they tell us is what they think will get them elected.

Wow, actually something we agree on O.o
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Aquaman333
Aquaman333


Famous Hero
of the seven seas
posted September 09, 2008 11:19 AM
Edited by Aquaman333 at 11:19, 09 Sep 2008.

Quote:
Frankly, I really don't care what's going on Darfur.  Yeah, it's horrible, but if the US gets involved people are just going to complain we're meddling in someone else's affairs.  And you never answered my question.  Why doesn't Australia get involved?  Why does it fall upon the US to try to solve the problems of others?  It's such a ridiculous double-standard.  Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

"The point about Darfur is to illustrate America's hypocritical foreign policy. For some reason Iraq (which had nothing to do with 9/11) apparently qualified for invasion to bring "democracy and freedom", but Darfur is okay? LOL! Oh yeah I forgot, Darfur doesn't have any oil. duhr. "Freedom and democracy" XD!"

That bothers me. The world is so hypocritical when it comes to the countries we can and cannot help.  Iraq had a tyrant who was committing atrocities and we tried to help as we did in many other areas, but there's PLENTY of nations we haven't helped yet but those are the ones everyone brings up.  We're a single nation with a struggling economy, why don't you go invade Darfur and let us sit one out considering we've already helped infinite other nations. No all Europe does is throw money at countries so they can embezzle it to their higher ups and increase their military power. Seriously, you're acting like all the people from that movie Hancock (yes I am comparing America to a drunk will smith with super powers), you aren't just content with us using our world power status to help the world, you want to tell us HOW we have to help the world.  We don't HAVE to do anything. There are plenty of "Darfurs" across the world.  Once we help Darfur all you'll do is complain that we haven't helped Myanmar. In order to stay on topic, I will say that whoever gets elected they will not address Darfur because quite honestly we have our own problems we need to be focusing on right now.  Once we solve our problems we can do what everyone wants and wave our magic wand to solve the world's problems like you seem think we have the ability to do
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Minion
Minion


Supreme Hero
posted September 09, 2008 11:40 AM
Edited by Minion at 11:40, 09 Sep 2008.

LOLOLOL. I can't believe there are STILL people who believe that the war in Iraq was about defeating a tyrant. *tries to catch his breath* LOL. Just can't. But honestly, it is both funny and sad at the same time.
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Aquaman333
Aquaman333


Famous Hero
of the seven seas
posted September 09, 2008 02:05 PM

Quote:
LOLOLOL. I can't believe there are STILL people who believe that the war in Iraq was about defeating a tyrant. *tries to catch his breath* LOL. Just can't. But honestly, it is both funny and sad at the same time.


Was there a tyrant? Yes. Now he's gone. The initial reason wasn't to remove him but we did.

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Minion
Minion


Supreme Hero
posted September 10, 2008 06:10 AM

I wouldn't brag about the criminal act of invading another country. We can't even talk about the crisis of Iraq, because no one understands the vastness of this catastrophe. If I sau that 151,000 civilians have DIED, that is just a number. The reality is so much more horrible. In addition to the destroyed infrastucture and living condition that make baby jesus cry, there is about 5 million refugees who have no home because of the war. So go ahead and rejoice the "goodness" of this war.
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Mytical
Mytical

Hero of Order
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted September 10, 2008 06:22 AM
Edited by Mytical at 06:40, 10 Sep 2008.

I know as a MOD I am supposed to remain neutral in these things, but Minion no offense but I don't think you understand.  1st America did not go to war, it's government did.  2nd we America is trapped in a huge catch 22.

We don't help somebody, we are selfish, egotistical, and arrogant.

We do help somebody we are bullies, egotistical, and arrogant.

We don't give billions to some needy country we are selfish..well you get the idea.

We do..everything is fine..but we have internal problems that that money could go a long way to fixing.

Now I realize Iraq is a whole different kettle of fish.  However, again you must understand something.  When we first went in, we did so because of what we were told. Some people backed it, because of missinformation.  We stay in it because of the catch 22.  We leave and we have left a country tore apart with no government and no hope..and are the bad guys.  We stay and we are the bad guys period.

So tell me.  What exactly IS the right move? Leaving a country that is in shambles with no military, no leadership, just ripe for some neighboring country or despot to move in and take over?  We are in quicksand with no way out.  If somebody can come up with a SANE way out of this mess it would be a miricle.

So go ahead, think of us what you will.  Either way we are the bad guys.  Doesn't matter what we do.


Edit : It is easy to cast dispersions from the outside looking in.  Walk a mile in the shoes of the person who you are judging.  You might just change your mind.


Edit 2 : This is about the Us Presidential race..may want to get back on topic.  There is the USA Evil thread for other discussions about America.
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Minion
Minion


Supreme Hero
posted September 10, 2008 06:43 AM
Edited by Minion at 06:45, 10 Sep 2008.

No I do not think you are the bad guys. There are people like Obama you know But the ones of you who actually praise the war in Iraq as a good thing, those I just disagree with so heavily.. it may come out the wrong way. But you do wrong if you assume that the world first wanted your intervention - I did't see majority encouraging you to go to Iraq. In fact, it is the first war in history where protests have been rallied a long time even BEFORE it started.
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Minion
Minion


Supreme Hero
posted September 10, 2008 06:47 AM
Edited by Minion at 06:50, 10 Sep 2008.

10 issues about environment, Obama vs. McCain

So back on topic then Is the environment an issue when tou vote? When then you should read this, it is made by League of Conservation Voters.

10. Look to the future:  Senator Obama offers the most comprehensive energy plan of any Presidential nominee in history, it will end our dependence on foreign oil and create as many as 5,000,000 jobs.  Senator McCain’s plan continues the Bush Administration’s policy of appeasement to Big Oil, does nothing to reduce our dependence on oil, and isn’t as good as Paris Hilton’s.

9. You pollute, you pay: Obama and Biden support plan to make polluters pay for pollution credits and to clean up toxic waste.  McCain wants us to foot the bill for clean-up and to give polluters billions in tax breaks and subsidies.

8. Keeping us healthy: Obama and Biden have fought to keep our air and water clean. McCain has voted against clean water ten times and voted six times to make it harder for states and the EPA to keep our air clean.

7. Listening to the scientists: The Nobel Prize-winning Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change says that America must reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 80% by 2050 in order to avoid the worst effects of global warming.  Obama’s plan will reach that goal. McCain’s plan falls far short.

6. The record speaks for itself: Senator Barack Obama earned a lifetime environmental voting score of 86%.  Senator Biden earned an 83%.  Senator John McCain earned a 24% score.

5. Decisions are made by those who show up: In the last two years, John McCain missed EVERY SINGLE major vote on energy.  One vital 2007 bill, to move billions of dollars in tax credits from the oil industry to wind, solar and other clean energy sources, failed by one vote: John McCain’s.  Obama and Biden, also running for President, voted for it.

4. Saving money at the pump: Obama proposes to double the fuel efficiency of our cars in 18 years, reducing our oil consumption by at least 35% or 10 millions barrels per day.  McCain voted against increasing fuel efficiency in 2003 and 2005.  He missed the 2007 vote. Presumably, he ran out of gas.

3. We’re not alone:  For more than 20 years, Joe Biden has been at the forefront of the fight against global warming.  In 1986, he offered the first Senate bill to fight global warming pollution. Since then, he has been the Senate’s strongest voice for making America the international leader in reducing global warming pollution and exporting clean technology.

2. Higher standards: To create millions of new jobs, we must boost production of renewable electricity.  Obama plans create 25% of our electricity from clean energy by 2025.   McCain opposes any national renewable energy standard.

1. Judge him by his friends:  Senator McCain accepted more than $2 million from the oil and gas industry, more than half of that since he changed his position on offshore drilling last month.    His forthcoming plan to open America’s playgrounds and sandboxes to drilling is expected to net another $1.2 million.
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OmegaDestroyer
OmegaDestroyer

Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
posted September 10, 2008 12:30 PM
Edited by OmegaDestroyer at 03:00, 11 Sep 2008.

It's getting worse...

As to what Misty said I think a good analogy for how a lot of countries act towards the United States is similar to a parent/teenager dynamic.

Teenager: "Hey dad, I'm going to hang out with some friends.  Can I have $50?"
Dad: *hands over money* "Here you go.  So what are you guys going to do tonight?"
Teenager:  "Nothing."
Dad: "Nothing?  Why can't you tell me what you are going to do?"
Teenager:  "Stay out of my business!  God, why can't you people just leave me alone?!"

They love our money and resent us at the same time.

Quote:
10. Look to the future:  Senator Obama offers the most comprehensive energy plan of any Presidential nominee in history, it will end our dependence on foreign oil and create as many as 5,000,000 jobs.  Senator McCain’s plan continues the Bush Administration’s policy of appeasement to Big Oil, does nothing to reduce our dependence on oil, and isn’t as good as Paris Hilton’s.


They offer a plan.  Doesn't mean it will be approved.  The plan will end our dependence on foreign oil?  Just like that, huh?  I never knew the process was so quick and easy.

Quote:
9. You pollute, you pay: Obama and Biden support plan to make polluters pay for pollution credits and to clean up toxic waste.  McCain wants us to foot the bill for clean-up and to give polluters billions in tax breaks and subsidies.


Of course they support a plan.  It looks great to say you support such things.  Others felt the same way long ago and created the Environmental Protection Agency.  Currently, most pollutors pay now to clean up brown and super fund sites.

Quote:
8. Keeping us healthy: Obama and Biden have fought to keep our air and water clean. McCain has voted against clean water ten times and voted six times to make it harder for states and the EPA to keep our air clean.


They have fought to keep the air and water clean.  How?  Claims are worthless without support.  I notice the article gets really specific when McCain is mentioned yet remains quite vague when anything about Obama and Biden are stated.

Quote:
7. Listening to the scientists: The Nobel Prize-winning Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change says that America must reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 80% by 2050 in order to avoid the worst effects of global warming.  Obama’s plan will reach that goal. McCain’s plan falls far short.


Yet again, Obama's input on the matter won't mean much if he's elected.  It's not the president's call.  2050?  That should give Congress enough time to appoint a committee to deal with the issue.

Quote:
6. The record speaks for itself: Senator Barack Obama earned a lifetime environmental voting score of 86%.  Senator Biden earned an 83%.  Senator John McCain earned a 24% score.


Is Senator McCain a Nintendo factory all of a sudden?  What period does the lifetime environmental voting score cover is what I would like to know.  Does it cover the life of the US senate?  If that was the case, Senator Obama's only been in a few years.  Comparing his score with the relics doesn't mean much.  Comparing Biden alone would have been much more effective.

Quote:
5. Decisions are made by those who show up: In the last two years, John McCain missed EVERY SINGLE major vote on energy.  One vital 2007 bill, to move billions of dollars in tax credits from the oil industry to wind, solar and other clean energy sources, failed by one vote: John McCain’s.  Obama and Biden, also running for President, voted for it.


And all three of them have done such wonderful jobs in their role as Senators, using their entire time after being elected to campaign for office.  I'm glad they got elected not to do their job and waste their time campaiging.  I wonder how many votes all three of them have missed since they started running?

Quote:
4. Saving money at the pump: Obama proposes to double the fuel efficiency of our cars in 18 years, reducing our oil consumption by at least 35% or 10 millions barrels per day.  McCain voted against increasing fuel efficiency in 2003 and 2005.  He missed the 2007 vote. Presumably, he ran out of gas.


Yet again, so what?  I can propose we build a giant robot that runs on cotton candy.  Doesn't mean anything because it's up to Congress.

Quote:
3. We’re not alone:  For more than 20 years, Joe Biden has been at the forefront of the fight against global warming.  In 1986, he offered the first Senate bill to fight global warming pollution. Since then, he has been the Senate’s strongest voice for making America the international leader in reducing global warming pollution and exporting clean technology.


He certainly has been successful hasn't he?  Oh wait, no.  The only reason Biden is on the ticket is because Obama has very little foreign policy experience; not because of his concern for the environment.

Quote:
2. Higher standards: To create millions of new jobs, we must boost production of renewable electricity.  Obama plans create 25% of our electricity from clean energy by 2025.   McCain opposes any national renewable energy standard.


Senator Obama can't do anything in this respect aside from make a proposal.  Good luck getting Congress to approve it.  And isn't McCain for nuclear power?

Quote:
1. Judge him by his friends:  Senator McCain accepted more than $2 million from the oil and gas industry, more than half of that since he changed his position on offshore drilling last month.    His forthcoming plan to open America’s playgrounds and sandboxes to drilling is expected to net another $1.2 million.


Funny how the article omitted any information about Obama's friends.  Does he not have any?

Since this is a campaign of change (as alleged by both candidates), I'd love to see both stop using smear campaigns and act like respectable adults this election.  Like that will ever happen...

Lastly, these are the powers of the President:

1) Acts as Commander in Chief, which includes during war time and in defense of the nation.
2) In emergency situations, can create executive orders to carry out objectives, so long as Congress hasn't acted or explicitally restricted the President from acting.
3) Can appoint principal officers, with the advice and consent of Congress.  
5) Can remove senior executive officials and may be limited by Congress in doing so.
4) Can pardon inviduals convicted of federal offenses.
5) Can meet with heads of states and ambassadors.
6) Can enter into executive agreements with foreign countries.  Congress can overrule such agreements.
7) Can enter into treaties with foreign nations which must be ratified by 2/3 of Congress.

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Vexon
Vexon


Adventuring Hero
posted September 10, 2008 01:11 PM

Quote:
I think a good analogy for how a lot of countries act towards the United States is similar to a parent/teenager dynamic.

Teenager: "Hey dad, I'm going to hang out with some friends.  Can I have $50?"
Dad: *hands over money* "Here you go.  So what are you guys going to do tonight?"
Teenager:  "Nothing."
Dad: "Nothing?  Why can't you tell me what you are going to do?"
Teenager:  "Stay out of my business!  God, why can't you people just leave me alone?!"

They love our money and resent us at the same time.


Oh yes, 'your' 3 trillion dollar debt is really appealing for foreign funding. You're a debted nation to Mexico. America hasn't given any nation any of their own money since the 50's, since none of it is theirs of itself.

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angelito
angelito

Hero of Order
proud father of a princess
posted September 11, 2008 02:47 AM

Quote:
They love our money and resent us at the same time.
Even though I know this phrase pretty well (germany is known as a "payer" aswell, the biggest in the EU), it only shows half the truth.
Who "paid" Osama bin Laden before who grew too strong? Who supported Saddam before who became such a tyrant? And so on....

Maybe the US just puts its money on the wrong horse lately?..
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TitaniumAlloy
TitaniumAlloy


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
posted September 11, 2008 02:49 AM
Edited by TitaniumAlloy at 02:59, 11 Sep 2008.

OD we understand your position on the power of the president.

However if it comes down to a decision between two candidates, we might as well vote for the one who has more favourable positions on these matters.

If he/she is unable to act upon these positions, then it makes no difference. But in the cases where it does make a difference we want it to be the right one.
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OmegaDestroyer
OmegaDestroyer

Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
posted September 11, 2008 02:58 AM

I think if you are going to be stuck with two people, might as go with the one who has the experience.  After all, President Bush wasn't very experienced coming into office and look how things are now.
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TitaniumAlloy
TitaniumAlloy


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
posted September 11, 2008 03:10 AM
Edited by TitaniumAlloy at 03:13, 11 Sep 2008.

Yeah but McCain has spooky similarities to Bush anyway.
Just look at his positions on abortion, the judges he would appoint, interrogation and human rights (wire tapping), tax cuts, iran, north korea and even the Iraq war, health care and the economy.


It can't hurt to have a candidate who has better positions than the other.
But it can help, alot, potentially.




Quote:
And isn't McCain for nuclear power?

Nuclear power isn't renewable.
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OmegaDestroyer
OmegaDestroyer

Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
posted September 11, 2008 03:27 AM
Edited by OmegaDestroyer at 03:30, 11 Sep 2008.

You got me on the energy thing.  Not really my strong point.

As to who's positions are better depends entierly on the individual.  With McCain, you pretty much get what you expect; an old bulldog.  With Obama, Americans get to watch another President break most of their campaign promises.  Don't get me wrong, I don't have any faith McCain will keep most of his if elected either.  I wish both candidates had enough respect for Americans so as not to insult us with a barrage of empty claims and false hope.  Sadly, it works though, yet I can't say I'm surprised when more people know how Paula Abdul acted on American Idol than what happened with the latest international crisis.  
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TitaniumAlloy
TitaniumAlloy


Honorable
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Professional
posted September 11, 2008 05:04 AM

Nuclear power is where I don't 100% agree with Obama, but he's right there needs to be a push for renenable energy, not just replaced with nuclear.



Obama's empty promises?

Obama has a vision that I think is reasonable. Maybe compared the last couple runs of presidents it seems unreasonable to actually know what America needs

McCain's vision for the future of America is largely unsupported.

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 11, 2008 08:24 AM

Nuclear fission is the best form of energy. Unlike coal and oil, it doesn't pollute, and unlike solar and wind, it's actually efficient.
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